As Trump embraces more tariffs, U.S. business readies public fight

[BigBadGeordie]

2 minutes ago, Scott said:

It's trolling and I suggest you stop.

 

Done deal.

Finished now.

But it is exceptional.

Better than the best.

Good, very very good.

[Nyezhov]

Trade wars mean casualties. This is a world battle...who will essentially run the world....the USA or the Chinese.

 

If the Chinese win, bet their wont be any posts allowed here as to the bad manners of Chinese tourists or how mean their government is. ?

[Tailwagsdog]

12 hours ago, farcanell said:

Good point dude... a lot of countries have become over reliant on the USA.... obviously a bad mistake which needs correcting.

 

i vote for buying more Chinese goods, even though I don’t need anything, to help protect China from this rapacious and irrational potus, because I like free trade

 

anyway... it’s about time that the adults stood up

Are you serious? Do you know where the world is heading with over reliant supply from a fascist dictatorship like China? This gives the enenmy of freedom & democracy too much power. Can i suggest you read history & some in depth news & opinion from varied sources eg The Economist. Then rejoin the discussion, and stop reading The Global Times. The Chinese Communist Party Propaganda Daily.

[riclag]

Americans for free trade is just a facade.More activist groups such as AMERICANS For Free Trade that are opposed to any new national growth in AMERICAN manufacturing sectors don’t have America’s interests in their plan for globalization .Anyone who opposes new growth such as The USA being the leader in oil manufacturing ,should stop crying and whining


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[bristolboy]

10 hours ago, BigBadGeordie said:

I like Donald Trump, he proves the American Dream.

The American dream of being born into great riches?

[Monomial]

What is fascinating to watch about this whole situation is how specific groups react to these changes. For example, what is confounding the defenders of the status quo, is that when they point out all the negative ramifications of Trump's policies to his supporters, rather than causing resentment, they actually seem to be having the opposite effect. It is causing them to double down on Trump. Of course, this makes many think Trump supporters are just idiots who can't see reality, but the truth is much more complex.

 

The fact is, Trump has given his detractors hundreds of opportunities, but nobody has yet given the people an alternative. These trade wars aren't about numbers and whether bankers can show that traditional macro economic indicators are growing or declining. It is that people no longer actually believe in these macro economic indicators, therefore they are simply irrelevant to much of the public. When the Fed says they can't just "print money", the average person says "why not?" You did it to bail out Wall Street. Just do it again. Make everyone too big to fail. Trump is saying the same thing, and the people love him for it. Not because they are looking at how it effects their lives in the short term, but because it is different. Wildly different.

 

Trump is causing chaos, and that is what people want at the moment. The only way to beat Trump, is to promise even more chaos than Trump is currently creating. And that is not what Trump's detractors are offering. They are offering a return to their version of stability, and anyone who thinks the American public is going to accept that just hasn't spoken to an average rural American recently.

 

Expect more tariffs and a further turning away from free trade. This is what is coming, and cackling about traditional economic indicators and how much this is hurting people is just stupid. Trump supporters don't care. No matter how many jobs a government lobbyist says are lost, the previous system is still unsustainable, and everyone has recognized it. What Trump is promising is truly different. That is exciting. People want to see it through. Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead.
 

Hate Trump? Then put up a candidate even more reckless than him. This is the new world. There is no path back to what was before.

[bristolboy]

I remember when Sarah Palin called some rural area the "real Ameriica".

 

Yours is just more of the same

 

"They are offering a return to their version of stability, and anyone who thinks the American public is going to accept that just hasn't spoken to an average rural American recently."

[vinegarbase]

1 hour ago, Monomial said:

No matter how many jobs a government lobbyist says are lost, the previous system is still unsustainable, and everyone has recognized it.

This what always baffles me. Suddenly Trump decides to raise tariffs to try to get some concessions from China to help correct some very concerning imbalances in the US/China trade dynamic and suddenly Trump is the bad guy. Yet the status quo of running almost $400 billion USD in trade deficits with China is a great thing to do? This just goes to show 1 of 2 things. Those that are against Trump are the enemies of the USA or they are absolute morons to be so deluded to think that losing $400 billion a year is somehow good business. 

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, Tailwagsdog said:

Are you serious? Do you know where the world is heading with over reliant supply from a fascist dictatorship like China? This gives the enenmy of freedom & democracy too much power. Can i suggest you read history & some in depth news & opinion from varied sources eg The Economist. Then rejoin the discussion, and stop reading The Global Times. The Chinese Communist Party Propaganda Daily.

 

1 hour ago, Monomial said:

That is exciting. People want to see it through. Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead.

Lol.... not really.... I won’t actually be changing my spending norms, but truthfully, I’m more afraid of how trump can effect my life, right now, than I am about China and it’s facist dictatorship, because one seems normal, whilst the other is a joker... a wild card.

 

now... if you have a wild card in your hand, you might be laughing... if you don’t, well.... not happy.

 

yall have a wild card in your hand... good for you... but as long as there’s roo’s loose in the top paddock, I support almost any action counter to trumps actions, especially ones that might make the average man vote against the administration, even if it’s suffering that is the impetus for change.

 

make America great again... fine... but not at my expense. If the American people want that trade deficit reduced.... just stop buying Chinese crap!

 

Oh... lol.... and I’m pretty sure other  posters don’t want me to start making historical references (although I did already sneak one in that was missed ?).... 

 

A measure of predictability brings stability... historically, stability  brings peace. China appears more stable.... the US appears more unpredictable.... 

[mike324]

The chinese government has already called for farmers to plant soy beans. China is the biggest importer of US soy beans, so in a few years time, the soy bean farmers from the US will be suffering.

[neeray]

Just now, mike324 said:

The chinese government has already called for farmers to plant soy beans. China is the biggest importer of US soy beans, so in a few years time, the soy bean farmers from the US will be suffering.

This is just one of hundreds of examples where Trump shoots himself (and America) in the foot.

Classic: Put mouth in gear before brain.

[farcanell]

4 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

This what always baffles me. Suddenly Trump decides to raise tariffs to try to get some concessions from China to help correct some very concerning imbalances in the US/China trade dynamic and suddenly Trump is the bad guy. Yet the status quo of running almost $400 billion USD in trade deficits with China is a great thing to do? This just goes to show 1 of 2 things. Those that are against Trump are the enemies of the USA or they are absolute morons to be so deluded to think that losing $400 billion a year is somehow good business. 

Or maybe the morons are the ones buying Chinese crap, rather than supporting American businesses, by buying their quality goods.

 

anyway... that is not what makes trump a bad guy... it’s the “suddenly” bit, that makes him a bad guy. 

[tomacht8]

19 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

This what always baffles me. Suddenly Trump decides to raise tariffs to try to get some concessions from China to help correct some very concerning imbalances in the US/China trade dynamic and suddenly Trump is the bad guy. Yet the status quo of running almost $400 billion USD in trade deficits with China is a great thing to do? This just goes to show 1 of 2 things. Those that are against Trump are the enemies of the USA or they are absolute morons to be so deluded to think that losing $400 billion a year is somehow good business. 

Nobody losing $400 billion. In return, the US gets for it products. The problem is that the US lives beyond their means and finances too much with credit.

Edited September 13, 2018 by tomacht8

[vinegarbase]

 

4 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Nobody losing $400 billion. In return, the US gets for it products. The problem is that the US lives beyond their means and finances to much with credit.

I'm not debating that the US lives beyond their means I am 100% in agreement. However, the US economy losing $400 billion a year  is money that leaves the country instead of stays in the country. I'm not saying there is not going to be winners and losers in trade but when one country has high tariffs and another does not, when one country forces joint ventures on foreign companies in many sectors while the other does not, and one continues to make promises to open certain sectors of their market and never does yet the other side has almost no restrictions then there is a big problem that needs to be fixed. China has played stupid incompetent US leaders for decades with empty promises ever since Deng Xiao Ping opened China to the world in the 70's.

 

 China has a very protectionist market and not just to the US but to the EU as well. China loves 'free trade' only when it benefits them. The EU and China have both slapped tariffs on each others products? https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-slaps-new-tariffs-on-china-taiwan-steel-imports-1485518002 Why is no one talking about this since tariffs are so bad?  Why is China allowed to have tariffs but others not? Why is the EU allowed have tariffs but others not? Hypocrisy! It's only wrong when the US does it right? I am glad Trump is finally standing up for the interests of the USA to get the country a better deal. 

[mtls2005]

 

50 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

I am glad Trump is finally standing up for the interests of the USA to get the country a better deal. 

 

I guess it would be good if the president could articulate his overall plan, and goals for his trade war(s), to the American public, and thereby enlist our "support". Let us know what we'll need to endure, and what constitutes "victory".

 

Are tariffs meant as a negotiating tool, or to force other countries to lower their tariffs, or to more effectively balance trade between one or more major partners? Or are they meant to claw back low-paying jobs to America? Or are they meant to "protect" specific jobs and industries

 

Are these tariffs even legal? Invoking "Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962 which under certain circumstances allows the president to impose tariffs based on the recommendation from the U.S. Secretary of Commerce if "an article is being imported into the United States in such quantities or under such circumstances as to threaten or impair the national security.", with tariffs on say iPhones legal?

 

Shouldn't the Congress reclaim their duty to oversee trade? 

 

At least the Tariff Act of 1930 was named after a Senator (Reed Smoot) and a Congressman (Willis Hawley). That act was probably not a success?

 

 

 

[tomacht8]

21 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

 

I'm not debating that the US lives beyond their means I am 100% in agreement. However, the US economy losing $400 billion a year  is money that leaves the country instead of stays in the country. I'm not saying there is not going to be winners and losers in trade but when one country has high tariffs and another does not, when one country forces joint ventures on foreign companies in many sectors while the other does not, and one continues to make promises to open certain sectors of their market and never does yet the other side has almost no restrictions then there is a big problem that needs to be fixed. China has played stupid incompetent US leaders for decades with empty promises ever since Deng Xiao Ping opened China to the world in the 70's.

 

 China has a very protectionist market and not just to the US but to the EU as well. China loves 'free trade' only when it benefits them. The EU and China have both slapped tariffs on each others products? https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-slaps-new-tariffs-on-china-taiwan-steel-imports-1485518002 Why is no one talking about this since tariffs are so bad?  Why is China allowed to have tariffs but others not? Why is the EU allowed have tariffs but others not? Hypocrisy! It's only wrong when the US does it right? I am glad Trump is finally standing up for the interests of the USA to get the country a better deal. 

This is not that easy,
why else does trump let sew his re-election flags in china?

 

The US as well as the EU can not compete with China with the wage costs. 

How could consumers in US / EU pay the more expensive homemade products if their net income stagnates or even falls?

About more loans?
Not exactly the solution.

 

The EU is also pissed off by the pirated copies from China.
The Chinese are purposely buying key technologies worldwide.

If trump were not so stupid he would look for allies in this matter.

 

The question also arises of how attractive and progressive US products are in global comparison.

Trump prefers to dig coal out of the earth again like 50 years ago.

And spends an incredible amount of money on weapons that do not add value in terms of value added without a land reclamation war.

 

If the us would invest only half of its war budget in advanced technologies, the US would have more competitive products again.

 

And where is the difference between

 $400 billion leaving the country and the same amount hiding the super rich in offshore accounts?

 

The distribution of income in the US is unbelievably poorly distributed. (Gemini coefficient). Few have much and many have nothing. The rich US is not even able to organize an affordable health care and pension insurance for its people.

 

There are no easy solutions to complex problems in our networked world.
I do not understand why you celebrate trump. He brings only one-dimensional propaganda claims.
There is not a sophisticated or intelligent thought to solve the problems effectively. He only makes himself and the elite richer.

[billd766]

21 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

Very unbiased article quoting from a corrupt lobbyist. These tariffs are going to something particularly beneficial and that is to help break apart the Chinese world supply monopoly. Countries are foolish to become over reliant on any foreign power and have a diversified supply chain is smart. These tariffs are going to help in that regard.

 

But it is OK to rely on the USA for civil and military aircraft.

 

quote from you "Countries are foolish to become over reliant on any foreign power and have a diversified supply chain is smart."

[candide]

3 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

This what always baffles me. Suddenly Trump decides to raise tariffs to try to get some concessions from China to help correct some very concerning imbalances in the US/China trade dynamic and suddenly Trump is the bad guy. Yet the status quo of running almost $400 billion USD in trade deficits with China is a great thing to do? This just goes to show 1 of 2 things. Those that are against Trump are the enemies of the USA or they are absolute morons to be so deluded to think that losing $400 billion a year is somehow good business. 

What baffles me is that Trump's supporters don't realise that most of the U.S. trade deficit worldwide is simply due to the lack of competitiveness of its manufacturing industry (this is very different for services). For example, Germany has a trade surplus and it's not because of low wages, low social costs or low taxes, it's because the German economy is very competitive.

 

On top of it, in the case of China, trade figures are misleading. Many products are just assembled in China from parts from all over the world (I.e. The example of the Iphone). So the trade deficit with China partly hides a trade deficit with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc....

If the trade deficit calculation with China would exclude components from non-Chinese countries, the figures would be different.

"....in value added terms, the U.S. trade deficit with China was only $239 billion last year, 36 percent lower than the headline number."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-apple/designed-in-california-made-in-china-how-the-iphone-skews-u-s-trade-deficit-idUSKBN1GX1GZ

 

 

[mikebike]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

Americans for free trade is just a facade.More activist groups such as AMERICANS For Free Trade that are opposed to any new national growth in AMERICAN manufacturing sectors don’t have America’s interests in their plan for globalization .Anyone who opposes new growth such as The USA being the leader in oil manufacturing ,should stop crying and whining


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Oil manufacturing is "new growth"? Really?

 

I would have thought renewable energy was "new growth" but that sector has been abandoned if favour of coal and oil... not exactly new growth sectors of the economy.

[bristolboy]

48 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Oil manufacturing is "new growth"? Really?

 

I would have thought renewable energy was "new growth" but that sector has been abandoned if favour of coal and oil... not exactly new growth sectors of the economy.

Well, Trump the current government may be abandoning support of renewables, but they are already cheaper than coal and are now competetive with gas. Given the rapid increase in the efficiency of solar and wind power, soon they will be outcompeting gas too

[Monomial]

4 hours ago, farcanell said:

make America great again... fine... but not at my expense. If the American people want that trade deficit reduced.... just stop buying Chinese crap! 

 

 

Why not at your expense though? You are one of the ones who benefited from the previous 50 years of policy that has caused so much suffering to the wage class. If you like the current situation, it is because you benefited from it, and you want to keep benefiting. No problem there. I get it.

 

But what are you offering to those who lost during that period? Eat cake? You can't continue to have what has been happening. So if you don't like Trump. Fine. I think he's a psychopath and I'd be happy to see him go. But come up with something radically different to offer people. And yes, everyone is likely going to have to pay for it. You, me, the incredibly rich, and the poor. This isn't a situation you can disown. It's not that type of world anymore.

 

Unless you are ready to offer that, you are going to continue to get Trumps, or worse....

 

 

[farcanell]

17 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

Why not at your expense though? You are one of the ones who benefited from the previous 50 years of policy that has caused so much suffering to the wage class. If you like the current situation, it is because you benefited from it, and you want to keep benefiting. No problem there. I get it.

 

But what are you offering to those who lost during that period? Eat cake? You can't continue to have what has been happening. So if you don't like Trump. Fine. I think he's a psychopath and I'd be happy to see him go. But come up with something radically different to offer people. And yes, everyone is likely going to have to pay for it. You, me, the incredibly rich, and the poor. This isn't a situation you can disown. It's not that type of world anymore.

 

Unless you are ready to offer that, you are going to continue to get Trumps, or worse....

 

 

That’s a beautiful post... well done.

 

but.... what you want to exchange, is what the world has been chasing since we first walked... peace and relative stability.

 

this is not something that should be risked on a whim, repeating the cycle of misery and war that has been mans existence

 

thats not to suggest the change is bad..., it’s not... it’s good.... (don’t listen to my third wife!)... but it doesn’t have to happen suddenly.... your almost advocating a form of nihilism  

 

and... objecting about trump is to get rid of trump for someone sane... people maybe like the 43 (?) that preceded him.

 

oh... and I’m one of the ones that have benefited from the actions of my descendants .... and perhaps attacking trumpist policy implementation may allow my decendants to profit from my actions.. that’s a risk I’m prepared to take, on their behalf, just as my ancestors took risks on my behalf ? 

 

oops... the stuffing fell out of that straw man... dice it slice it any way you want it

 

lol... just had to recheck which thread I was on before posting 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, candide said:

What baffles me is that Trump's supporters don't realise that most of the U.S. trade deficit worldwide is simply due to the lack of competitiveness of its manufacturing industry (this is very different for services). For example, Germany has a trade surplus and it's not because of low wages, low social costs or low taxes, it's because the German economy is very competitive.

 

On top of it, in the case of China, trade figures are misleading. Many products are just assembled in China from parts from all over the world (I.e. The example of the Iphone). So the trade deficit with China partly hides a trade deficit with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc....

If the trade deficit calculation with China would exclude components from non-Chinese countries, the figures would be different.

"....in value added terms, the U.S. trade deficit with China was only $239 billion last year, 36 percent lower than the headline number."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-apple/designed-in-california-made-in-china-how-the-iphone-skews-u-s-trade-deficit-idUSKBN1GX1GZ

 

 

Partly true. In fact, German exports are subsidized by the Euro which is undervaluled in relation to the German economy.

That said, Germany's success is owed in large part to the fact that it has strong labor unions, strong cooperation between unions and management, and strong government backing for technical education and apprenticeships.

[mike324]

5 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

 

China has a very protectionist market and not just to the US but to the EU as well. China loves 'free trade' only when it benefits them. The EU and China have both slapped tariffs on each others products? https://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-slaps-new-tariffs-on-china-taiwan-steel-imports-1485518002 Why is no one talking about this since tariffs are so bad?  Why is China allowed to have tariffs but others not? Why is the EU allowed have tariffs but others not? Hypocrisy! It's only wrong when the US does it right? I am glad Trump is finally standing up for the interests of the USA to get the country a better deal. 

I think your example is not the greatest. The EU don't just go raising tariffs because one man said to do it, they did it because China was dumping their steel at low prices. And now they are taxing goods from the US as a result of Trumps own action. Very different from what Trump is doing, Trump has no under standing of basic economics. 

 

Perhaps Trump should call it a sin tax, instead of raising taxes just because of trade deficit. 

[bristolboy]

5 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

 

Why is China allowed to have tariffs but others not? Why is the EU allowed have tariffs but others not? Hypocrisy! It's only wrong when the US does it right? I am glad Trump is finally standing up for the interests of the USA to get the country a better deal. 

Do you realize the the US has always been applying tariffs on goods from the EU?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us-import-tariffs-by-sector-2013/

And on light trucks which is by far the hottest sector of the consumer auto market in the USA, the US imposes a 25% tariff on imports.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

 

[Monomial]

58 minutes ago, farcanell said:

That’s a beautiful post... well done.

 

but.... what you want to exchange, is what the world has been chasing since we first walked... peace and relative stability. 

 

this is not something that should be risked on a whim, repeating the cycle of misery and war that has been mans existence

 

thats not to suggest the change is bad..., it’s not... it’s good.... (don’t listen to my third wife!)... but it doesn’t have to happen suddenly.... your almost advocating a form of nihilism  

 

 

What you call "peace and relative stability" has come at too high a cost for many people. The fact that you don't feel overburdened merely shows that you are one of the ones benefiting from the current scheme, rather than one of those subsidizing it.

 

The world is chasing peace and stability yes, but only in the sense that everyone wants their particular version of it. Sadly, the current system does not provide that in a meaningful way as perceived by the majority. It is only a mirage currently enjoyed by the privileged. The majority are struggling under the weight of what you call "peace and stability", and what it actually means to them.

 

This has been coming for a long time. It is not unusual in the historical context. If you want to talk historical references where people rejected "peace and stability" in favor of change, there are countless examples. And yes, the result of change usually brings a Napolean. But it does change, it upsets the order, and gives the underclass a new chance on a new path.

 

That is where we are headed right now. I do not advocate it. I merely point out this is where we are at in history. You can't go back.

 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

What you call "peace and relative stability" has come at too high a cost for many people. The fact that you don't feel overburdened merely shows that you are one of the ones benefiting from the current scheme, rather than one of those subsidizing it.

 

The world is chasing peace and stability yes, but only in the sense that everyone wants their particular version of it. Sadly, the current system does not provide that in a meaningful way as perceived by the majority. It is only a mirage currently enjoyed by the privileged. The majority are struggling under the weight of what you call "peace and stability", and what it actually means to them.

 

This has been coming for a long time. It is not unusual in the historical context. If you want to talk historical references where people rejected "peace and stability" in favor of change, there are countless examples. And yes, the result of change usually brings a Napolean. But it does change, it upsets the order, and gives the underclass a new chance on a new path.

 

That is where we are headed right now. I do not advocate it. I merely point out this is where we are at in history. You can't go back.

 

Is your idea of change tax cuts that massively favor the wealthy? Lessening regulations  on big banks and hedge funds? Attacking consumer protections? Because that seems to be Trump's idea of change.

[candide]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Partly true. In fact, German exports are subsidized by the Euro which is undervaluled in relation to the German economy.

That said, Germany's success is owed in large part to the fact that it has strong labor unions, strong cooperation between unions and management, and strong government backing for technical education and apprenticeships.

The current exchange rate of the euro surely helps. However, they also exhibited trade surplus when the euro was (probably) overvalued.

Add to your list a financing system that facilitates long-term investments (as opposed to the attention put on quarterly results in the USA), an attention to quality, efficient consumer associations, a sense of organisation, etc... (I precise I am not German). In brief, a coherent system.

[Monomial]

31 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Is your idea of change tax cuts that massively favor the wealthy? Lessening regulations  on big banks and hedge funds? Attacking consumer protections? Because that seems to be Trump's idea of change.

 

No, but it is also irrelevant to the discussion. Put up a candidate that will be even more chaotic and radical than Trump that doesn't have these characteristics and you might find support among the public. The issue is not what Trump is doing, but simply the fact that he is rejecting the logic of the last 50 years. Concentrate there, and you have a chance of moving forward. Try to save the status quo including things like free trade and open borders, and you are destined to fail.

[farcanell]

36 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

What you call "peace and relative stability" has come at too high a cost for many people. The fact that you don't feel overburdened merely shows that you are one of the ones benefiting from the current scheme, rather than one of those subsidizing it.

 

The world is chasing peace and stability yes, but only in the sense that everyone wants their particular version of it. Sadly, the current system does not provide that in a meaningful way as perceived by the majority. It is only a mirage currently enjoyed by the privileged. The majority are struggling under the weight of what you call "peace and stability", and what it actually means to them.

 

This has been coming for a long time. It is not unusual in the historical context. If you want to talk historical references where people rejected "peace and stability" in favor of change, there are countless examples. And yes, the result of change usually brings a Napolean. But it does change, it upsets the order, and gives the underclass a new chance on a new path.

 

That is where we are headed right now. I do not advocate it. I merely point out this is where we are at in history. You can't go back.

 

Napoleon... trump...revolution  ???

 

Ok...

anyway...

Enjoy your trade war