As Trump embraces more tariffs, U.S. business readies public fight

[habanero]

11 hours ago, Tailwagsdog said:

Are you serious? Do you know where the world is heading with over reliant supply from a fascist dictatorship like China? This gives the enenmy of freedom & democracy too much power. Can i suggest you read history & some in depth news & opinion from varied sources eg The Economist. Then rejoin the discussion, and stop reading The Global Times. The Chinese Communist Party Propaganda Daily.

How can anyone that is free to respond to anything in this forum root for China? A place where even Google is outlawed.

 Get a VPN you say? Also, outlawed. Serious consequences if caught. 

[bristolboy]

11 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

No, but it is also irrelevant to the discussion. Put up a candidate that will be even more chaotic and radical than Trump that doesn't have these characteristics and you might find support among the public. The issue is not what Trump is doing, but simply the fact that he is rejecting the logic of the last 50 years. Concentrate there, and you have a chance of moving forward. Try to save the status quo including things like free trade and open borders, and you are destined to fail.

No. What I think is needed is a true populist movement. I think support for it is building. Affordable health care is now the #1 concern of voters.  It isn't free trade and such that have hurt workers most. Workers in the advanced economies of Northern Europe have much more secure and better lives than do most American workers. They don't run the risk of being bankrupted by a medical emergency. They can afford to get university educations. We'll just have to see if it's possible to get voters to focus on how the Republicans have been shafting them.

[mikebike]

53 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

What you call "peace and relative stability" has come at too high a cost for many people. The fact that you don't feel overburdened merely shows that you are one of the ones benefiting from the current scheme, rather than one of those subsidizing it.

 

The world is chasing peace and stability yes, but only in the sense that everyone wants their particular version of it. Sadly, the current system does not provide that in a meaningful way as perceived by the majority. It is only a mirage currently enjoyed by the privileged. The majority are struggling under the weight of what you call "peace and stability", and what it actually means to them.

 

This has been coming for a long time. It is not unusual in the historical context. If you want to talk historical references where people rejected "peace and stability" in favor of change, there are countless examples. And yes, the result of change usually brings a Napolean. But it does change, it upsets the order, and gives the underclass a new chance on a new path.

 

That is where we are headed right now. I do not advocate it. I merely point out this is where we are at in history. You can't go back.

 

So tell me how all those new chances for the underclass throughout history, initiated by conflict, have changed anything one iota for the "underclass"?

 

Doing the same thing over and over again with the same result is the definition of what again?

[vinegarbase]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Do you realize the the US has always been applying tariffs on goods from the EU?

Yes, as I have been saying. The whole premise of this argument is that the US has tariffs = bad, but somehow EU and China has tariffs = good. If China and the EU can have tariffs then why can't the US?

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, vinegarbase said:

Yes, as I have been saying. The whole premise of this argument is that the US has tariffs = bad, but somehow EU and China has tariffs = good. If China and the EU can have tariffs then why can't the US?

I'm looking in vain to find some prominent American who says China's tariffs are good. Or even the EU's. What critics have been saying is that the EU's tariffs are already very low as were the USA's tariffs on EU imports. Until Trump came along. And the imposition of those tariffs on Europe in the name of national security was nonsensical.

As for China, they should be gone after. But it was sheer stupidity to start by imposing tariffs on primary materials. That's the way to hurt China the least and US businesses the most.

And when the government was about to take serious action against a big Chinese producer of mobile phones because of its various violations, Trump eased up and let them survive. How's that for not sending a message?

And it was even sheerer stupidity on Trump's part to alienate all  of the USA's most important potential allies when you want to take on a behemoth like China.

 

[vinegarbase]

5 hours ago, habanero said:

How can anyone that is free to respond to anything in this forum root for China?

That is the issue right there. You are talking to people who obviously hate freedom and anyone's opinion that is against their own. Let them walk into the jaws of the hungry lion. I did import/export work in China for over a decade and let me tell you they will eat these naive people alive and don't care about foreigners interests in the slightest. They are itching to get back on top to what they view as their rightful place as the center of the world. They can't wait to get back at the world for years of what they view as humiliation and oppression by western powers and dream of having western nations kowtowing and coming to pay tribute to their new emperor. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by vinegarbase

[vinegarbase]

2 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I'm looking in vain to find some prominent American who says China's tariffs are good. Or even the EU's.

Then why all the world focus on the US raising tariffs on China as if this is something out of the ordinary? Since tariffs are normal around the world why the sudden outrage about all this? How come everyone is crying about the evil US tariffs but yet I don't hear the 24/7 media exposure and people crying for China and the EU to drop their tariffs since they are so bad. 

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, vinegarbase said:

Then why all the world focus on the US raising tariffs on China as if this is something out of the ordinary? Since tariffs are normal around the world why the sudden outrage about all this? How come everyone is crying about the evil US tariffs but yet I don't hear the 24/7 media exposure and people crying for China and the EU to drop their tariffs since they are so bad. 

Because massive tariff increases in this day and age are out of the ordinary. And people aren't crying out about the tariffs the US had existed before Trump's huge impositions.. They're crying out about going after allies on specious grounds and going after China in such a way that the harm it does the USA is going to outweigh the benefits. As I pointed out, he began with tariffs on primary materials, which is the stupidest kind of tariff to impose. It's only because he's an ignoramus about trade that the took that approach.

[candide]

1 hour ago, vinegarbase said:

Then why all the world focus on the US raising tariffs on China as if this is something out of the ordinary? Since tariffs are normal around the world why the sudden outrage about all this? How come everyone is crying about the evil US tariffs but yet I don't hear the 24/7 media exposure and people crying for China and the EU to drop their tariffs since they are so bad. 

I am getting confused. Which tariffs are you talking about? Before Trump introduced higher tariffs because of trade imbalance or after?

 

Before that, tariffs between the US and  the EU were on average at the same level, around 3%. They were just distributed differently, i.e. higher for cars in the EU and higher for trucks and pick-ups in the USA. So there was no reason for Trump to raise tariffs for imports from EU. The USA never had, on average, lower tariffs than the EU. Stop whining about it, it's simply not true. 

 

After Trump raised tariffs, the EU and China also raised their tariffs in response. So actually, it is Trump who started imposing unmoderated tariffs, not EU and China.

 

Having said that, I agree that there is something to do about China, in particular about non-tariff barriers. However the moron is doing it in a way that will harm his own country and will probably not be successful. Instead of confronting with the EU, he should have allied with the EU to put a concerted pressure on China.

[GOLDBUGGY]

On 9/12/2018 at 4:51 PM, mtls2005 said:

 

Wave wand. Poof. Magic. All is well.

 

Maybe just list a couple of the "benefits" of these tariffs? 

 

Other than increased revenue for the U.S. Treasury, I'm not seein' a whole lot of benefits.

 

Maybe you can peer into the mind of Trump and share what you see?

I don't know.

 

But Logic would tell me that with Tariffs you would be buying and paying more for a product made outside of the USA that can be made cheaper now in the USA. So as a Producer of this product you are more than like going to set up shop at home now, as it would be cheaper than importing them.

 

Take Car Tyres for the Automobile Industry. As a Car Manufactorer, you look at Production Costs. If it is cheaper to buy Car Tyres Imported from China, then to buy them from the Local Tyre Factory, you will do so. But if this price has been equalled out or cost more, by Tariffs, you will buy locally. That in turn would create more jobs. 

 

Silicon Valley in California was the original home to Apple, Cisco, Adobe, Yahoo, Hewlet-Packard, Intel, Google, and many others and where most of the the worlds Silicon Chips, (semiconductor) were made. Now it seems most of these are imported from places like China. And the list go on. 

 

The Silicon Chip was invested in the USA. So I do think that the US sells, or gives away, its Technology at too low of a price. Maybe they should do what China did with Tea, and keep them as a highly guarded secret. Instead of giving them to one company who can now increase there profits. 

 

Few people know or ever heard of "John Bardeen". But besides him being an American Electrical Engineer, and the only person who won the Nobel Prize twice, for Physics, he invented the the "Transister". Prior to Transisters Vaccum Tubes were used which are large and bulcky,. The old guys will remember them in there Old TV's. 

 

So Bardeens Invention reduced the size of the equipment needed this type of electric components. Thus you could have smaller TV's for example. But what happened to his invention? Did he become a Billion-Aire? 

 

The Japanese took his invention and made a fortune from it. Sony invented the Transistor Radio which was more popular than TV's in its prime. That is how this muti-billion dollar company got its start. Then they moved on to smaller TV's and so on. to becoe the Sony we all know today. Since then Japan has also taken several other American Inventions and either improved on them or made them smaller. Like the smaller Car for example, which was unheard of in the 60's and 70's. Except maybe for the Mini Austin. .

 

So maybe it is time for the USA to keep there own inventions and create jobs at home and make money from them, like they used to, and like the rest of the world does today.      

[mtls2005]

54 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I don't know.

 

Obviously.

 

54 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

But Logic would tell me that with Tariffs you would be buying and paying more for a product made outside of the USA that can be made cheaper now in the USA. So as a Producer of this product you are more than like going to set up shop at home now, as it would be cheaper than importing them.

 

So in the short term, American consumers would pay more for their "tyres"? And then what, Goodyear suddenly decides to relocate their tyre manufacturing from China to the U.S.A., where their manufacturing costs will be higher? Or will they relocate to a country which has no/lower tariffs? Tyre manufacturing strikes me as a highly-automated industry, with more robots, and very few workers.

 

This grade-school, simplistic view of global trends, and a desire to claw-back low-wage jobs is, well, not very well thought out.

[vinegarbase]

19 hours ago, candide said:

After Trump raised tariffs, the EU and China also raised their tariffs in response.

No, China did not raise their tariffs as a response because China already had high tariffs in place. This all started when Deng Xiao Ping back in the late 70's opened China to the world to do business. The Western world thought that China would follow their lead and become a democratic country with free, open markets. That never happened. Because of incompetent western politicians holding out hope of being able one day to enjoy full market access in China and believing that China would change they looked the other way to China's mercantilism and unbalanced trade agreements.

 

Now it is too late and Donald Trump has known these things for a long time. China has waged the largest espionage campaign in the world against almost every country in the world and saved countless billions in R&D cost's and years in research and development through this theft. Combine this them putting high tariffs on US products (was 25% for cars) while most Chinese products enjoy almost zero tariffs to the US, forcing joint ventures with Chinese companies and forcing technology transfers for US businesses in China, having many restricted and prohibited industries to FDI, and the US running 200-400 billion dollars in trade deficits for years Trump is the only one bold enough do try to do something for once for the best interest of the USA. 

 

Most Americans should know already that we are not in a trade war because the President has already declared it. “We are not in a trade war with China, that war was lost many years ago by the foolish, or incompetent, people who represented the U.S.,” Trump also stated, “When you’re already $500 Billion DOWN, you can’t lose!”

 

This is all to try to rebalance some of these unbalanced trade deals. This is also going to be beneficial because it is going to help decrease the over reliance on China for all things and help break up their global manufacturing and supply monopoly as businesses start to consider other destinations besides China and increase diversity in the global supply chain. This is a very good thing. 

[candide]

8 hours ago, vinegarbase said:

No, China did not raise their tariffs as a response because China already had high tariffs in place. This all started when Deng Xiao Ping back in the late 70's opened China to the world to do business. The Western world thought that China would follow their lead and become a democratic country with free, open markets. That never happened. Because of incompetent western politicians holding out hope of being able one day to enjoy full market access in China and believing that China would change they looked the other way to China's mercantilism and unbalanced trade agreements.

 

Now it is too late and Donald Trump has known these things for a long time. China has waged the largest espionage campaign in the world against almost every country in the world and saved countless billions in R&D cost's and years in research and development through this theft. Combine this them putting high tariffs on US products (was 25% for cars) while most Chinese products enjoy almost zero tariffs to the US, forcing joint ventures with Chinese companies and forcing technology transfers for US businesses in China, having many restricted and prohibited industries to FDI, and the US running 200-400 billion dollars in trade deficits for years Trump is the only one bold enough do try to do something for once for the best interest of the USA. 

 

Most Americans should know already that we are not in a trade war because the President has already declared it. “We are not in a trade war with China, that war was lost many years ago by the foolish, or incompetent, people who represented the U.S.,” Trump also stated, “When you’re already $500 Billion DOWN, you can’t lose!”

48

This is all to try to rebalance some of these unbalanced trade deals. This is also going to be beneficial because it is going to help decrease the over reliance on China for all things and help break up their global manufacturing and supply monopoly as businesses start to consider other destinations besides China and increase diversity in the global supply chain. This is a very gootod thing. 

China's tariffs rate are on average 3.5%. It is higher than the U.S. but not outrageous. The product mix is probably different so it difficult to compare. The problem is more the non-tariffs barriers (by the way, there is somehow the same problem for exporting to the USA, even if it's probably not at the same level).

I am not saying there are no reasons to put pressure on China, but Trump does it in a clumsy and inefficient way.

[GOLDBUGGY]

18 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

What you fail to mention here is that Goodyear is an American Company which started out in Akron Ohio USA, and not in Dung-Ho-A-Ho China. Even the name Goodyear comes from an American Chemist who developed "Vulcanized Rubber" so that Rubber could be adapted for use in Foot Wear and Car Tyres. So Goodyear would not be relocating from China but rather just going Home.

 

Simplicity is thinkig that Tyre Manuafacturing is a highy-automated industry with all robots and few well paying jobs. Competitive Pricing, partly due by other companies using Cheap Labour, caused Goodyear to close down 3 Manuafacting Plants in America in 1986 with 2 in Canada and 1 in the United States. From 1926 until this time, Goodyear was a growing and expanding company,. Due to restructoring in 1991, 12,000 Goodyear Employees were laid off, and witout work. If given a choice do you think these laid off workers would care if they had to pay 10% more for New Car Tyres, if they could keep there present jobs? 

 

This is just one example of what has been going on in America for years. Apple Computers also had there start in California USA. They are the worlds largest company by Market Capital. Yet they complain today as the US may put Tariffs on there Cheap Computer Parts made in China by Chinese Hands. 

 

Tariffs do equal the game some were all the other players are using loaded dice. This is because they don't use cheap labour and thus Tariffs keep American Products competitive. The American Consumer will no doubt have to pay more for Imported Products. But if they want to keep America prosperious, they need to bite the bullet sometimes. Tariffs are in a way a hidden Tax that gets in the governments pockets eventually anyway.  

 

Maybe Trump is foolish for trying something like this. But at least he has Guts to try!    

 

 

18 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Obviously.

 

 

So in the short term, American consumers would pay more for their "tyres"? And then what, Goodyear suddenly decides to relocate their tyre manufacturing from China to the U.S.A., where their manufacturing costs will be higher? Or will they relocate to a country which has no/lower tariffs? Tyre manufacturing strikes me as a highly-automated industry, with more robots, and very few workers.

 

This grade-school, simplistic view of global trends, and a desire to claw-back low-wage jobs is, well, not very well thought out.

 

[mtls2005]

11 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Tariffs are in a way a hidden Tax that gets in the governments pockets eventually anyway.

 

Hmm, maybe not so "hidden"?

 

Yes, this is about the only upside as tariffs collected will go directly from U.S. consumers into the U.S. Treasury.

 

12 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Maybe Trump is foolish for trying something like this. But at least he has Guts to try!    

 

 

This is an odd argument, to say the least.

 

 

 

[RocketDog]

On 9/12/2018 at 3:51 AM, mtls2005 said:

 

Wave wand. Poof. Magic. All is well.

 

Maybe just list a couple of the "benefits" of these tariffs? 

 

Other than increased revenue for the U.S. Treasury, I'm not seein' a whole lot of benefits.

 

Maybe you can peer into the mind of Trump and share what you see?

You are implying that there is something to see in Trump's mind?

[Nyezhov]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

You are implying that there is something to see in Trump's mind?

Well he is President and his critics aren't so clearly he has more

[bristolboy]

3 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Well he is President and his critics aren't so clearly he has more

I wasn't aware that the electoral college results also doubled as an IQ test.