condominium problems

[bigginhill]

Hi,

I have a couple of problems with my condominium. 

In the last meeting ( that I did not attend. 3 committee members ratio 115/1000's and 9 proxies 311/1000's  total 426/1000's),  an increase of 10 Baht for the maintenance fee,was approved .  I remember in the old condominium act you had to have over half of the total proportion of ownership, however I've just looked at the new 2008 act and I can't find mention of the minimum quote for the increase. Maybe I'm missing it?

Secondly they have approved a new car roofing, inexistant before, and would be directly below my windows to which I object. In the 2008 condominium act at art 48 I believe that they have to have half the quota to change common area ( and could I object for security reasons? Or loss of view?) 

Thirdly to try to invalidate the meeting I am trying to get a copy of the proxies as there should be at least three people holding them that are neither employees or spouse of the chairman. 

Am I missing a part of the new condominium act or was the old one more complete?

 

[FritsSikkink]

10 THB increase, jeez, attend the meeting next time if it is that important to you.

[Peterw42]

OP, section  48 of the act says 50% of owners votes to change fees or common property. (5 and 6)

 

Section 48 A resolution on the following matters must have the votes of not less than a half of the total votes of the joint owners:

1. A purchase of real estate or acceptance as a gift of real estate with the encumbered charge being the common property,
2. A disposition of common property being the real estate,
3. A permission to a joint owner to build, decorate, make a change in, alteration on or addition to his own unit at his own expenses which adversely affect the common property or the external features of the condominium,
4. An alteration on or a change in the Bylaws relating to the use or management of the common property,
5. An alteration on or a change in the ratio of the common expenses in the Bylaws defined under Section 32 (8),
6. A construction deemed to be a change in, addition to or modification on the common property,
7. An arrangement for the exploitation from the common property.

It also says

 

In the case where the joint owners attending a meeting does not constitute the number set forth under paragraph one, a new meeting shall be summoned within fifteen days from the date of summoning the preceded meeting and that a resolution relating to the matter provided under paragraph one in this new meeting must receive the votes of not less than one third of the joint owners’ total votes.

 

So if it is the 2nd meeting or EGM etc, its a 30% vote.

I think. technically the 2nd meeting can be held 10 minutes after the 1st meeting. (if it was announced prior)

 

[BritManToo]

55 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

10 THB increase, jeez, attend the meeting next time if it is that important to you.

10bht/m2

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

10bht/m2

So 1200 HB per month / year? still won't kill you

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

So 1200 HB per month / year? still won't kill you

Its per square metre per month, so would depend on the condo size.

[Henryford]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Its per square metre per month, so would depend on the condo size.

Yes it could be 6-12,000 baht a year. But depends on what it was before. If it was really low then maybe OK to keep the condo looking good.

[bigginhill]

Thanks all,

Fritz, your right I should have attended the meeting, however I don't live in Bkk and not having a great relationship with the chairman, due to the fact the accounts haven't always been extremely clear and in a few years the brand new condo's facilities were in complete disrepair, my request (and other expat owners) that the annual meeting should take place on a set date every year, so we may make arrangements to book flights to attend has been gleefully denied.

10 Baht x sqm, yes to me not so much, to others instead significant. 10 baht on 45 Baht is just less than 25%. (55 baht has been approved)

Peterw42. THANKS.

I seem to have read only the part of art 48, thanks for pointing that out, however if as you stated the second meeting only needs 30% then they have succeded,, as 2 proxy votes voted against 426 - 78 = 348. 

Only hope is that the proxy votes are held by people who shouldn't have them, ie employees or chairman.

My beef is not really the increase ( I have a small condo 67 sqm) but the building isn't kept properly, and it doesn't seem to make any difference how much we pay in. We started off with 3 yrs paid up front on buying the condo, brand new, yet at the end of 3 yrs not a Baht was left. Money disappeared, the gym macchinery broke, the pool was dirty, owners didn't pay and the committe (treasurer) wasn't aware. And when I kicked up shit I was told it wasn't true. It was. And I finally managed to get a new manager, the monies owed were paid, gym repaired, and the 35 Baht x sqm, was raised to 45Baht. Now the hike to 55 Baht. I can't remember exactly but I think I've had the place about 10 years roughly. The chairman is a bully, and unfortunately no-one will accept the chairmanship, so we have the same one from since the beginning. 

Last question, if they approve the car roofing too with the 30% in the second meeting is there anything I can do?

Thanks to all

[bigginhill]

Before I get told .." you're right"  not your . and whatever other spelling grammar errors sorry!

[Delight]

 There are 2 methods to increase the monies that co -owners have to pay -in relation to common fees

Method 1 -Approval to modify the Rules and  Regs.The stated  value of the common fee is within the R&R. Any change to R&R needs a minimum 50% approval of co -owner vote

Metod 2 - Obtain a simple  approving majority vote at a legal general meeting.The motion is to create a Special Assessment. The  10 Baht that you refer to is typical of such an increase. The increase is however temporary and will have to be re -approved typically every 3 years. Evidence suggests that the land office is happy with   both this  arrangement and the 3 year life of such an arrangement

Suspect that 90% of condos can never succeed with method 1.   50 % attendance is impossible to achieve.

Do the minutes actually specify 'Special Assessment' and refer to the lifespan of this increase?

I assume that 50% attendance was not achieved.

[bigginhill]

No, it was not mentioned " special assessment"  Also states (wrongly) that the condominium has not increased the rates for the last 12 years ( guess I bought it 12 yrs ago?☺️)  

[bigginhill]

Delight where do I find these rules? They are not in the Act no?

[bigginhill]

Also mentioned is the consideration of an additiona payment to pay for the external painting of the building and "big repair costs"  But has been postponed 

[bigginhill]

Not mentioned special assessment, not mentioned duration. Not met the attendence in the first meeting, 426/1000 in the second, approval with 348/1000's.

 

[bigginhill]

Disambiguated, you maybe right. You may not. I bought at a good exchange rate, near Asoke, I couldn't touch the area now. I've rented and if I had the rent exchanged back to Euros I would have a nice return. But again you maybe right who knows what the future reserves

[jippytum]

You are at odds with the committee and management . As a new committee has to be elected every two years It would be easy to get yourself elected to the committee then you would have first hand knowledge of future proposals. That would require attendance at meetings and the AGM. 

The increase in the rate will be hard to overturn. However  the change to the common area effecting the outlook from your unit is a different matter and open to appeal. I assume as an owner you received the proposal  prior to the AGM 

You therefore had an opportunity to object to the change in the common area before and during the meeting .If i have read your post correctly you are leaving the decisions to other people and objecting afterwards .

[Delight]

24 minutes ago, bigginhill said:

Delight where do I find these rules? They are not in the Act no?

 I attach jpeg of section 48 . Read par.4

I also now have read that the 2nd meeting achieved 34.8% approval -job done. No need for special assessment

 

Ofcourse a 2nd meeting can only be allowed if the 1st  meeting failed to attract 50% of the total vote-in attendance (people plus proxies)

Example:If the  1st meeting attracted say 51% of the total vote -but only 42.6% voted to approve the motion-then the motion   has failed. End of story. No second meeting

I attach

 

[bigginhill]

Delight - thank you. As you say seems that I can't do much about the voting, I'll check the letter calling for the meeting and check that it specified that the things they have approved are mentioned. I'll check the proxies are valid, and I'll send a registered letter about lose of view and security problem about the roof.

Jippytum - I'm neither leaving decisions to others nor objecting after, through choice. The condominium sends the letter calling for the meeting directly to my condo address, obviously the girl in the office then signs for it. The expats and I have asked for emails to be sent with the details (as well as the registered letter to the condo for legal reasons) and it has been refused. The committee really doesn't want us to attend and is doing it's utmost to hinder attendance. The meeting could be organised for the same weekend every year so we may book tickets but that too has been refused.  This has created the proxy problem that has occurred, the other expats have left blank proxies in the office fearing with short notice they would not be able to attend ( one gave directions that no increase in spenditure was to be agreed and seems this has been followed). Hence I would like to know who held the proxies. Only the three committee members were present, no other owner. 

Does anyone know if these increases have to be communicated to the Land Office, or is it an internal Juristic person thing.

 

[bigginhill]

ok, I have been sent a copy of the letter calling for the meeting. On the agenda apart from the usual approval of financial stuff and appointment of chairman etc.

Agenda 6. To consider increasing the maintenance fee by 10 Baht. 

Agenda 7. to consider adding extra money for rennovation

Agenda 8 Other matters if any

Can it be objected that the car roofing was not mentioned  (other matters covers a multitude of sins) ? 

And whereas the previous agendas say "approval of ..."  for the increase says " consider" 

Guys what do you think?

[anfh]

As an ex committee member and chairman, I can advise that realistically,  to increase the maintenance fee, you MUST get 51% to aggree . However , this is not 51% of the owners, it is related to the square metreage of the condo. Each person votes has a vote which represents the sq meterage of their condo. Therefore, if someone owns a 20sqm condo, he does not carry the same voting power as someone owning 100sqm condo. It’s very odd how they do this.

Also, it is based on the entire block voting and not just those that attend the meeting. They must get agreement of 51% of entire block.

this voting method is ONLY needed for the increase of maintenance. Other proposals can be carried by votes cast by those attending the meeting.

As far as proxy votes go, committee members cannot carry other people’s proxy votes, and proxy voters can only carry 3 proxy votes from other owners.

 

judging by your figures, the vote should not be carried as they did not get 51% of block, looks like they took vote and based result on votes from only those attending plus proxy votes.

 

Further to this, if they did not get the percentage they wanted etc, the committee can call another meeting within 14 days, at this meeting, they do not need the same percentage, they only need 30% ( I think - don’t have figures with me ) . But in order to do this meeting, they must contact all owners and inform them of second meeting and advise as to why this is needed etc. This gives those that did not attend first meetin, the opportunity to have their say. 

[Delight]

7 hours ago, bigginhill said:

 

Does anyone know if these increases have to be communicated to the Land Office, or is it an internal Juristic person thing.

 

 The minutes of the meeting have to be sent to Land Office. I think that copies(or maybe originals) of voting slips need to be included.

[Delight]

5 hours ago, anfh said:

 

Also, it is based on the entire block voting and not just those that attend the meeting. They must get agreement of 51% of entire block.

 If the attendees at a  general meeting with proxies included account for  just 50% of the total building vote -and they all support the motion-then it goes thru.

[bigginhill]

Delight if I go to the land office can they tell me if the Juristic person has sent in everything? If they haven't are there any conseguences?

Thanks

[essox essox]

take your complaint up with the Juristic Person

[AlQaholic]

On 9/12/2018 at 7:47 AM, Peterw42 said:

OP, section  48 of the act says 50% of owners votes to change fees or common property. (5 and 6)

 

Section 48 A resolution on the following matters must have the votes of not less than a half of the total votes of the joint owners:

1. A purchase of real estate or acceptance as a gift of real estate with the encumbered charge being the common property,
2. A disposition of common property being the real estate,
3. A permission to a joint owner to build, decorate, make a change in, alteration on or addition to his own unit at his own expenses which adversely affect the common property or the external features of the condominium,
4. An alteration on or a change in the Bylaws relating to the use or management of the common property,
5. An alteration on or a change in the ratio of the common expenses in the Bylaws defined under Section 32 (8),
6. A construction deemed to be a change in, addition to or modification on the common property,
7. An arrangement for the exploitation from the common property.

It also says

 

In the case where the joint owners attending a meeting does not constitute the number set forth under paragraph one, a new meeting shall be summoned within fifteen days from the date of summoning the preceded meeting and that a resolution relating to the matter provided under paragraph one in this new meeting must receive the votes of not less than one third of the joint owners’ total votes.

 

So if it is the 2nd meeting or EGM etc, its a 30% vote.

I think. technically the 2nd meeting can be held 10 minutes after the 1st meeting. (if it was announced prior)

 

The land office must approve the AGM procedures, agendas and minutes, within a certain time after the AGM. If the proceedings do not conform to the condominium act, the duty of the land office is to reject the AGM as a whole. 

[Pattaya46]

Hi,

Just a remark about this sentence in the original Post:  "In the last meeting ( that I did not attend. 3 committee members ratio 115/1000's and 9 proxies 311/1000's  total 426/1000's),  an increase of 10 Baht for the maintenance fee was approved . "

I am unsure if I read it well, but I think that the Committee members are not allowed to have proxy at an AGM...