U.S. VP Pence pressures Paraguay over Jerusalem embassy move

[webfact]

U.S. VP Pence pressures Paraguay over Jerusalem embassy move

 

FILE PHOTO: U.S. Vice President Mike Pence speaks at the National World War II museum in New Orleans, Louisiana, U.S. August 23, 2018. REUTERS/Jonathan Bachman

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Vice President Mike Pence urged Paraguay's new president to stick to his predecessor's decision to move its embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, Pence's office said on Thursday after Asuncion announced plans to shift the diplomatic mission back to Tel Aviv.

 

Paraguay on Wednesday dealt a blow to Israeli's quest for recognition of Jerusalem as its capital, which appeared to have gained some traction this year when the United States, followed by Guatemala and Paraguay, relocated embassies there.

 

Most countries do not recognise Israeli sovereignty over the entire city.

 

Pence, who played a main role in President Donald Trump's decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, spoke on Wednesday to Paraguayan President Mario Abdo, who was elected on Aug. 15.

 

Pence "strongly encouraged" Abdo to follow through with Paraguay's commitment to move the embassy to Jerusalem "as a sign of the historic relationship the country has maintained with both Israel and the United States," Pence's office said in a statement.

 

Former Paraguay President Horacio Cartes opened the new embassy in Jerusalem on May 21, just days after the United States and Guatemala did.

 

Hours after Paraguay announced its change on Wednesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded by ordering the closure of Israel's embassy in Paraguay.

 

The statement from Pence's office did not say how Abdo responded to the vice president's request.

 

It said only that Abdo "underscored Paraguay's lasting partnership with Israel and the leaders agreed to work towards achieving a comprehensive and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

 

Abdo on Wednesday defended his decision as part of an effort to support "broad, lasting and just peace" among Israelis and Palestinians.

 

Trump reversed decades of U.S. Middle East policy. The status of Jerusalem - home to sites holy to the Jewish, Muslim and Christian religions - is one of the thorniest obstacles to forging a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians.

 

Israel claims as its capital all of the city, including the eastern sector that it annexed after the 1967 war in a move not recognised internationally.

 

But the Palestinians want East Jerusalem for the capital of a future state they hope to establish in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Negotiations between the two sides broke down in 2014.

 

(Reporting by Matt Spetalnick; editing by Grant McCool)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-09-07

[pegman]

As a response to Pense they should open their Palestinian embassy in Jerusalem. 

[dexterm]

OP..
"Israel claims as its capital all of the city, including the eastern sector that it annexed after the 1967 war in a move not recognised internationally."

 

When Trump, undermining all previous US admin foreign policy, moved the US embassy and in his own words "took Jerusalem off the negotiating table", the global community 9 months ago let him know 128-9 that the issue was most definitely still on the table. They declared the status of Jerusalem as Israel's capital as "null and void"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_resolution_ES-10/L.22

 

Trump and Pence are talking only to themselves, Israel and a handful of Pacific islands. Just another day in crazytown.

 

Paraguay is now back on the right side of history, along with the rest of the world.

Edited September 7, 2018 by dexterm

[Morch]

57 minutes ago, pegman said:

As a response to Pense they should open their Palestinian embassy in Jerusalem. 

 

About as reasonable and informed as can be expected. How would you suggest they do that, exactly?

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

Trump's statement on Jerusalem did not, in fact, support Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. The statement included a direct reference to this:

 

Quote

We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.  Those questions are up to the parties involved.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump-jerusalem/

 

Your take on on Paraguay's current move is just another instance of them double standards often displayed in your posts. The decision was made by a new government, and reversed the former government's move. When the Trump administration did something of the sort, it was (and is) considered unacceptable.

 

 

[dexterm]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

Trump's statement on Jerusalem did not, in fact, support Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. The statement included a direct reference to this:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-president-trump-jerusalem/

 

Your take on on Paraguay's current move is just another instance of them double standards often displayed in your posts. The decision was made by a new government, and reversed the former government's move. When the Trump administration did something of the sort, it was (and is) considered unacceptable.

 

 

So please explain what you think Trump meant by "We took it off the table. We don’t have to talk about it anymore." 
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-trump-netanyahu-meet-in-davos-1.5766434

[zaphod reborn]

Pence obeying the Putin puppet master.  Maximize discord in the ME.  I hope that Manafort and Butin flip and can put Pence behind bars where he belongs.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

So please explain what you think Trump meant by "We took it off the table. We don’t have to talk about it anymore." 
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-trump-netanyahu-meet-in-davos-1.5766434

 

Oh, you're doing this thing were you pretend we never had this exchange before. Goody.

 

Unlike yourself, I do not over-analyze Trump's statements, especially not the off-the-cuff stuff. Trump says a whole lot of things, and as recent revelation about his administration and presidency show making sense, being coherent or having a clue aren't hallmarks. You can't (except that you somehow do...) accept these accounts of Trump, and yet treat his statements as fully rational or implying coherent, well-laid plans.

 

To the degree that Trump grasps the apparent forming "peace plan" drive, the notion seems to be that deflating some of the core "unsolvable", "untouchable" issues would permit advancing other aspects that can be more readily dealt with. To head off the expected twist, I do not think this approach will be successful, nor is the manner in which it is applied a great one, to put it mildly.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

Pence obeying the Putin puppet master.  Maximize discord in the ME.  I hope that Manafort and Butin flip and can put Pence behind bars where he belongs.

 

With all due respect to Paraguay, I doubt moving or not moving their embassy equates with "maximize discord in the ME". To the extent that Pence is invested in this, probably got more to do with his religious beliefs and supporter base.

[zaphod reborn]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

With all due respect to Paraguay, I doubt moving or not moving their embassy equates with "maximize discord in the ME". To the extent that Pence is invested in this, probably got more to do with his religious beliefs and supporter base.

I'm sorry that you seem to have limited knowledge of geopolitik.  Putin has strong support with the evangelical and Catholic populations of the world, because the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia is seen as the greatest hope for the revitalization of Christianity.  Putin is given much credit for that.  Putin specifically directed Manafort to insist that Trump select Pence rather than Chris Christie as his running mate, because Pence is a religious fanatic and would maximize cultural divisions in the US and globally as it would be likely he would succeed Trump following impeachment/resignation.

 https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/do-we-remember-that-manafort-pick-pence

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, zaphod reborn said:

I'm sorry that you seem to have limited knowledge of geopolitik.  Putin has strong support with the evangelical and Catholic populations of the world, because the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia is seen as the greatest hope for the revitalization of Christianity.  Putin is given much credit for that.  Putin specifically directed Manafort to insist that Trump select Pence rather than Chris Christie as his running mate, because Pence is a religious fanatic and would maximize cultural divisions in the US and globally as it would be likely he would succeed Trump following impeachment/resignation.

 https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/do-we-remember-that-manafort-pick-pence

 

The link provided doesn't support your whole theory, and in fact, even includes the view that picking Pence made political sense. I don't know that there is such a unity of mind among evangelical, catholic and Eastern Orthodox about anything, let alone strong adoration or adulation of Putin. 

 

Be that as it may, it is doubtful Putin is interested in maximizing discord in the ME. At least not in anything conforming to this as an unqualified statement. 

 

IMO, this is more of the usual routine right-wing stuff, rather than directly related to the issues you go on about.

[dexterm]

29 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Oh, you're doing this thing were you pretend we never had this exchange before. Goody.

 

Unlike yourself, I do not over-analyze Trump's statements, especially not the off-the-cuff stuff. Trump says a whole lot of things, and as recent revelation about his administration and presidency show making sense, being coherent or having a clue aren't hallmarks. You can't (except that you somehow do...) accept these accounts of Trump, and yet treat his statements as fully rational or implying coherent, well-laid plans.

 

To the degree that Trump grasps the apparent forming "peace plan" drive, the notion seems to be that deflating some of the core "unsolvable", "untouchable" issues would permit advancing other aspects that can be more readily dealt with. To head off the expected twist, I do not think this approach will be successful, nor is the manner in which it is applied a great one, to put it mildly.

You're obfuscating. So Trump said it, but maybe he did not really mean it or know what he was saying.

You "do not over-analyze Trump's statements, especially not the off-the-cuff stuff. Trump says a whole lot of things, and as recent revelation about his administration and presidency show making sense, being coherent or having a clue aren't hallmarks."

Netanyahu was clearly delighted by his words. His position that Jerusalem should be Israel's eternal undivided capital is well known to Trump.

 

So if this Jerusalem embassy move is all so insignificant, because Trump may not have a clue, why is Pence now pressurising Paraguay to reverse its decision, and Netanyahu is so angry that he has closed the Israeli embassy in Paraguay?

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, dexterm said:

You're obfuscating. So Trump said it, but maybe he did not really mean it or know what he was saying.

You "do not over-analyze Trump's statements, especially not the off-the-cuff stuff. Trump says a whole lot of things, and as recent revelation about his administration and presidency show making sense, being coherent or having a clue aren't hallmarks."

Netanyahu was clearly delighted by his words. His position that Jerusalem should be Israel's eternal undivided capital is well known to Trump.

 

So if this Jerusalem embassy move is all so insignificant, because Trump may not have a clue, why is Pence now pressurising Paraguay to reverse its decision, and Netanyahu is so angry that he has closed the Israeli embassy in Paraguay?

 

No, I am not "obfuscating". The incoherent, unreasonable and flip-flopping nature of Trump's statements is no secret. There are currently several parallel topics dealing with just that. You choose to ignore it, when it fits and services your agenda. That doesn't bother you clicking likes and such to posts criticizing Trump's incoherent style and irrationality on other topics.

 

Netanyahu was clearly delighted by Trump's statement, yes. What does this have to do with anything posted? Trump also said (on more than one occasion, and even while holding a press conference with Netanyahu) that Israel will have to make concessions as well. Somehow this fail to appear in your account. Same way you keep dodging any reference to the actual bit of the statement quoted above.

 

I didn't say that the Jerusalem embassy move is "all so insignificant". That's your own hyperbolic twist. My take is that it does not quite amount to what's advertised by any of the involved parties. We've been through this numerous times.

 

Pence is pressuring Paraguay because the Trump administration would like any bit of international support for its move. Countries often apply pressure (to the best of their ability) in order to secure diplomatic results. The same way the Palestinians pressured Paraguay to change the previous government's decision. I don't see you questioning or wondering that. According to your "logic" the Palestinian should have just accepted the original decision and move on. Netanyahu is angry because it made him look and because acting "tough" scores points with his base. Since its "only" Paraguay, he can get away with it.

[candide]

Internal factors seem to play an main role in most decisions by Trump. This decision was already in his campaign platform. Making it allowed him to satisfy some of his allies and fans, without directly addressing the issue of the annexion of East-Jerusalem. On this particular point, the recent pressure on Palestinians suggests he would prefer the annexion to be achieved through an agreement, rather than by supporting a unilateral move by Israel.

[AsiaHand]

6 hours ago, pegman said:

As a response to Pense they should open their Palestinian embassy in Jerusalem. 

Pegman,do you ever get past the comics or sports sections in the news paper /

[fvw53]

Mike Pence believes he is ordered by God to do so..

It reminds me of an old saying :  if you speak to God ...you pray....but if God speaks to you...then you belong in an asylum

[Tug]

Paraguay is smart to delay probably hasent collected the trump pence bribe money yet lol also why stick your neck out for a failing administration and why fan the unrest in the Middle East 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, candide said:

Internal factors seem to play an main role in most decisions by Trump. This decision was already in his campaign platform. Making it allowed him to satisfy some of his allies and fans, without directly addressing the issue of the annexion of East-Jerusalem. On this particular point, the recent pressure on Palestinians suggests he would prefer the annexion to be achieved through an agreement, rather than by supporting a unilateral move by Israel.

 

News flash - Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem decades ago. Trump's statement regarding the embassy move included a clear reference (linked on a previous post) as to this not reflecting a position on final status issues.

[dexterm]

Netanyahu's and Pence reaction is somewhat over the top because the reversal was not exactly a surprise to them. They already knew the Paraguayan embassy move was made by a lame duck president in his last month of office and that the new president had vowed to review the decision.

 

"Abdo Benitez, who won Paraguay’s election in April but had yet to take office when Cartes announced the move in one of his final acts as president, had said he would review the decision."

https://www.timesofisrael.com/paraguay-urges-israel-to-reverse-exaggerated-asuncion-embassy-closure/

 

Paraguay now taking a responsible balanced position encouraging peace based on a just two state solution, rather than Pence Trump and Netanyahu destroying any chance of a peace agreement.

[candide]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

News flash - Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem decades ago. Trump's statement regarding the embassy move included a clear reference (linked on a previous post) as to this not reflecting a position on final status issues.

I know, but not supported by the US. He could have directly recognised the annexion but did not. So we are not in contradiction on this point.

 

As to the fact that his future plan is likely to include the annexion of East Jerusalem, it's my own opinion. We'll see what comes up, if it ever comes up.

[bristolboy]

57 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

News flash - Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem decades ago. Trump's statement regarding the embassy move included a clear reference (linked on a previous post) as to this not reflecting a position on final status issues.

And of course as the saying goes "Words speak louder than actions."

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.  

 

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been reported and removed.  

 

[Saladin]

 

It has been many years since the US has worked towards achieving a comprehensive and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The US, with its unquestioning support of Netanyahu's Israel and its reprehensible stand-over man thuggish behaviour, is the main impediment to a reasonable outcome.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Saladin said:

 

It has been many years since the US has worked towards achieving a comprehensive and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The US, with its unquestioning support of Netanyahu's Israel and its reprehensible stand-over man thuggish behaviour, is the main impediment to a reasonable outcome.

 

Define "many years"? Were Kerry and Obama unquestioningly supporting Netanyahu? And, of course, the conflict predates Netanyahu by decades, but don't let facts come in the way of ranting. Guess Palestinian rejectionism and choice of violence got nothing to do with that, eh?

[Dumbastheycome]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Define "many years"? Were Kerry and Obama unquestioningly supporting Netanyahu? And, of course, the conflict predates Netanyahu by decades, but don't let facts come in the way of ranting. Guess Palestinian rejectionism and choice of violence got nothing to do with that, eh?

It  is  difficult  to  understand  the  perpetual  defense   via  argument  of  Israeli aggressive  expansionist annexation versus  defensive Palestinian actions!

In  co accord  with   apparent  US policy  enough  is never  enough ! And  with nursemaid assistance the sad  guy  becomes  the   good  guy  who is   so obviously  the  bad  guy!

 

The disruption of the Middle East is  a  combination of supremist philosophies derived  from one mutual handbook versus another.

It  is  futile  and  deadly  to  the  majority  but  hugely advantageous  to a  select  minority. In the  short  term.

It  is well overdue  for  people to  realize the smarmy door knocker who  puts a  foot  in the  closing  door should  get a  stab in the  foot !

 

[Guest]

Pence is nothing more than a male version of Sarah Palin. While Trump is a disaster as the president of United States of America, she would be a catastrophe.

 

It's rather sad to see how the well organised religious nutters can rule a so called democratic country of 320 million people simply by having only 16 million people active evangelist members. That's just 5% of the population. 

 

Becoming well organised pays off in a country without a clear way to the future. 

 

Please, reinvent love of sciences once again, like you did when you wanted to get to the Moon.

[Chomper Higgot]

“We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.  Those questions are up to the parties involved.“

 

 

As with many things around Trump and his Administration, don’t pay too much attention to the words, observe the actions and the impact of the actions.

[Morch]

18 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

It  is  difficult  to  understand  the  perpetual  defense   via  argument  of  Israeli aggressive  expansionist annexation versus  defensive Palestinian actions!

In  co accord  with   apparent  US policy  enough  is never  enough ! And  with nursemaid assistance the sad  guy  becomes  the   good  guy  who is   so obviously  the  bad  guy!

 

The disruption of the Middle East is  a  combination of supremist philosophies derived  from one mutual handbook versus another.

It  is  futile  and  deadly  to  the  majority  but  hugely advantageous  to a  select  minority. In the  short  term.

It  is well overdue  for  people to  realize the smarmy door knocker who  puts a  foot  in the  closing  door should  get a  stab in the  foot !

 

 

It is difficult to understand your posts. But to the degree that I can decipher it - just  the routine made up drivel. There wasn't any "defense" of "expansionist annexation" offered in my posts. Wholesale descriptions of Palestinian actions as "defensive" are a laugh.

 

Not that I place much stock in your pronouncements on the roots of "disruption in the Middle East", or the usual pointless "class struggle" BS, but making even this as something relating only to Israel is beyond daft.

 

Your trolling characterizations are a good indication you lack any meaningful insight or argument.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, or the resolution of contested borders.  Those questions are up to the parties involved.“

 

 

As with many things around Trump and his Administration, don’t pay too much attention to the words, observe the actions and the impact of the actions.

 

Oh, so disregarding Trump's statements and words is the thing in some situation, but on others, a minute examination of his words and supposed hidden meaning is in order. About as consistent as...well, Trump. Seems like it gets weirder, considering even on this topic no such opinion was aired with regard to previous posts from other posters insisting on doing just what you now "reject".

Edited September 9, 2018 by Morch