chrissables Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Grouse said: They can be Denmark with kilts and whisky. Why not? Do you not think Denmark is independent? Is this the Denmark you moved to to improve your life, or at least were planning to do so? 55555 The Denmark that was forced to vote again on the Maastricht Treaty by the EU? Do you think that is independency? Last i heard they had illegally set up land borders to control illegal immigrants. If they were independent, they could do so without the threat of the EU punishing them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissables Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Grouse said: I think you do misunderstand independence. What do you want N Korea? No, it's the amount of sovereignty you are prepared to share with other like minded states. I seem to understand it more than you. To simplify, self governing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 55 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: overseas assets how about overseas territories? Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, Ascension, ....... there are several more some of these enjoy special privileges re single market, Falkland and some of the stone heaps in the Channel UK maybe leaves EU, Scotland maybe leaves UK and enters EU what then with territories? here is the list of current UK stone heaps around the world, the last bits of the empire; Britain's Overseas Territories Anguilla Bermuda British Antarctic Territory British Indian Ocean Territory British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Gibraltar Montserrat Pitcairn Islands St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands Turks and Caicos Islands of these, the Cliff is a tricky one re Brexit, Spain is already making considerable noise in EU (I assume that Indian Ocean is limited to Diego Garcia and near by heaps) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 59 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: overseas assets how about overseas territories? Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, Ascension, ....... there are several more some of these enjoy special privileges re single market, Falkland and some of the stone heaps in the Channel UK maybe leaves EU, Scotland maybe leaves UK and enters EU what then with territories? I am not sure if I am following your thought process here - are you suggesting that these are UK assets ripe for disbursement? I don't know how a Scottish government would view them, but my thinking is that it would be a bit rich of Scotland to demand its own independence and also demand a slice of these colonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: I am not sure if I am following your thought process here - are you suggesting that these are UK assets ripe for disbursement? I don't know how a Scottish government would view them, but my thinking is that it would be a bit rich of Scotland to demand its own independence and also demand a slice of these colonies. these are UK assets, the UK breaking up, where do the assets go? a bit rich? yes can agree with that but look at Falklands, enjoys backdoor access to sm UK out of EU Scotland out of UK and into EU Falklands and Scotland have heaps of sheep in common without this backdoor access to sm Falkland would struggle big time, mega big time I would say that these territories represent a not small problem re Brexit The future well being of these territories is a shared responsibility for what is UK today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: here is the list of current UK stone heaps around the world, the last bits of the empire; Britain's Overseas Territories Anguilla Bermuda British Antarctic Territory British Indian Ocean Territory British Virgin Islands Cayman Islands Falkland Islands Gibraltar Montserrat Pitcairn Islands St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands Turks and Caicos Islands of these, the Cliff is a tricky one re Brexit, Spain is already making considerable noise in EU (I assume that Indian Ocean is limited to Diego Garcia and near by heaps) Now you have gotten me thinking... I presume that some of these territories are self sustaining - but what of those that require financial and logistical support from the UK? Maybe a St Kilda style evacuation for those who cannot sustain themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Now you have gotten me thinking... I presume that some of these territories are self sustaining - but what of those that require financial and logistical support from the UK? Maybe a St Kilda style evacuation for those who cannot sustain themselves? right, and what about those who bank on backdoor access to the SingleMarket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, chrissables said: Is this the Denmark you moved to to improve your life, or at least were planning to do so? 55555 The Denmark that was forced to vote again on the Maastricht Treaty by the EU? Do you think that is independency? Last i heard they had illegally set up land borders to control illegal immigrants. If they were independent, they could do so without the threat of the EU punishing them. Largely but not entirely correct I spent several year in Denmark and I was back there recently While there I went to the local Kommune and arranged for a Danish passport. I really like the place and I will retire there if anywhere. I have a small pension there also. The Danes have an effective way of dealing with unwanted arrivals: you must demonstrate converersation Danish if you wish to remain after 3 months! The Danes arranged several opt outs: they use the Krone. I will read up on who forced whom to do what and when Ta' ska' du ha' Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Grouse said: Largely but not entirely correct I spent several year in Denmark and I was back there recently While there I went to the local Kommune and arranged for a Danish passport. I really like the place and I will retire there if anywhere. I also have a small pension there. The Danes have an effective way of dealing with unwanted arrivals: you must demonstrate converersational Danish if you wish to remain after 3 months! The Danes arranged several opt outs: they use the Krone. I will read up on who forced whom to do what and when Ta' ska' du ha' https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993 Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs How very democratic! Whats wrong with that? Do you understand hyggelig? Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: right, and what about those who bank on backdoor access to the SingleMarket? As in the EU or the UK single markets? Access to the former is most likely to be lost anyway; if Indy happens then their UK single market will reduce by around 9%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 50 minutes ago, Grouse said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993 Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs How very democratic! Whats wrong with that? Do you understand hyggelig? that very last word Grouse is the essence of Danish laidback ness Danes knows everything re this, way more than other Scandinavian countries 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 55 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: As in the EU or the UK single markets? Access to the former is most likely to be lost anyway; if Indy happens then their UK single market will reduce by around 9%. I did mean EU single market. yes - continuing life as an English colony - access = lost continuing life as a heap of Scottish stones in the south Atlantic, access could still be enjoyed after S leaves UK and enters EU never mind, I clearly understand that the future well being of the territories is not high on the agenda in these brexit scexit times but, there is material for thought here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Dude Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 More project fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: I did mean EU single market. yes - continuing life as an English colony - access = lost continuing life as a heap of Scottish stones in the south Atlantic, access could still be enjoyed after S leaves UK and enters EU never mind, I clearly understand that the future well being of the territories is not high on the agenda in these brexit scexit times but, there is material for thought here Ah, I am with you now. A few months back there was a brief mention of a Celtic Union on Twitter - a loose alliance of Scotland, a united Ireland, Wales and the Independent Republic of Cornwall. Maybe we could open it to all former crown territories... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said: Ah, I am with you now. A few months back there was a brief mention of a Celtic Union on Twitter - a loose alliance of Scotland, a united Ireland, Wales and the Independent Republic of Cornwall. Maybe we could open it to all former crown territories... whatever RR (do you live in Ruam Rudii?-excellent soi) but dont forget them, there are soles out there banking on access to SM through UK and also soles banking on support from the motherland there are also soles that would do fine whatever, Cayman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: whatever RR (do you live in Ruam Rudii?-excellent soi) but dont forget them, there are soles out there banking on access to SM through UK and also soles banking on support from the motherland there are also soles that would do fine whatever, Cayman? I used to live in All Seasons Mansion, next to the Conrad Hotel - I agree, a very nice part of town. I understand what you are getting at - what the answer is, however, I don't know. If we look to the Chagos islanders, for example, it is clear that the UK doesn't place the interests of their colonies particularly highly, so I can understand if they feel anxious about the future. I maybe sounded a bit flippant in my previous retort but possibly there is scope for an alliance of former UK outposts, a sort of commonwealth, but without the Westminster death grip. It has been suggested by some that Scotland would, if it reapplied to join the EU, be fast tracked back in. Maybe the EU could promise a similar arrangement for colonies of the UK, should they choose to extricate themselves - not necessarily full membership, but access to the types of support services that were previously supplied by the UK? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, RuamRudy said: I used to live in All Seasons Mansion, next to the Conrad Hotel - I agree, a very nice part of town. I understand what you are getting at - what the answer is, however, I don't know. If we look to the Chagos islanders, for example, it is clear that the UK doesn't place the interests of their colonies particularly highly, so I can understand if they feel anxious about the future. I maybe sounded a bit flippant in my previous retort but possibly there is scope for an alliance of former UK outposts, a sort of commonwealth, but without the Westminster death grip. It has been suggested by some that Scotland would, if it reapplied to join the EU, be fast tracked back in. Maybe the EU could promise a similar arrangement for colonies of the UK, should they choose to extricate themselves - not necessarily full membership, but access to the types of support services that were previously supplied by the UK? good, guess my main point was that these territories and people should not be forgotten they are somehow part of the UK clout on the global stage and should be treated properly if Scotland pops out of UK I would be fairly confident of a quick fix for joining EU solution ? dunno; but there are many territories with special links to EU one way or the other (including no links) greenland - denmark faero islands - denmark aaland in the mid baltic - finland some of the islands in the channel holy sea - san marino - andorra - monaco canary islands - spain the 2 spanish enclaves under Riff in north Africa the cliff uk overseas territories french overseas territories netherlands and the mexican gulf denmark ? have anything left in the gulf? and aren't there a couple of german islands off the north west coast of germany enjoying special tax privileges? and I am sure I have forgotten some lots of special deals floating around Edited September 4, 2018 by melvinmelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Grouse said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993 Yes, I remember now. First time they voted no by a whisker They voted massively yes in 1993 after winning a number of opt outs How very democratic! Whats wrong with that? Do you understand hyggelig? now, as to hyggelig here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD latest polls, SD about 20 % social democrats about 23 % seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: now, as to hyggelig here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD latest polls, SD about 20 % social democrats about 23 % seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly There will be moree Moderate Democrats are in the National Assembly. There doesn't seem to be much of chance of forming part of a government though. Here is the latest polling results, I think: Social Democrats (S) 24.7% Sweden Democrats (SD) 19.5% Moderate Party (M) 18% Left Party (V) 9.5% Centre Party (C) 8.9% Liberal Party (L) 5.7% Green Party (MP) 5.7% Christian Democrats (KD) 5% https://betting.betfair.com/politics/general-politics-betting/2018-swedish-election-betting-analysis-and-tips-030918-171.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 different source different numbers msm? funny stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 fascists sailing up as no 2, nee good anyway, your list is polls on the street I guess when you map this into or onto the constituencies, how would it look re seats in the national assembly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: different source different numbers msm? funny stuff Very close actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 28 minutes ago, bristolboy said: There will be moree Moderate Democrats are in the National Assembly. There doesn't seem to be much of chance of forming part of a government though. Here is the latest polling results, I think: Social Democrats (S) 24.7% Sweden Democrats (SD) 19.5% Moderate Party (M) 18% Left Party (V) 9.5% Centre Party (C) 8.9% Liberal Party (L) 5.7% Green Party (MP) 5.7% Christian Democrats (KD) 5% https://betting.betfair.com/politics/general-politics-betting/2018-swedish-election-betting-analysis-and-tips-030918-171.html ha, could be a moderate social coalition - un precedented, but the guys are not that far apart in reality but kinda far fetched me thinks the social are very experienced politicians, they could probably run a cabinet in that environment anyway - difficult picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolboy Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: ha, could be a moderate social coalition - un precedented, but the guys are not that far apart in reality but kinda far fetched me thinks the social are very experienced politicians, they could probably run a cabinet in that environment anyway - difficult picture And of course, as is sometimes the case, some potential voters for the Swedish Democrats could be lying about their vote for fear of disapproval. On the other hand, it could be like the Dutch elections where the anti-immigrant party failed to live up to its billings. A volatile situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, melvinmelvin said: now, as to hyggelig here is some news not hyggelig for you, on several occasions you have expressed worries re Sweden an SD latest polls, SD about 20 % social democrats about 23 % seems like fascists will be flowing into the national assembly Tak f'det! Actually, I thing Sweden has little choice but to bring in the right wing to clean up the mess caused by excessive Muslim immigration. It really is an awful blot on their fine cities. You are clearly aware of their historical Nazi roots. I trust that most of that has been consigned to history Ten years from now, I hope Sweden has recovered from the trauma and is back to its calm (and beautiful) social democrat facade. Edited September 5, 2018 by Grouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Were going to get told off for being off topic! New thread please sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 Yesterday the Scottish Government set out their program for the next session, including an Electoral Franchise Bill, intended to ensure that EU citizens retain the right to vote in future Scottish Parliament and local elections. Good work from the SNP there, furthering the notion of an inclusive Scotland. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuamRudy Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 A rather damning commentary in the Times yesterday: Davidson is not cut out to lead the country "The Scottish Tories are still behaving like a third party, not serious contenders for government" How much of this is driven by the ongoing proxy war in CCHQ I have no idea - but Ruth the Mooth's star seems well and truly on the wane across the UK, not only in Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbothaivisa Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 On 9/3/2018 at 4:17 PM, RuamRudy said: In 2014 the UK in the EU was little more than a internal schism in the tory party; nobody had promised a referendum on membership and certainly, nobody anticipated Brexit, so your explanation is not only far from the obvious one, it is wrong. what's a Scottish border got to do with Brexit? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbothaivisa Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 2:17 PM, Grouse said: Just like Ireland you mean? correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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