UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

This is not the whole story at all. The EU harmonised pre-existing European standards. It facilitated the development of new standards. And some would say that it introduced quite a lot of unnecesssary standards just to make sure the salaried bureaucrats were kept busy.

 

All developed countries have standards, and most developing countries too. Standards are not an EU invention or monopoly!

Obviously you find it difficult to remain in context. The EU has established standards for those that wish to trade have to comply with, irrespective of what you may think.

In the 80's I sat on a BSI committee and am perfectly aware how inadequate they were. The government were reluctant to impose standards on industry and were more than happy to let the EU do it and take the flak. Very easy then to blame rising costs on EU bureaucracy.

The very first CE certificate issued by Calor Gas Ltd has my name on it and I can assure that the cost involved was extremely significant to the company involved, but then what value would you put on preventing accidental death. I can also say the company complained bitterly over having to adhere to the regulations, they would have been quite happy to keep things as they were, both them and Joe Public ignorant of the potential consequences.

It is quite obvious that you and many others would have preferred things to remain as they were, the EU for all its faults transformed the UK for the better and safer place, but its a fact of life that the discontented need something to blame.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually I would say that the 5 factors I mentioned are all existential threats to the EU, and far more significant than most of the scare stories about exit. 

 

And no, I haven't gotten off the fence. I'm equally happy with leave or remain, though I am not impressed with the way that many of the remainers comport themselves on this thread. I thought it was the exiters who were supposed to be churlish and boorish and uneducated - doesn't seem so from this thread.

 

 I'm just putting a different case from the one inside your echo chamber.

 

 

We await with baited breath your list of reasons to be cheerful.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

8 hours ago, oilinki said:

I'm not sure why Bloomberg has an urge to say that EU wishes to keep close ties with UK. Why should we? 

 

What's the carrot for EU for not treating UK as any other physically close foreign power like Turkey or Libya?

 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-29/u-k-s-raab-to-meet-barnier-for-talks-on-friday-brexit-update?

I imagine it must be nice to inhabit a fantasy land. Send us a post card why don't ya? ?

Edited August 30, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[welovesundaysatspace]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

the remainers who cannot  accept the result of the referendum.

Stop spreading nonsense. Everyone is accepting the result of the referendum. You’re just trying to use that to make people give up their cause. That’s not going to happen of course. 

[My Thai Life]

2 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Stop spreading nonsense. Everyone is accepting the result of the referendum.

Eh? Read this thread. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

13 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Eh? Read this thread. 

Exactly. Reading this thread, I see let’s of Brexiteers trying to use the referendum result to tell Remainers to give up their cause. That’s pretty anti-democratic. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[My Thai Life]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

I'm a consultant engineer. Believe me, red tape is good. Ask the Grenfell Tower residents. Oh, yes. You need red tape to protect the synaptically challenged AND non specialists everywhere.

 

So I want MEGA upside TANGIBLE benefits to compensate for the REAL TANGIBLE losses coming in exchange for some wispy dreamy ideas of a bygone age when men were gentlemen and women were grateful!

 

Gin anyone?

Synaptically challenged ? Surely you are aware of the connection between alcohol, whether cheap whisky with a pheasant on the label, or gin, on synaptic damage, and on aggressive abusive behaviour. 

 

Regarding your demand for tangible benefits, as I have explained to you at least 4 times on this thread, it's academic to talk about tangible benefits until there is a tangible agreement. Because the benefits will depend upon the agreement. That is why I gave you several categories of benefits, rather than specific examples which are impossible to provide at present.

 

You are happier inside the EU, ok I accept that; the majority decided they are happier outside the EU, ok I accept that.

 

You will have to accept it sooner or later too, so why not get some practice now. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[SheungWan]

The form of Brexit is subject to the approval of Parliament. That is the legal position. No getting round that irrespective of self-appointed Tribunes of the People venting away.

[My Thai Life]

 

56 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The form of Brexit is subject to the approval of Parliament. That is the legal position. No getting round that irrespective of self-appointed Tribunes of the People venting away.

100% agree about the venting, even though it's understandable.

 

Yes, Parliament has a "meaningful vote". But even that seems to be a bit more contentious than might appear at face value, as this piece from The Guardian 2 months ago suggests.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/28/parliament-may-not-have-time-approve-brexit-deal-mps-warn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Synaptically challenged ? Surely you are aware of the connection between alcohol, whether cheap whisky with a pheasant on the label, or gin, on synaptic damage, and on aggressive abusive behaviour. 

 

Regarding your demand for tangible benefits, as I have explained to you at least 4 times on this thread, it's academic to talk about tangible benefits until there is a tangible agreement. Because the benefits will depend upon the agreement. That is why I gave you several categories of benefits, rather than specific examples which are impossible to provide at present.

 

You are happier inside the EU, ok I accept that; the majority decided they are happier outside the EU, ok I accept that.

 

You will have to accept it sooner or later too, so why not get some practice now. 

Grouse has been my tipple of choice for many years; I am now drifting toward Monkey Shoulder.

 

You are quite wrong concerning benefits. Would you place a bet not knowing what you could win? I don't think so.

 

No, for any gamble, there must be a clear upside which exceeds the downside

 

You have provided plenty of fluff in your loquacious way but little detail of the tangible upside of Brexit.

 

Next....

[melvinmelvin]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

We COULD do it, but why?

 

Giz a job...

 

in today's Bangkok post there is, page 7, a highly inaccurate piece of text about this,

for all I know maybe it is the UK source that is highly inaccurate

 

to be led by UK space agency supported by the ministry of defence - it says

 

a very competent team of radiocommunication regulatory experts from Ofcom would be crucial,

no mentioning of that

 

a so called expert is quoted as saying could be ready within 5 years 

if everything goes unexpectedly smooth, you just might do it in 10 years, might

 

galileo and gps are mentioned, no mentioning of the new excellent glonass from russia

 

by the way, these animals are services - not systems

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I imagine it must be nice to inhabit a fantasy land. Send us a post card why don't ya? ?

Says supporter of post Brexit fantasy land.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

You're going well off track here Sandy. It's clear that the most discontented people on this thread are the remainers who cannot  accept the result of the referendum.

 

As for myself, I have said many times I would have been equally content with a leave or a remain vote. And I would have accepted either.

 

But leave won. and you still can't accept it. Your discontent is palpable.

Palpable? It's tangible!

 

Brexit is idiotic and an excellent example of why it is a mistake to ask the masses for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!

[My Thai Life]

Grouse, I have given you half a dozen categories of benefits. And I have explained 5 times now that it's impossible to discuss tangible benefits in the absence of a tangible agreement, despite you stamping your foot. I am more than happy that you don't share my opinion.

 

So far I haven't seen you make a single case on this thread, other than copy, paste and one liners. Even these are far outnumbered by your taunts and other abusive behaviour, strange from someone who likes to trumpet his professional acumen.

 

Have a good day, the sun's already over the yardarm.

[SteveB2]

The EU... So predictable!

Oh dear, the popular vote didn't go the right way. 

Better get the Peasants to vote again ?

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Regarding your demand for tangible benefits, as I have explained to you at least 4 times on this thread, it's academic to talk about tangible benefits until there is a tangible agreement. Because the benefits will depend upon the agreement.

That’s just a very lame way of admitting that you cant offer anything substantial. You don’t need to know the final agreement in order to analyze the outcome of potential agreements. That’s why the leave position doesn’t have any credibility. Whereas the remain side produces excellent pieces of fact-based and logically sound analysis, all you hear from leave is castles in the sky and irrelevant emotions, or nothing at all. Calling a thoroughly thought through approach to something so complex and important “academic” just shows the whole incompetence and ignorance of leave. Jumping eyes shut from the cliff. 

 

Quote

That is why I gave you several categories of benefits, rather than specific examples which are impossible to provide at present.

It is impossible to provide because there aren’t any benefits that are significant enough that they would outweigh the disadvantages and damages. Categories of benefits? What a nice euphemism for fluff. 

 

27 minutes ago, SteveB2 said:

The EU... So predictable!

Oh dear, the popular vote didn't go the right way. 

Please provide a source for those accusations (I.e. where something has been “ignored” or “made to vote again”). 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Palpable? It's tangible!

 

Brexit is idiotic and an excellent example of why it is a mistake to ask the masses for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!

 

not sure, but I kinda assume that you don't object to the masses partaking in GEs

 

is a referendum and a GE fundamentally different?

 

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The form of Brexit is subject to the approval of Parliament. That is the legal position. No getting round that irrespective of self-appointed Tribunes of the People venting away.

Very true, but we can all be sure that MPs want to be re-elected at the next GE - and the majority of constituencies voted 'leave'.

 

This leaves their MPs very vulnerable if they agree to a 'brexit in name only' deal.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Grouse, I have given you half a dozen categories of benefits. And I have explained 5 times now that it's impossible to discuss tangible benefits in the absence of a tangible agreement, despite you stamping your foot. I am more than happy that you don't share my opinion.

 

So far I haven't seen you make a single case on this thread, other than copy, paste and one liners. Even these are far outnumbered by your taunts and other abusive behaviour, strange from someone who likes to trumpet his professional acumen.

 

Have a good day, the sun's already over the yardarm.

To be fair, Grouse (like yourself) did go to the effort of providing a list of the benefits (in his opinion, of course), of remaining within the eu on a previous 'general' brexit thread.

 

Otherwise, I agree with you.

Edited August 30, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

not sure, but I kinda assume that you don't object to the masses partaking in GEs

 

is a referendum and a GE fundamentally different?

 

"is a referendum and a GE fundamentally different?"

 

Only in so far as a GE is based on constituencies - whereas referendums are based on actual votes cast by all those that voted.

Edited August 30, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

in today's Bangkok post there is, page 7, a highly inaccurate piece of text about this,

for all I know maybe it is the UK source that is highly inaccurate

 

to be led by UK space agency supported by the ministry of defence - it says

 

a very competent team of radiocommunication regulatory experts from Ofcom would be crucial,

no mentioning of that

 

a so called expert is quoted as saying could be ready within 5 years 

if everything goes unexpectedly smooth, you just might do it in 10 years, might

 

galileo and gps are mentioned, no mentioning of the new excellent glonass from russia

 

by the way, these animals are services - not systems

 

forgot to say this;

have been looking a bit here and there on www re these services

 

I think I can distinguish the smell of a French rat here, my guess is that French private sector are all arms and legs and put hard pressure

on who and whatever to  push the UK out

too many in frogland tend to view Galileo as their service

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Palpable? It's tangible!

 

Brexit is idiotic and an excellent example of why it is a mistake to ask the masses for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!

Personally, I'd apply your example in the opposite direction.

 

i.e. 'It is a mistake to rely on MPs to be more knowledgeable than the electorate' on most issues -and I wouldn't ask them "for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!"

 

They (almost invariably) become MPs to pursue their own power and wealth.

 

IMO of course, but I doubt many would disagree ☹️

Edited August 30, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The form of Brexit is subject to the approval of Parliament. That is the legal position. No getting round that irrespective of self-appointed Tribunes of the People venting away.

 

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

100% agree about the venting, even though it's understandable.

Yes, Parliament has a "meaningful vote". But even that seems to be a bit more contentious than might appear at face value, as this piece from The Guardian 2 months ago suggests.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/28/parliament-may-not-have-time-approve-brexit-deal-mps-warn

If Parliament does not like the procedure then it can take decisions to counteract the outcome if it so wishes. The likely outcome right now is that the PM will play for a last-minute decision-making process to avoid both the Hard Brexiteers and the Remain camp from having sufficient time to mobilise an effective rebellion.

Edited August 30, 2018 by SheungWan

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

not sure, but I kinda assume that you don't object to the masses partaking in GEs

 

is a referendum and a GE fundamentally different?

 

Yes, fundamentally different and this is the crux of the matter.

 

Referendums ask people directly for a decision or to approve a decision already taken.

 

A general election asks constituents to chose someone who will take decisions in their best interest.

 

Note the key difference; that which is in your best interest may not be what you declare or even believe! Be careful who you elect!

 

Hanging is the classic example. A referendum what probably be pro, MPs clearly are against.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Personally, I'd apply your example in the opposite direction.

 

i.e. 'It is a mistake to rely on MPs to be more knowledgeable than the electorate' on most issues -and I wouldn't ask them "for a direct opinion more complex than what's for lunch!"

 

They (almost invariably) become MPs to pursue their own power and wealth.

 

IMO of course, but I doubt many would disagree ☹️

So you favour anarchy? Maybe you should push for a different form of government? Multi party coalitions have much to recommend them IMO.

 

I do agree that the current bunch of MPs do not impress except for a small minority.

 

I do not think MPs salaries and expenses are excessive

Edited August 30, 2018 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Very true, but we can all be sure that MPs want to be re-elected at the next GE - and the majority of constituencies voted 'leave'.

This leaves their MPs very vulnerable if they agree to a 'brexit in name only' deal.

The description 'Brexit in name only' is your and other Hard Brexiteer's description. MPs make decisions based on a number of considerations which one can argue about. Again, the point remains that the decisions are the responsibility of Parliament. How they vote is their decision. If they are considering their vulnerability, it will be to the next election, not to the past referendum and if the wind has changed, so might they.

[My Thai Life]

9 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Again, the point remains that the decisions are the responsibility of Parliament

You seem to be very categorical about this. But I don't think that events surrounding this referendum support such a black and white view. It was never a foregone conclusion what precise role Parliament would have. And it still isn't, as per my Guardian link earlier today.

 

Moreover, the government promised to enact the referendum decision: I posted an image of that promise a week or two ago. Of course the hard remainers are still not convinced. They still won't be even after the deed is done!

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

You seem to be very categorical about this. But I don't think that events surrounding this referendum support such a black and white view. It was never a foregone conclusion what precise role Parliament would have. And it still isn't, as per my Guardian link earlier today.

Moreover, the government promised to enact the referendum decision: I posted an image of that promise a week or two ago. Of course the hard remainers are still not convinced. They still won't be even after the deed is done!

Nothing to do with black, white or pink views. Parliament has primary responsibility in such matters. Whether it chooses to exercise or impose those responsibilities is for Parliament to decide. What any government promises or not at any time is subject to the subsequent will of Parliament.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

You seem to be very categorical about this. But I don't think that events surrounding this referendum support such a black and white view. It was never a foregone conclusion what precise role Parliament would have. And it still isn't, as per my Guardian link earlier today.

 

Moreover, the government promised to enact the referendum decision: I posted an image of that promise a week or two ago. Of course the hard remainers are still not convinced. They still won't be even after the deed is done!

What the government, or anyone else promises, is trumped by what Parliament decides.  This was evidential when the Government attempted to enact Article 50 by circumventing Parliament. Acts of Parliament have supremacy- only Parliament can make or amend laws.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Nothing to do with black, white or pink views. Parliament has primary responsibility in such matters. Whether it chooses to exercise or impose those responsibilities is for Parliament to decide. What any government promises or not at any time is subject to the subsequent will of Parliament.

Just reiterating your black and white views does not make the reality of the brexit referendum and its implementation black and white.

Edited August 30, 2018 by My Thai Life