Brexit could sway Scottish voters towards independence from UK - poll

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Yes, my friend - unfortunately there are those in England who see the other home nations as their possessions with which England can do as it sees fit.

 

Just to be clear, Scotland and the Scots will decide our future. You will be a spectator who will play no part in whatever outcome we arrive at, but you will have to live with whatever it is we choose to do. A bit like Brexit in that respect. 

Most of us in England would prefer you to be sucking off the EU's tits.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Most of us in England would prefer you to be sucking off the EU's tits.

That is utter nonsense, unless you have proof of course.

[Grouse]

On 9/3/2018 at 10:39 AM, bristolboy said:

Well, you could get a lot of high earners and the highly educated, the people who overwhelmingly voted to remain, who would emigrate to Scotland. It's conveniently situated.

Ha! I recently bought a place in Edinburgh for this eventuality ! ?

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Most of us in England would prefer you to be sucking off the EU's tits.

You might like to think that, I am sure, but this suggests that unless you live in the City of London or the SE of England, you are a burden on the Scots as much as you are on those 2 regions of England. 

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You might like to think that, I am sure, but this suggests that unless you live in the City of London or the SE of England, you are a burden on the Scots as much as you are on those 2 regions of England. 

 

So many seem to know as little about Scotland as they do the EU!

 

Yarmouth is nice this time of year I hear ?

[Grouse]

22 hours ago, AsiaHand said:

They have only 1/9 the GDP of England.

And?

 

They have 1/3 of the UK area

Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So many seem to know as little about Scotland as they do the EU!

 

Yarmouth is nice this time of year I hear ?

Lady in the Lake in Lowestoft - a great spot to enjoy a few drinks by the broads!

 

I only visited Yarmouth once and couldn't get out fast enough. Admittedly this was 25 years ago, but considering that, at the time, this area was the key hub for the UK's gas production, it was shamefully neglected by the Tories.

[transam]

41 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Yes, my friend - unfortunately there are those in England who see the other home nations as their possessions with which England can do as it sees fit.

 

Just to be clear, Scotland and the Scots will decide our future. You will be a spectator who will play no part in whatever outcome we arrive at, but you will have to live with whatever it is we choose to do. A bit like Brexit in that respect. 

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer, total crap...Born Scots living and working in England cannot vote...But hey, Africans in Scotland can....

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, puipuitom said:

I believe some of Brexit is not clear: 29 March 2019, 11:00 Greenwich time, the U.K. is OUT of the EU. Result of the referendum in 2016.

The discussion now is ONLY and ONLY about: which conditions towards the EU are still possible for an non-EU state like the U.K. 

 

That in the U.K. there are still people, who wants to have a second referendum about if they LIKE the "divorse" agreement… so be it. Has nothing to do with the EU membership, as that ends.. 29 March next year, at 12:00 MET.

Maybe the U.K. can file a new application to be member (again) of the E.U. = but that's another question.  ( accept no preferences, agree €uro and Schengen + driving on the right lane for instance ? ) 

You make a good case for remaining 

 

So be it!

 

Thanks! ☃️

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer, total crap...Born Scots living and working in England cannot vote...But hey, Africans in Scotland can....

You make an important point - the franchise for voting in the referendum is restricted to those resident and contributing to the development of the country. If said person of African origin is now residing in Scotland and contributing to its growth, he or she can consider themselves to be Scots. Controversial, I know, but those opposed to such thinking are, in the main (although not universally) unionists. 

[Grouse]

22 hours ago, timbothaivisa said:

because small islands do not share well and a new land border would suddenly appear when we've only had wet (easily managed) ones for centuries. there are probably many reasons, but this one is pretty obvious

Just like Ireland you mean?

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, vogie said:

This is not about the Scots, this is about the SNP, most Scots I believe want to remain with the Union.

I can state very clearly that the Scots I met recently were all very pro EU. And that is the point here. I think the auld alliance (and plenty of new ones) will outweigh love of the English. The Scots have long memories oh aye!

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I can state very clearly that the Scots I met recently were all very pro EU. And that is the point here. I think the auld alliance (and plenty of new ones) will outweigh love of the English. The Scots have long memories oh aye!

So your chums were blah blah blah, how convenient....?

[transam]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You make an important point - the franchise for voting in the referendum is restricted to those resident and contributing to the development of the country. If said person of African origin is now residing in Scotland and contributing to its growth, he or she can consider themselves to be Scots. Controversial, I know, but those opposed to such thinking are, in the main (although not universally) unionists. 

I live in LOS, but I can vote in the UK....?

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

This suggests differently, as do the results of the last two polls. Add to that the fact that there are more SNP MPs than all the rest combined, and the SNP has a near majority in Holyrood, which is contrived to specifically avoid one party dominating.

 

Looking at the numbers in the chart above, it is fair to assume a not insignificant number of No voters have since died in the intervening years; the demographics show a significant switch in allegiance after about the age of 50. During the same period, Scottish young people under 25 are polling around 70% for independence. A whole load of new Yes voters have come of age, while the No voters are expiring.

 

For those born outside the UK, while many may have already fled the country, it would be hard to imaqgine any reason for those who remain to vote No.

 

So, from an objective persepctive, I cannot see how the No campaign will be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat next time. Other than the continuing suggestions that we are too wee, too poor, too incapable of managing our own affairs, what can the UK government offer in the way of positive reasons for the continuation of the union?

 

 

At the risk of pouring water on the idea, I believe a vote to breakaway from the U.K. Would have to have a super majority.

 

I do believe that is possible in the face of this Brexit farce. IMO, Scotland is closer to Scandinavia than England.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Grouse

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Snow Leopard said:

Not this nonsense again. Can we all just face up to reality and get on with it. 

Yes ... you voted for suicide ... so you just have to get on with it ... in the interests of democracy ... defined by Brexiteers as one vote that you can never change ... ever ... the will of the people ... the dumbest 37% of the voting electorate ... like lemmings off a cliff.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, Grouse said:

At the risk of pouring water on the idea, I believe a vote to breakaway from the U.K. Would have to have a super majority.

 

I do believe that is possible in the face of this Brexit farce. IMO, Scotland closer to Scandinavia than England.

Had we not had a precedent set, I would agree with you, but one of the many blunders of the Cameron years was the simple majority he allowed for the Scottish referendum and for Brexit. To change the threshold now would never be accepted. 

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, chrissables said:

As already stated, Scotland wants independence from whom? If they remain in the UK or the EU, they are not independent.

 

Are they in a position to actually be a REAL independent country? 

They can be Denmark with kilts and whisky. Why not? Do you not think Denmark is independent?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Had we not had a precedent set, I would agree with you, but one of the many blunders of the Cameron years was the simple majority he allowed for the Scottish referendum and for Brexit. To change the threshold now would never be accepted. 

Don't worry. You will get the super majority. Easily

[Megasin1]

This is an interesting article indeed as it brings up so many questions, for example you can't presume that Scotland divorcing itself means it could automatically remain in Europe, this is not the case, unfortunately Scotland in it's own right is not a member of the EU and would therefore have to apply. As it would be applying as a small country the EU would get some very beneficial rights for themselves as part of the deal. Then you have to consider all the Scots that work in England, very interesting how they will approach that little one and then all of the Scottish regiments and members of the military, the military bases that are in Scotland etc. etc. The current tax burden that allows a lot of free things that Scotland currently enjoys could also cause massive tax rises in Scotland. I am not sure what supporters of Scotland becoming independent actually think will be the benefits other than "freedom" from some perceived oppression. The only true oppressors of freedom are the EU, we joined a common market which then developed into a federal state which as far as I can remember we never voted for.

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, chrissables said:

Clearer? If Scotland decide to go independent in the real meaning of the word, they will be just that independent. Not part of the UK or the EU.
I am sure there are reasons from both sides within Scotland for staying or leaving the UK, but if they do and become a member of the EU they are not independent.
Or i am misunderstand the meaning of independence?

I think you do misunderstand independence. What do you want N Korea? No, it's the amount of sovereignty you are prepared to share with other like minded states.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, smedly said:

put that to a poll in Greece

 

what you fail to realise is that the EU is a massive failure, I liked the idea of a common market which is where it started but it has morphed into a power grabbing undemocratic debacle, some of Scotland might hate the English but be careful who you want to jump into bed with.

 

Here is a good question for you - in terms of trade, who does Scotland trade with the most, I know the answer but you go for it.

 

and during the referendum you were told by Salmond and his ilk that Scotland would be fine with revenues from North seas oil - shortly after the vote the oil price went through the floor, also if Scotland decided to leave the UK they would still have to pay a share of total UK debt which you would be paying for decades

 

Yeah the grass is always greener.……….. right ?

 

The rest of us in the UK are fed up to the back teeth listening to this same rhetoric from the hapless minority in Scotland, you are being led down the garden path by sinister people with a seriously suspect agenda, time to smell the SNP cheese who are doing nothing for Scotland  

 

get over it, you just don't know when you're well off  

 

and BTW - I am not English 

You could have just as easily applied all your arguments to the Brexit decision:

 

- who is the UK’s biggest trading partner?

- what group of nations is currently divided and crumbling before your eyes? I’ll give you a clue ... it’s not the EU.

- led down the garden path by sinister people ... like Farage and the Russian funded Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytica, and the demented Little Englanders Rees-Mogg and Johnson.

 

The UK has prospered within the EU, it went from the slowest growth major European economy before joining to the fastest ... people just didn’t know when they were well off.

 

I do hope you’re not Welsh ... a nation of Turkeys that voted for Christmas.

 

 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, Megasin1 said:

This is an interesting article indeed as it brings up so many questions, for example you can't presume that Scotland divorcing itself means it could automatically remain in Europe, this is not the case, unfortunately Scotland in it's own right is not a member of the EU and would therefore have to apply. As it would be applying as a small country the EU would get some very beneficial rights for themselves as part of the deal. Then you have to consider all the Scots that work in England, very interesting how they will approach that little one and then all of the Scottish regiments and members of the military, the military bases that are in Scotland etc. etc. The current tax burden that allows a lot of free things that Scotland currently enjoys could also cause massive tax rises in Scotland. I am not sure what supporters of Scotland becoming independent actually think will be the benefits other than "freedom" from some perceived oppression. The only true oppressors of freedom are the EU, we joined a common market which then developed into a federal state which as far as I can remember we never voted for.

My personal preference is for the UK to stay united ... within the EU. In this world it makes sense to be a member of something bigger. With trading freedoms and 60 additional trade agreements with other major countries it made economic sense as well. The UK voted to be poorer, but most didn’t realise that ... a hard Brexit will make that reality. What’s different? There are many companies around the world that seek a European base ... as most learn English the UK get the lion’s share of that investment, but that is now slowing and will be insignificant post-Brexit. An independent Scotland within Europe could be a major beneficiary of that. It’s unlikely that Scots would exclude English folk from settling so it might well attract skills from down South ... a reversal of the previous trend. England’s folly over Brexit tilts the scales in favour of independence. I suspect Northern Ireland will go also. 

 

What a shame, not something that I’d ever wish for ... all because a few old folk bigots don’t like Johnny Foreigner. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Megasin1 said:

This is an interesting article indeed as it brings up so many questions, for example you can't presume that Scotland divorcing itself means it could automatically remain in Europe, this is not the case, unfortunately Scotland in it's own right is not a member of the EU and would therefore have to apply. As it would be applying as a small country the EU would get some very beneficial rights for themselves as part of the deal. Then you have to consider all the Scots that work in England, very interesting how they will approach that little one and then all of the Scottish regiments and members of the military, the military bases that are in Scotland etc. etc. The current tax burden that allows a lot of free things that Scotland currently enjoys could also cause massive tax rises in Scotland. I am not sure what supporters of Scotland becoming independent actually think will be the benefits other than "freedom" from some perceived oppression. The only true oppressors of freedom are the EU, we joined a common market which then developed into a federal state which as far as I can remember we never voted for.

I am sure that, like Brexit, disengagement will not be straightforward or without issue, but hopefully we will make a better fist of it than the Brexit negotiators are making. 

 

People on either side of the border - I don't see why that would be an issue, or certainly no more of an issue than currently with Brexit. 

 

What about Scottish military bases? Are you suggesting that they will be packed up and removed south of the border? They belong to the UK, not to England. There will be no UK upon the scrapping of the Treaty of Union so the assets of the UK will be disbursed amongst the parties - and that includes military assets, overseas assets such as embassies etc. One thing we don't want, however, is Trident. That will hopefully be returned to the owner.  

 

Scotland does not enjoy anything for free. We need to pay for things just like everyone else. It just so happens that the Scottish government elects to spend their grant in ways that benefit society more than the English or Welsh governments do. 

 

The benefits are clear - imagine your wages being paid directly into your neighbour's bank account. You have no idea how much he actually receives for your efforts, but he decides how much he is going to return to you for your general living. He also makes much of the decisions about how your house should look, how it is constructed, who can visit etc etc. That is how Scotland is now. 

 

Another union that was never offered popular plebiscite but forced upon a very unwilling and unhappy public - the UK. 

[Snow Leopard]

21 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Yes ... you voted for suicide ... so you just have to get on with it ... in the interests of democracy ... defined by Brexiteers as one vote that you can never change ... ever ... the will of the people ... the dumbest 37% of the voting electorate ... like lemmings off a cliff.

You don't know how I voted...

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, Snow Leopard said:

You don't know how I voted...

How you voted was irrelevant ... the comment relates to the “just get on with it” cry ... whatever the cost.

[Snow Leopard]

Just now, AlexRich said:

How you voted was irrelevant ... the comment relates to the “just get on with it” cry ... whatever the cost.

Yes because it's destroying the country internally. No one knows the cost or the upside. I feel there are advantages and disadvantages. But it's better to all pull together in one direction. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

pt - separatism is in

 

scotland - uk

uk - eu

barcelona and surroundings - spain

slovak - czech (a while ago though)

belgium - many want split

 

pretty sure there are others

One reason some of these areas wish to separate their country entities is that there is EU, which allows them to be independent yet still part of the larger common union. 

 

Everybody knows smaller and larger countries benefit of their unions co-operation, which gives them more possibilities than being an independent countries. 

 

But if these smaller entities can get the union benefits directly from EU, without a need to be suppressed by their larger countries, then there is a good reason to separate. This applies to Scotland as well, which would get more independency by leaving UK and being part of EU.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

There will be no UK upon the scrapping of the Treaty of Union so the assets of the UK will be disbursed amongst the parties - and that includes military assets, overseas assets such as embassies etc. One thing we don't want, however, is Trident. That will hopefully be returned to the owner. 

 

 

overseas assets

 

how about overseas territories?

Falklands, Diego Garcia, Gibraltar, Ascension, ....... there are several more

 

some of these enjoy special privileges re single market, Falkland and some of the stone heaps in the Channel

 

UK maybe leaves EU, Scotland maybe leaves UK and enters EU

 

what then with territories?

 

[AlexRich]

51 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Yes because it's destroying the country internally. No one knows the cost or the upside. I feel there are advantages and disadvantages. But it's better to all pull together in one direction. 

 

The UK is more divided today than it was on the days leading up to the Referendum vote. The decision is too important and has serious long-term implications for anyone with a long-term stake in the UK. Most people can accept an election result, because 4 or 5 years later they can reverse it ... that just doesn't work here ... and that's why you will not get people behind it pulling in the same direction. What we are seeing is the opposite.