Nonsense English exam answers

[Chrisdoc]

I have been teaching/lecturing in schools for more that 30 years, both in the UK and here.  There is a real difference between conversational English and written English.  Members of forums such as this write in 'conversational English', i.e, 'spoken English' as opposed to 'written English' even though posts are written in fact. Maybe you should study 'context' and understand that it can run through a two way conversation without the need for repeating detail at every instance.

I was a music teacher but have never taught English. If I was on a forum recommending a certain music teacher and then they saw me playing my instrument and I played badly, do you think I could expect someone to accept my opinion? As I wrote to Duane, if we were discussing football I could understand but we are talking about a child's education. I can understand about conversational English but your comment about your daughter and the filipino is quite ambiguous and an obligation of conversation is that each person can understand what you are talking about whether in slang or polite conversation or it has no point. From the context of the thread. I can guess the filipino is a teacher. Whether you can have an in depth discussion with the teacher or your daughter is not obvious?

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[HHTel]

41 minutes ago, Chrisdoc said:

I was a music teacher but have never taught English. If I was on a forum recommending a certain music teacher and then they saw me playing my instrument and I played badly, do you think I could expect someone to accept my opinion? As I wrote to Duane, if we were discussing football I could understand but we are talking about a child's education. I can understand about conversational English but your comment about your daughter and the filipino is quite ambiguous and an obligation of conversation is that each person can understand what you are talking about whether in slang or polite conversation or it has no point. From the context of the thread. I can guess the filipino is a teacher. Whether you can have an in depth discussion with the teacher or your daughter is not obvious?

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The quality of 'English teachers' was being discussed, so when talking of a conversation, I think the inference was obvious to most.

[duanebigsby]

1 hour ago, Chrisdoc said:

I was a music teacher but have never taught English. If I was on a forum recommending a certain music teacher and then they saw me playing my instrument and I played badly, do you think I could expect someone to accept my opinion? As I wrote to Duane, if we were discussing football I could understand but we are talking about a child's education. I can understand about conversational English but your comment about your daughter and the filipino is quite ambiguous and an obligation of conversation is that each person can understand what you are talking about whether in slang or polite conversation or it has no point. From the context of the thread. I can guess the filipino is a teacher. Whether you can have an in depth discussion with the teacher or your daughter is not obvious?

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Internet forums are very informal conversations.  Often grammar is misused.

People are often replying after a couple of beers or in anger. Grammar gets left behind.

 

Your analogy of commenting on a music thread while playing badly  is poor. You could be a student who is struggling to learn the instrument, but recommend a teacher. 

 

I think you are over blowing a sentence I constructed  awkwardly..

 

PS. the quality of  playing of an instrument is subjective, so you should have said " I played poorly."

[stereolab]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Focus on external assessment. Anything internally assessed appears to be fatally corrupted in the local system.

As said above, worry not, any bits of paper issued by the school, may as well be put in the trash can. Do not bother putting your child in to any school run competition. The examination shown above says it all, no one could achieve 100% in such a flawed set of questions.

[My Thai Life]

I think I'll just go with the usual definition of Caucasian, based on the OED (Oxford English Dictionary):

 

Relating to the Caucasus

White-skinned; of European origin.

 

If I'd known "caucasian" was going to cause confusion, I would just have written "farang" ?

 

[duanebigsby]

15 hours ago, ozmeldo said:

I bank 30-35k a month M-F. Excluding large expenses.

 

It'sreally a myth that Bangkok is hugely more expensive. What

does your scooter or car and insurance cost? I have a small, tidy flat 5200b pm. Less than 10% of my gross pay.

I have a 3 bedroom 2 bath townhouse for 4k a month.

If I wanted a small tidy flat I'd pay 1800 baht pm.

I hate big cities. At this time I'd prefer less money and more peaceful life than I'd have in  Bangkok.

I'm glad you're loving it there though!

[HHTel]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I think I'll just go with the usual definition of Caucasian, based on the OED (Oxford English Dictionary):

 

Relating to the Caucasus

White-skinned; of European origin.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

 

Quote

Relating to one of the traditional divisions of humankind, covering a broad group of peoples from Europe, western Asia, and parts of India and North Africa.

 Also from the same dictionary, an alternative meaning:

 

Quote

North American White-skinned; of European origin.

 

A person from the Caucasus.

 

Isn't English wonderful..... lol

 

P.S.  Farang also covers black people sometimes referred to as 'farang dam'.

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by HHTel
Addition

[Chrisdoc]

Internet forums are very informal conversations.  Often grammar is misused.
People are often replying after a couple of beers or in anger. Grammar gets left behind.
 
Your analogy of commenting on a music thread while playing badly  is poor. You could be a student who is struggling to learn the instrument, but recommend a teacher. 
 
I think you are over blowing a sentence I constructed  awkwardly..
 
PS. the quality of  playing of an instrument is subjective, so you should have said " I played poorly."

I can understand the few beers part but I did find your initial posts abrasive hence my reaction. I know internet discussions are open but if you post in an edited manner it can often sound like you are trying to push over your point without consideration of other views.I don't think my analogy is bad as I was talking as a teacher not as a student. Regardless of your experience, mine is that the filipino teacher is terrible and there are other posts in the thread that seem to agree. I am sick of correcting the garbage that her filipino teacher puts out which made me react to the original post.

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[Chrisdoc]

The quality of 'English teachers' was being discussed, so when talking of a conversation, I think the inference was obvious to most.

Im sure you are a nice person and care for your students but I do think you should consider using more words in your posts. I do think you are setting yourself up for misunderstandings in your manner of posting. I do want to say again it is a sensitive point. I am talking about a young girl, who I treat like my daughter, being educated by incompetents.

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[SheungWan]

OK, so assuming the project is wanting one's child to progress in their mastery of English to a sufficient standard for acceptance to say UK university standard, what to do? Next step? Forget the inadequacies of the local school. It is a lost cause. There is probably one and only one way to go and that is via the British Council and IELTS. https://www.britishcouncil.or.th/en/english/ielts No idea how much it costs. PS, you can also check out which are their partner schools: https://www.britishcouncil.or.th/en/english/partner-school

Edited August 25, 2018 by SheungWan

[ozmeldo]

IELTS is prohibitively expensive for middle class and poor people. It's an assessment, there is no feedback.

 

Any competent teacher familiar with IELTS and CEFR should be able to assess students in broad terms, perhaps even narrow depending on a number of factors.

[My Thai Life]

From the OED: "In the racial classification developed by 19th-century anthropologists, Caucasian (or Caucasoid) included peoples whose skin colour ranged from light (in northern Europe) to dark (in parts of North Africa and India). Although the classification is outdated and the categories are now not generally accepted as scientific (see Mongoloid), the term Caucasian has acquired a more restricted meaning. It is now used, especially in the US, as a synonym for ‘white or of European origin’, as in the police are looking for a Caucasian male in his forties"

 

Actually we rarely hear the term "caucasian" in British English. I'm often tempted to say "persons of European descent", but it's a bit of a mouthful.

 

Anyway, to the OP, I truly sympathise with your position. I think it's a situation that all parents and teachers would recognise. There are terrible teachers here of all tribes, including the Caucasian tribe.

 

My daughter attends a standard Thai school, which we supplement with private lessons. Naturally she is way ahead in English, and at the top table in other subjects. I am confident that she will be able to attend an "NES" country university, preferably for MA, rather than BA.

 

I believe that for a Thai child this is a better option than an international school. I'm happy that others may have different opinions about this, and I'm not going to argue with them about it.

 

cheers all, have a good day

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by My Thai Life

[duanebigsby]

3 hours ago, Chrisdoc said:

I can understand the few beers part but I did find your initial posts abrasive hence my reaction. I know internet discussions are open but if you post in an edited manner it can often sound like you are trying to push over your point without consideration of other views.I don't think my analogy is bad as I was talking as a teacher not as a student. Regardless of your experience, mine is that the filipino teacher is terrible and there are other posts in the thread that seem to agree. I am sick of correcting the garbage that her filipino teacher puts out which made me react to the original post.

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My posts have never been abrasive.

I simply don't understand your response. You have been very grammar nazi  about this.

I stand by my assertion that there are many fine Filipino teachers  in Thailand.

Your daughter's teacher may be sub par, but you paint them all as bad.

Pull your daughter out of the class and send her elsewhere.

I suspect you won't be happy with any school.

[HHTel]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually we rarely hear the term "caucasian" in British English. I'm often tempted to say "persons of European descent", but it's a bit of a mouthful.

I do believe that races in the UK are referred to as Black, Asian, White etc, including the police.

[Chrisdoc]

My posts have never been abrasive.
I simply don't understand your response. You have been very grammar nazi  about this.
I stand by my assertion that there are many fine Filipino teachers  in Thailand.
Your daughter's teacher may be sub par, but you paint them all as bad.
Pull your daughter out of the class and send her elsewhere.
I suspect you won't be happy with any school.

I was trying to compromise and end the discussion. Abrasive is the wrong word. Arrogant and opiniated is more apt.

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[marty147]

On 8/20/2018 at 7:36 PM, mii maker said:

 Could anyone suggest any good, accurate grammar books written in English?  I wanna teach her grammar.

 

I have a selection of good PDF grammar books.

 

PM me and I can give you copies.

 

[Scott]

This topic is starting to go off-topic.    That's not a particularly big problem, provided people are civil to one another.  

 

I worked for a number of affiliated schools, (bilingual).   English grammar was taught by a Thai teacher and conversation was taught by a native English speaker, or near-native speaker.   Every effort was made to use a NES for conversation.   Filipino teachers were often employed as subject teachers and taught subjects such as math, science, social, PE, Health Ed, Music etc..

 

Once in a blue moon a Filipino teacher would teach English grammar (the subject generally taught by a Thai), but almost never did they teach English conversation.   This has started to change, and it's probably not for the better.

 

The NES did a reasonably good job of teaching, although a fully-qualified teacher with a degree in education was rare.   Quite rate.   The few that I supervised, did an excellent job.   Those with a TEFL also did quite well, but had more trouble with students and classes that were more challenging.   Those with only experience were next and those with no experience, no degree in education and no TEFL had the most trouble.   Turnover was high.  

 

The Filipino teachers were, for the most very, very good.   It was not difficult to find good teachers with a degree in education and they performed very well.   There was a lot of variation in their English skills from excellent to sub-par.   By and large, they were good, reliable teachers.   Turnover was low.  

 

Much of it is a matter of finding reasonably good teachers and then placing them where they can perform best and give them the resources to do the job and make necessary improvements and adjustments.

 

The proof tends to be in the end outcome.   For our students, most went on local Thai Universities, with a number of them enrolling in International programs, a few went to overseas Universities and did well.    A number went to local Universities and then to graduate school overseas.   Again they did quite well.  

 

I am in contact with a lot of the former students (a few who now have their own kids in our schools).   There English is excellent.   They speak, understand and write well.  

 

 

 

 

[BobbyL]

Classic Thailand. I have never met a Thai teacher who teaches English be competent at all.

 

My wife's cousin goes to St. Joseph's Convent which is a relatively reputable private school. Some of the English homework I see her do from a Thai teacher is utter nonsense. Some of the questions and answers actually make no sense at all. It is just laughable. 

[Scott]

Oh, there are  competent Thai English teachers.   I worked with several, including one who spent 3 months years ago living with a family in the UK -- not hearing a word of Thai during that stay.   She had also majored in English.   She supervises the foreign teachers, writes reports in English and recently made an extended trip to the US, traveling around with no other Thai speaker in site.  

 

But part of the problem is that the Thai English curriculum is geared toward some very pedantic and nonsensical issues surrounding grammar.   Many of them have extremely low relevance to spoken English.   I have read some of the exams she writes, which are from the book and several answers could be grammatically correct because the question is not specific enough to allow an absolute correct answer.   Very little of what is taught would be helpful in a conversation and even less importance and even more confusing in a written document.  

 

Without following the curriculum, the students will likely not pass the national exams.  

 

She conducts (at least with the older students) about 90% in English and 10% in Thai.   The Thai is geared toward explaining concepts that may not be present in Thai.   With younger learners the % of Thai is greater.   By the highest grades, I suspect it is about 98% in English.  

 

[ozmeldo]

On 8/28/2018 at 2:26 PM, BobbyL said:

Classic Thailand. I have never met a Thai teacher who teaches English be competent at all.

 

My wife's cousin goes to St. Joseph's Convent which is a relatively reputable private school. Some of the English homework I see her do from a Thai teacher is utter nonsense. Some of the questions and answers actually make no sense at all. It is just laughable. 

St Joe's is a decent school, she could do far worse. 

 

As all schools, there are a number of different programs and then there are different class levels based on prior ability. Maybe she's not that bright, or not that great a student and therefore doesn't warrant the best teachers.

 

 

 

A few of the girls at StJoes made it into finals of Dublin literary awards - which I doubt you have the writing chops to do even yourself.

 

The older Thai teachers might be ready to out to pasture, but I'm seeing lots of competent new teachers coming up through the ranks.

 

No excuse for crappy worksheets. Teacher doesn't know ftw.

 

A really indifferent BKK agency holds some of the falang teaching positions. Always hiring.

Edited August 31, 2018 by ozmeldo

[My Thai Life]

On 8/29/2018 at 2:45 AM, Scott said:

But part of the problem is that the Thai English curriculum is geared toward some very pedantic and nonsensical issues surrounding grammar.   Many of them have extremely low relevance to spoken English.

Where to start with this comment.

 

> There is no Thai English curriculum. There is a modern (or foreign) languages curriculum. It is a high level statement produced by some farang consultants quite a long while back. It is equally applicable to Chinese, Arabic, and other foreign languages taught in Thailand. It has no specific relevance to English or any other foreign language.

 

> Why should the Thai "curriculum" (see point 1 above) be geared to spoken English, rather than say academic or written English - the latter will obviously help them more in their academic careers; oh yes, to justify farangs "teaching" in government schools!

Edited August 31, 2018 by My Thai Life

[duanebigsby]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Where to start with this comment.

 

> There is no Thai English curriculum. There is a modern (or foreign) languages curriculum. It is a high level statement produced by some farang consultants quite a long while back. It is equally applicable to Chinese, Arabic, and other foreign languages taught in Thailand. It has no specific relevance to English or any other foreign language.

 

> Why should the Thai "curriculum" (see point 1 above) be geared to spoken English, rather than say academic or written English - the latter will obviously help them more in their academic careers; oh yes, to justify farangs "teaching" in government schools!

BS You need to learn speaking at the same time as writing and reading. Grammar should be last on the list.

How many Thai students can write a decent sentence, but can't for the life of them speak it?

Every post about teaching you point out how you hate farang English teachers, 

Good grief.

[My Thai Life]

10 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

BS You need to learn speaking at the same time as writing and reading. Grammar should be last on the list.

How many Thai students can write a decent sentence, but can't for the life of them speak it?

Every post about teaching you point out how you hate farang English teachers, 

Good grief.

All nice assertions (apart from the expletive), but they have nothing to do with my post. They are non sequiturs.

 

I don't hate farangs. I am one. I just happen to be one whose role in education doesn't involve "teaching" in government schools. This gives me a more impartial view. 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by My Thai Life

[duanebigsby]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

All nice assertions (apart from the expletive), but they have nothing to do with my post. They are non sequiturs.

 

I don't hate farangs. I am one. I just happen to be one whose role in education doesn't involve "teaching" in government schools. This gives me a more impartial view. 

 

I never said you hated farangs.

I said you hated any farang teaching English in Thailand.

You consistently mock them as not being real "teachers."

I don't understand why you think you're more impartial than everyone else.

[Andrew108]

My takeaway is that negative and demoralizing farang teaching staff should be avoided at all costs. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Andrew108

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   Please re-read the OP and stay on topic.  

 

 

[mii maker]

Does this exam have more than one correct answers or nonsense like the previous one?

Most questions and answers here seem to be sensible.

Ps. This paper hasn't got checked by her teacher yet.

Edited September 19, 2018 by mii maker

[My Thai Life]

On 8/31/2018 at 8:11 PM, duanebigsby said:

I said you hated any farang teaching English in Thailand.

You consistently mock them as not being real "teachers."

I don't understand why you think you're more impartial than everyone else.

I dont hate farangs teaching English in Thailand. I do loathe the hypocrisy of many of them.

 

Yes, most farangs teaching in government schools in Thailand are not "real" teachers in that they are not qualified teachers in their own country, and survive here on waivers for a few years. This is a simple fact which can be verified by reading this forum.

 

Re impartiality. It's not possible to discuss teaching in Thai government schools impartially if you are a teacher employed by a Thai government school, obviously. I do a lot of work with the MoE; I am very aware of MoE policies and standards, but I am not employed as a teacher in government schools. That's why I'm more impartial, and better informed.

Edited September 19, 2018 by My Thai Life

[duanebigsby]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I dont hate farangs teaching English in Thailand. I do loathe the hypocrisy of many of them.

 

Yes, most farangs teaching in government schools in Thailand are not "real" teachers in that they are not qualified teachers in their own country, and survive here on waivers for a few years. This is a simple fact which can be verified by reading this forum.

 

Re impartiality. It's not possible to discuss teaching in Thai government schools impartially if you are a teacher employed by a Thai government school, obviously. I do a lot of work with the MoE; I am very aware of MoE policies and standards, but I am not employed as a teacher in government schools. That's why I'm more impartial, and better informed.

Define qualified.

In Canada, US, and UK we have huge numbers of immigrants.

Governments trying to help them assimilate offer ESL classes in all sorts of community centres. There are thousands of language schools offering ESL courses, and the vast majority of these programs are satisfied by TEFL teachers. Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, etc all accept TEFL as being qualified to teach ESL courses.

Why must you insist the only people capable of teaching ESL in Thailand have BEd degrees?

If Thailand does that, kiss Native English Speakers from teaching English goodbye and watch the downward spiral of language education.

You may be more impartial, but if you've never experienced a Thai school classroom which hasn't been staged by MOE, you are not better informed.

 

[Slip]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I dont hate farangs teaching English in Thailand. I do loathe the hypocrisy of many of them.

 

Yes, most farangs teaching in government schools in Thailand are not "real" teachers in that they are not qualified teachers in their own country, and survive here on waivers for a few years. This is a simple fact which can be verified by reading this forum.

 

Re impartiality. It's not possible to discuss teaching in Thai government schools impartially if you are a teacher employed by a Thai government school, obviously. I do a lot of work with the MoE; I am very aware of MoE policies and standards, but I am not employed as a teacher in government schools. That's why I'm more impartial, and better informed.

 

"Yes, most farangs teaching in government schools in Thailand are not "real" teachers in that they are not qualified teachers in their own country, and survive here on waivers for a few years. This is a simple fact which can be verified by reading this forum."

 

You are correct.  They are TEFL teachers, and are paid accordingly.  Thailand must be the only county in the world who thinks they can pay unqualified teacher wage levels and expect fully qualified teachers.  The TCT has only made the problem worse with its actions over the last 10 years.  Experienced TEFL teachers have been forced out in favour of the 'waive survivors' you correctly identify.  They will learn in time perhaps, but only if they can improve the quality of their teachers.