How safe is chanote ownership?

[andressed]

I bought house and land in Rayong together with my Thai spouse and registrated a superficie so I'm owner of house. Registrated land deed in land office is chanote and as far I know it is not possible to achieve a more safe ownership. Recently we received a letter from a local army office where we was told to leave everything within 15 days because it was army land since 100 years ago. We will of course not accept this and first contact land office and also try find an experienced lawyer if necessary. If anybody have had similar experience and can give some advice i would be thankful to know. 

[LukKrueng]

There have been cases of falsified chanot documents. Did you have the land department office survey the plot? An actual official survey appointment might take time but it is the safest. You can pay an official to come sooner but that will not be official nor committing. someone bought a plot opposite mine and paid an official to survey the plot before closing the deal. After the purchase the owner next to her claimed that part of the plot was actually his and he just allowed the previous owner to use it. the new owner asked for an official survey and that was proven correct - part of the land she thought was hers wasn't....

[inThailand]

The issuing of false land documents was not uncommon in Phuket years ago. Does it still happen? You should get a title search, which entails getting the complete history of the title deed.

If I recall, on the front side of your title deed is the date it was issued. And the back shows the history of ownership. 

[KiChakayan]

Well, you got the answer. If your Chanote is genuine, it is as safe as your wife is...

[GreasyFingers]

I have been through this twice in the last 6 months with titles issued illegally.. Yes, there may be a chanote title but you really needed to check with the Land Office and Municipal Office before you purchased. In my case there was a line on the charting map of the area. East of the line the titles were genuine, west of the line the government could claim at any time without compensation. This involved hundreds of illegally issued titles.

Hope you can negotiate a settlement if the army proceeds with their claim.

[4MyEgo]

I will say it again, only invest as much as your prepared to lose when buying property in Thailand, i.e. usually no more than 10% of your worth.

 

Hope its sorted and in your favor, but for the army to serve you a notice tells me there is trouble brewing, hope I am wrong.

 

I also hope you went through a lawyer when you acquired the property, as there would certainly be a case in suing the lawyer, well it is Thailand, but without hope, your toast. 

 

Good luck sincerely 

[weegee]

Dont waste money on Lawyers....We have just been through the same situation as you, and as the lands Dept Head said, if you take it to Court you will lose, as the courts always follow what the Lands Dept states....

YOU CANNOT WIN !!!...accept it and build a cheap fence, in case they move the boundaries again at a later date...which is more than likely. We have documents dating back years and years but they took what they wanted....A chanote is now not worth the paper it's written on....

[rumak]

4 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

There have been cases of falsified chanot documents. Did you have the land department office survey the plot? An actual official survey appointment might take time but it is the safest. You can pay an official to come sooner but that will not be official nor committing. someone bought a plot opposite mine and paid an official to survey the plot before closing the deal. After the purchase the owner next to her claimed that part of the plot was actually his and he just allowed the previous owner to use it. the new owner asked for an official survey and that was proven correct - part of the land she thought was hers wasn't....

The land has been purchased already, so this wouldn't help now.  Definitely good advice about getting it measured.....though it is often done after the sale.  HOWEVER, if there is any doubt about boundaries

or authenticity that should be addressed BELORE buying .  

The situation with the OP is a bit "confusing", to say the least.  A chanote IS the best land ownership document and the Land Office is the dept. that issues them.  SO....if they changed ownership into your wife's name there should be no way it is not the real deal (or they would have told you).  BUT,  getting to

the bottom of a problem like this might take some doing.  the question is :  Where does the problem really lie....and who is doing the lying !

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by rumak

[LukKrueng]

39 minutes ago, rumak said:

The land has been purchased already, so this wouldn't help now.  Definitely good advice about getting it measured.....though it is often done after the sale.  HOWEVER, if there is any doubt about boundaries

or authenticity that should be addressed BELORE buying .  

The situation with the OP is a bit "confusing", to say the least.  A chanote IS the best land ownership document and the Land Office is the dept. that issues them.  SO....if they changed ownership into your wife's name there should be no way it is not the real deal (or they would have told you).  BUT,  getting to

the bottom of a problem like this might take some doing.  the question is :  Where does the problem really lie....and who is doing the lying !

 

yes, you're right. It is best if done before buying. However, one way to falsify chanot is simply attaching a real chanot to the wrong plot. If he wants to know if he actuality own the plot he bought he can get it surveyed. If the surveyers come to the correct place and show him the boundaries, the army can have no claim on it

[guest879]

it is still worth getting a lawyer to do a title search. its only a few thousand baht and will give you an idea where you stand. pattaya solicitors are very good. they are just beside tuk com. I used them on several property transactions in pattaya.

Edited August 22, 2018 by guest879

[rumak]

3 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

yes, you're right. It is best if done before buying. However, one way to falsify chanot is simply attaching a real chanot to the wrong plot. If he wants to know if he actuality own the plot he bought he can get it surveyed. If the surveyers come to the correct place and show him the boundaries, the army can have no claim on it

Some older properties(usually farmland) have chanotes that are legit but done many years ago and don't have a number on the chanote marker (lock chanote).  I bought 7 rai that was like that.  After I bought i had it surveyed and they put new chanotes on with numbers.  I don't know if the OP's land has the lock chanotes visible, but he definitely should have checked them against the Chanote title.  If there were numbers that matched, should be right unless someone put fake markers down. who knows, i guess anything is possible.  I ( er, i mean my daughter) have bought a number of different type properties and what i have learnt is :  take time to check it out.  and for me pick properties that i think would not have an issue ( like near forests, national parks, out in the boondocks, etc).   Disclaimer:  i did not heed this advice on one occasion (did not check law about a house being near a neighbors land)....and sure enough, problems. ........   Your point about a survey is spot on.  Be sure they are not taking money from the seller ?

[rumak]

On 8/21/2018 at 12:59 AM, andressed said:

I bought house and land in Rayong together with my Thai spouse and registrated a superficie so I'm owner of house. Registrated land deed in land office is chanote and as far I know it is not possible to achieve a more safe ownership. Recently we received a letter from a local army office where we was told to leave everything within 15 days because it was army land since 100 years ago. We will of course not accept this and first contact land office and also try find an experienced lawyer if necessary. If anybody have had similar experience and can give some advice i would be thankful to know. 

Just a few quick thoughts:   do not invest any money on the property ( house, well, expensive fence,etc) until this is sorted out.     If you do not speak good enough thai to understand what people ( land office for one) are saying...i hope your spouse is capable to carry on.  Many have no experience in these dealings

and will nod their head to everything someone tells them.

Unfortunately,  you are at a disadvantage here........ and a dishonest or unknowledgable lawyer will also

try to take advantage.  Proceed carefully......good luck.

oh, and try to stay calm.   that might be the hardest thing of all.  But once you piss the land office off your chances of success go way down.

Edited August 22, 2018 by rumak

[rumak]

1 hour ago, weegee said:

Dont waste money on Lawyers....We have just been through the same situation as you, and as the lands Dept Head said, if you take it to Court you will lose, as the courts always follow what the Lands Dept states....

YOU CANNOT WIN !!!...accept it and build a cheap fence, in case they move the boundaries again at a later date...which is more than likely. We have documents dating back years and years but they took what they wanted....A chanote is now not worth the paper it's written on....

How about the paper that says : "Till death do us part " ??

[stud858]

Have you checked with the land office original of chanote.

If you were at the land office when everything was done, I can't see you having a problem.

If not, then anything is possible. Go and confirm your chanote authenticity with land office. Good luck.

[andressed]

Have checked with land office, all is ok. It seems to be a conflict between army and land office and land office is under pressure cancel, as far I know, a large number of legal chanotes. Thanks for all comments and advices so far 

[GreasyFingers]

58 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Have you checked with the land office original of chanote.

If you were at the land office when everything was done, I can't see you having a problem.

If not, then anything is possible. Go and confirm your chanote authenticity with land office. Good luck.

On one of the lots I referred to above I went to the Land Office with the owner and checked their copy. Everything was the same and nothing said by the Land Office. When we went to the Municipal Office as a final check they told us that there was a big problem with the title. My conclusion is do not go to the LO with the owner and learn to ask the right questions.

[GreasyFingers]

1 hour ago, rumak said:

 If you do not speak good enough thai to understand what people ( land office for one) are saying...i hope your spouse is capable to carry on.  Many have no experience in these dealings

and will nod their head to everything someone tells them.

You are right about the spouses if they have had no dealings in property before. I cannot speak Thai so had to rely on the wife to ask and translate about something she knew nothing about. Fortunately I have 40 years experience back home so had learnt most of the problems (and there were scams and dishonest people there too). The wife is now up to speed on most property matters, just needed to experience the problems.

[stud858]

19 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

On one of the lots I referred to above I went to the Land Office with the owner and checked their copy. Everything was the same and nothing said by the Land Office. When we went to the Municipal Office as a final check they told us that there was a big problem with the title. My conclusion is do not go to the LO with the owner and learn to ask the right questions.

What was the big problem?

I would have thought the jurisdiction of Rights to ownership start and end with the titles office.

And if the land office gave you illegal rights then they would be liable.

Is the municipal office officially able to provide land titles?

I know anything goes, but let's assume we are dealing with how things are supposed to happen.

After all, it was government land to start with. The government sells it legally through the land office, then they change their mind and want it back. I don't think that can happen in a normal governed society without compensation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreasyFingers]

4 minutes ago, stud858 said:

What was the big problem?

I would have thought the jurisdiction of Rights to ownership start and end with the titles office.

And if the land office gave you illegal rights then they would be liable.

Is the municipal office officially able to provide land titles?

I know anything goes, but let's assume we are dealing with how things are supposed to happen.

After all, it was government land to start with. The government sells it legally through the land office, then they change their mind and want it back. I don't think that can happen in a normal governed society without compensation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The government never sold the land originally. It was set aside for specific uses that did not involve a chanote or the right to build on it.

The titles were issued illegally, that is, they were bought by bribing someone at the Land Office. There is no State guarantee of title here like there is in Oz.

[stud858]

9 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

The government never sold the land originally. It was set aside for specific uses that did not involve a chanote or the right to build on it.

The titles were issued illegally, that is, they were bought by bribing someone at the Land Office. There is no State guarantee of title here like there is in Oz.

Sure, anything goes here, and reasoning by the authorities will be swayed to their argument advantage .

 

But my reasoning is, the corrupt person was employed by the Land office and not the purchaser of the land.

The Land office is still responsible for allowing a corrupt person to be employed by them.  

Otherwise can you imagine the  "get out of trouble" clause used by all companies. They would say , oh it wasn't our fault, a bad employee did it, so we are not taking any responsibility.

 

That;s a great thing about OZ. It's mostly fairly easy to get help when you are hard done by. Compared to other countries anyway.

 

 

 

[weegee]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

How about the paper that says : "Till death do us part " ??

probably about the same value as a Chanote....?

[GreasyFingers]

1 hour ago, stud858 said:

That;s a great thing about OZ. It's mostly fairly easy to get help when you are hard done by. Compared to other countries anyway.

Not unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money going through the civil courts, and good luck with that.

[rumak]

53 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Not unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money going through the civil courts, and good luck with that.

here you lose your money to the scammers.    in civilized countries you go to court.....and lose your money to the lawyers.   

[stud858]

56 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Not unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money going through the civil courts, and good luck with that.

I've heard several success stories. One including my father that went quite smoothly  in oz and cost him zip.

 

As compared to here. I've only been close to one successful case involving a falang.

 

I do love the good defeating evil stories. But I guess each of us weigh up the benefits for the hassle.

[rumak]

42 minutes ago, stud858 said:

I've heard several success stories. One including my father that went quite smoothly  in oz and cost him zip.

 

As compared to here. I've only been close to one successful case involving a falang.

 

I do love the good defeating evil stories. But I guess each of us weigh up the benefits for the hassle.

remind me again.....how much does a bottle of water cost in Aus.  ?

[Tofer]

Your Chanote documents have a plan with the post reference nos. recorded therein. Find your posts on your land and check the reference numbers against the plan, then ask to see the district / master plan at the land office which should show the same reference numbers as your Chanote plan.

[stud858]

43 minutes ago, rumak said:

remind me again.....how much does a bottle of water cost in Aus.  ?

Free, if I fill a bottle at the local park.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re the OP's particular situation, perhaps this is one of the kinds of things that tend to happen when it's the Army that is in charge of running the country, the government and pretty much everything else in town.

 

[andressed]

My wife have tried to make a Facebook group for other in same situation but only 5 have so far showed interest. Many she talk say they are scared what can happen if fight back and just wait see what happen or have already give up. We have informed army office we have the legal right to keep our property. Now we just wait and see what happen and if army want a court decision we take that fight in court. So far land office is on our side but both the political and economic structure in Thailand opens for that power decide what is right and not the law. 

[MyFriend You]

If anybody have had similar experience and can give some advice i would be thankful to know. 

 

Back in The Day, all us bar owners in Pattaya what is now know as Walking Street would get a letter every month from the Thai Navy outlying how they one all the beach side land and we had 30 days to vacate  Big John of Johns Diner has eleven years worth of these letters.......all to do about nothing..............Thai Navy never came down and tore down any of the bldgs, they did confiscate a couple of Som Tam seller places to build the Water Pump area  (haha)