UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

If the case for Brexit is zero, then why has Corbyn refused to line up the Labour Party firmly on the Remain side?

I could answer that....

 

He's a duplicitous Trotskyist idiot who cares naught for the country just outmoded socialist ideals.

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, oilinki said:

And because this close co-operation has been extremely good for Britain, Brexit must happen? Makes perfect sense, not.

 

On sociological / psychological front the daddies who came back from war were highly damaged individuals and so were the moms back home. War is not easy.

 

I guess this damage was passed to the boomers, who got an irreversible hate against Germans. That's understandable. Later generations have healed from the war wounds and are able see the future, without constantly clinging to the past horrors. That might be one reason for the generation cap on Brexit votes.

It looks like guesswork is your forte.  

[nauseus]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

In all fairness, Nauseus posted a list. Mostly intangibles except that we would save the membership fees. This is true but I think the fees are modest

Yes, in Grouse's World for anything to really count it has to be tangible and that a nation's ability to have full sovereign control over itself is quite unnecessary, irrelevant and a trifling nuisance.

 

I do agree that club fees are way down the list, however. 

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, Corbyn will have to force the People's Vote option. The CONs will do anything to avoid an election.

"...have to"? This is a total non-starter. Corbyn on this issue is a dead parrot in the middle of the road blocking all the traffic.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

"...have to"? This is a total non-starter. Corbyn on this issue is a dead parrot in the middle of the road blocking all the traffic.

Ido understand but he has painted himself into a corner. I don't think they can force an election AND, neither Chequers or No Deal meet his 6tests, what other choice does he have ?

[billd766]

1 hour ago, aright said:

 

 

Are you suffering from cognitive loss (medication and therapy is available) In answer to your question  "what is GOOD about Brexit?" you have been given seven imo good reasons and have not addressed one but continue to make one line snide, conjectured hypotheses which stagnates the debate.

It would be helpful if you could address these points as a constructive argument. If you ask questions it's reasonable to expect you answer questions...……..I look forward to constructive answers.

  

 

He is just another troll and not worth responding to. I put him on my ignore list a while ago. If you ignore him and starve him of a response he will eventually go away. He may return though under a different name but the same style.

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, in Grouse's World for anything to really count it has to be tangible and that a nation's ability to have full sovereign control over itself is quite unnecessary, irrelevant and a trifling nuisance.

 

I do agree that club fees are way down the list, however. 

In my world it's OK to trade some sovereignty for the greater good. Not all of course, some. If we had no sovereignty we would not be in this bind.

[bristolboy]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, in Grouse's World for anything to really count it has to be tangible and that a nation's ability to have full sovereign control over itself is quite unnecessary, irrelevant and a trifling nuisance.

 

I do agree that club fees are way down the list, however. 

Every time a nation signs a treaty it loses some sovereignty. So I'm guessing post-Brexit the UK will be signing deals which oblige it to do nothing except accept privileges.

[SheungWan]

Just now, Grouse said:

Ido understand but he has painted himself into a corner. I don't think they can force an election AND, neither Chequers or No Deal meet his 6tests, what other choice does he have ?

Corbyn is not sitting there considering viable options for Brexit/Remain.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

No, it's not about Parliament agreeing with me is, it's about Parliament accepting what was voted for in 2016. Something they, in the main, have refused to do, hence why we are where we are.

Re the cake and eat it thing, this is a negotiation, or at least it's supposed to be. Of course, as a starting point, you ask for everything, the opposite side offers nothing, and then you meet somewhere in the middle. That's how negotiations work. And if the other side won't budge from offering nothing, you get up and walk away. Simple.

Problem here is Parliament is mainly full of people trying to row backwards; then you have the few who are rowing in the right direction, as per the referendum, but in a half-hearted manner without conviction and forever trying to appease those rowing backwards; and then you have an even smaller group who are rowing full steam ahead but who either don't have the balls or don't have the opportunity to take command of the boat. In short, it's a mess. And when I say "it", I mean Parliament.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

No, you are quite wrong there. Things are not as you may wish. Parliament can do anything it wishes. MPs are duty bound to vote "in the best interests" of their constituents. That may not be what constituents state.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

It's interesting that even when we were in the EUSSR and London was the financial centre of the world they still choose Frankfurt for the home of the ECB. Tells you all you need to know about who rules Europe now.

The Euro?

[SheungWan]

43 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I could answer that....

He's a duplicitous Trotskyist idiot who cares naught for the country just outmoded socialist ideals.

Well that may be good for general labelling, but insufficient for the specifics and why Remainers are foolish to put Corbyn in the Remain camp and push the current arguments as a straightforward Labour Vs Tory thing.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, aright said:

 

 

Are you suffering from cognitive loss (medication and therapy is available) In answer to your question  "what is GOOD about Brexit?" you have been given seven imo good reasons and have not addressed one but continue to make one line snide, conjectured hypotheses which stagnates the debate.

It would be helpful if you could address these points as a constructive argument. If you ask questions it's reasonable to expect you answer questions...……..I look forward to constructive answers.

  

Here's one reason why sensible people can't take your arguments seriously:

economy and cost - at least 9 billion Euros net per year is paid into the EU coffers by the UK and even Maggie Thatcher's rebate is likely to disappear soon. If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling. The Euro has already shown itself as being unfit for purpose for several of the countries with previously weaker national economies. The scale of money creation and bond buying by ECB is similar to that of the US after 2008. Many parts of the EU are still plagued by high debt and unemployment and the EU still has the worst economic performance in the developed world, despite attempts to slap some kind of tax on just about everything! Ultimately, if we stay in, the EU will no doubt request all of the assets of the B o E be transferred to the ECB - once the UK currency and assets are gone, then the UK economy is gone and there is no way back!

 

 

I particularly enjoy this piece of nonsense.

 

"If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling."

Really? How does that work? What mechanism will be invoked to force the UK to adopt the Euro?

This is the kind of self indulgent paranoia that characterizes so much of what the Brexiters think.

 

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No, you are quite wrong there. Things are not as you may wish. Parliament can do anything it wishes. MPs are duty bound to vote "in the best interests" of their constituents. That may not be what constituents state.

MPs are not duty bound to do anything very much other than take an oath on being admitted to Parliament.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

MPs are not duty bound to do anything very much other than take an oath on being admitted to Parliament.

That's rather nihilistic! I'll look into the oath...:

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I particularly enjoy this piece of nonsense.

 

"If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling."

Really? How does that work? What mechanism will be invoked to force the UK to adopt the Euro?

This is the kind of self indulgent paranoia that characterizes so much of what the Brexiters think.

Most Brexiteers know that this is nonsense. Probably someone unthinkingly copying some out of date stuff from a loon website.

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, SheungWan said:

Most Brexiteers know that this is nonsense. Probably someone unthinkingly copying some out of date stuff from a loon website.

The same goes for the nonsense about turning the EU into a United States of Europe. Some bureaucrats write this stuff but even the Germans and the French aren't going to want to assume budgetary responsibility for the poorer nations of Europe. And nowhere have I seen by what mechanisms those dastardly federalist in the EU are going to impose this.

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

That's rather nihilistic! I'll look into the oath...:

The oath has a chequered history as the default position has been taking an oath of Loyalty to the Queen and doing so on the Bible. The oath of loyalty is one reason why Sinn Fein MPs have never taken their seats in Parliament. You might also look up Charles Bradlaugh on the Bible issue.

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

MPs are not duty bound to do anything very much other than take an oath on being admitted to Parliament.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmmodern/337/33706.htm

 

This explains things quite nicely

Edited September 14, 2018 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmmodern/337/33706.htm

Yes, well, we know what people should do, but in practice the MP can spend all day in the pub. Can't get past taking an oath though.

[bristolboy]

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

He is just another troll and not worth responding to. I put him on my ignore list a while ago. If you ignore him and starve him of a response he will eventually go away. He may return though under a different name but the same style.

Interesting. You put someone on an ignore list and then claim that person eventually go away. How would you know that someone on your ignore list has gone?

[rixalex]

No, you are quite wrong there. Things are not as you may wish. Parliament can do anything it wishes. MPs are duty bound to vote "in the best interests" of their constituents. That may not be what constituents state.

Of course they can do as they wish. Where did I state otherwise? This isn't about what they can or can not do. This is about what they SHOULD do.

Respect democracy as I believe. Disregard it as you believe.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

I had to assume that your response was to my 2368 because it was displayed above it and that was what you misquoted. You are choosing to ignore that. 

There was no misquote, get over it.

[sandyf]

Standards, certification and approvals have never meant anything to brexiteers, as far as they are concerned it is all project fear.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-uk-cars-vehicles-ban-eu-trade-export-europe-sales-a8536076.html

[tebee]

No matter what the Brexiters say, no deal Brexit will be a disaster.

 

The problem is no one has any idea how to make a deal that will be accepted by enough people to get it implemented.

 

Where do we go from here ?

 

probably onward towards disaster..... 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Yes, well, we know what people should do, but in practice the MP can spend all day in the pub. Can't get past taking an oath though.

Well it seems that many, most even, do not understand an MPs responsibilities.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

Of course they can do as they wish. Where did I state otherwise? This isn't about what they can or can not do. This is about what they SHOULD do.

Respect democracy as I believe. Disregard it as you believe.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I respect the system as is, not how I would prefer. I have told you what an MPs responsibilities are in an article above. Representative democracy works well and provides a useful filter for obvious reasons. Read up on it ?

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

"...have to"? This is a total non-starter. Corbyn on this issue is a dead parrot in the middle of the road blocking all the traffic.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1s7gko

[billd766]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Interesting. You put someone on an ignore list and then claim that person eventually go away. How would you know that someone on your ignore list has gone?

 

Because I would no longer see that persons posts on replies to other peoples posts. When People are put on my ignore list I don't see any of their post though there is a notification asking me if I want to see this post or all posts. If I don't see that and it is a thread where I have seen the poster before then either he has not responded to somebody elses thread or he has gone away.

 

I can also look up his name in my ignore list and see when he last posted.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

In my world it's OK to trade some sovereignty for the greater good. Not all of course, some. If we had no sovereignty we would not be in this bind.

Then I suppose it comes down to an individual's interpretation of what defines the "greater good". Obviously for most leave voters, by leaving the EU, we think that we will avoid an increasingly greater bad, if it is left to continue its project unchecked. Trade with common cooperation is fine but centralised political and economic control is not.