The good old "losing face" debate

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

I'm. Not American, as you say Americans may be mentioning it in the media, but I hear far less cases of using face as an excuse for bad behaviour. 

 

Not too sure you can attribute loss of face for higher rates of suicide. 

 

Doesn't Japan have one of the highest rates in the world, and their focus on face isn't as high as Thailand for this example

I didn't say anything about suicide.  The instinct to preserve face is something so ingrained in Japanese culture that many Japanese are not aware that it influences their behavior.

 

Face is everything in Japan.  Japan has to be the #1 country concerned with saving face.  Much more than Thailand. 

 

https://talkaboutjapan.blog/save-face-in-japanese-culture/

 

All of the recent sex scandals not being reported by important men all over the world was to save face of their companies.  Hence the Me too movement. 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[hellohello123]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

I didn't say anything about suicide.  The instinct to preserve face is something so ingrained in Japanese culture that many Japanese are not aware that it influences their behavior.

Face is everything in Japan.  Japan has to be the #1 country concerned with saving face.  Much more than Thailand. 

 

All of the recent sex scandals not being reported by important men all over the world was to save face of their companies.  Hence the Me too movement. 

 

Completely disagree with you. 110%

 

Although face may not be unimportant to them

How many politicians, heads, leaders apologise officially on TV. Or even resign for disgracing their name or company at the expense of their own ego

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, hellohello123 said:

Completely disagree with you. 110%

 

Although face may not be unimportant to them

How many politicians, heads, leaders apologise officially on TV. Or even resign for disgracing their name or company at the expense of their own ego

What does apology have to do with it?  They don't tell people the truth because they are trying to save face.  When they get caught they try and reduce the damage to face my the most efficient means possible.  Sometimes an apology sometimes harakiri.  

 

The perfect example Clinton tried to save face by lying and got impeached for it. 

Clinton tried to save face.  Did he ever apologize to the American people for lying? 

[hellohello123]

3 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

What does apology have to do with it?  They don't tell people the truth because they are trying to save face.  When they get caught they try and reduce the damage to face my the most efficient means possible.  Sometimes an apology sometimes harakiri.  

 

The perfect example Clinton tried to save face by lying and got impeached for it. 

Clinton tried to save face.  Did he ever apologize to the American people for lying? 

If face was the number one priority, they would not apologise, 

 

 

 

My example with the bell boy who clearly screwed up and lost face just decided to ignore me 

 

In Japan, if I asked a bell boy to get me a metered taxi (or equivalent situation) they wouldn't get me something a specificallt asked not for. And there is generally a higher English language barrier than Thailand. 

 

And if I got angry with them for making a mistake, they'd apologise, and most likely try to fix it. 

That's losing face by admitting to their mistake. 

 

 

As for. Bill. Clinton. I love the guy but the outright lie he did was ridiculous 

[hellohello123]

Ps I can personally assure you that in school in Japan, admitting to mistakes, apologising for errors is a big thing. 

 

Not sure about schools thaialnd 

[marcusarelus]

13 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

Ps I can personally assure you that in school in Japan, admitting to mistakes, apologising for errors is a big thing. 

 

Not sure about schools thaialnd 

What does apologizing have to do with losing face?  Apologizing is after the fact after the face is lost and you are trying to minimize the damage. 

 

In America a gangster gets shot for causing the boss to lose face.  In Japan he cuts off his finger.  Both a result of causing the boss to lose face. 

[hellohello123]

13 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

What does apologizing have to do with losing face?  Apologizing is after the fact after the face is lost and you are trying to minimize the damage. 

 

In America a gangster gets shot for causing the boss to lose face.  In Japan he cuts off his finger.  Both a result of causing the boss to lose face. 

to me anyone who puts face tas their highest priority,

 

they would never apologise

 

as it makes them look stupid

 

ive worked under, with and above many ego tistical people, who think they are gods gift to the world, and they would never admit their mistake or apologise, as they would lose face

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

to me anyone who puts face tas their highest priority,

 

they would never apologise

 

as it makes them look stupid

 

ive worked under, with and above many ego tistical people, who think they are gods gift to the world, and they would never admit their mistake or apologise, as they would lose face

TOKYO — Even by Japanese standards — where chief executives routinely make public apologies if their company is in crisis — Akio Toyoda’s comments on Friday were surprising. He expressed grief over a fatal crash that led to a recall of 3.8 million cars, Further, Mr. Toyoda said his company was shamefully unprepared for the global economic crisis that has devastated the auto industry, and is a step away from “capitulation to irrelevance or death.” The company, he added, is “grasping for salvation

 

I guess since Japanese executives routinely make public apologies you don't know what you are talking about eh?

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/business/global/03toyota.html

 

Oh BTW the Japanese Emperor apologized for WWII. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

 

 

 

 

[hellohello123]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

TOKYO — Even by Japanese standards — where chief executives routinely make public apologies if their company is in crisis — Akio Toyoda’s comments on Friday were surprising. He expressed grief over a fatal crash that led to a recall of 3.8 million cars, Further, Mr. Toyoda said his company was shamefully unprepared for the global economic crisis that has devastated the auto industry, and is a step away from “capitulation to irrelevance or death.” The company, he added, is “grasping for salvation

 

I guess since Japanese executives routinely make public apologies you don't know what you are talking about eh?

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/business/global/03toyota.html

 

Oh BTW the Japanese Emperor apologized for WWII. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

 

 

 

 

this just shows your ignornace, that you think that japanese are the most face orientated group in asia,

I just proved to you that if face was their number one priority, they wouldnt apoligise,

 

so you post a few examples of people apologising,

 

please....

 

suggest you go back to basics, and come up with a theory/belief, followed by evidence, followed by rebuttal, followed by conclusion

 

so far youve gotten to step 1, congratulations

[marcusarelus]

41 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

this just shows your ignornace, that you think that japanese are the most face orientated group in asia,

I just proved to you that if face was their number one priority, they wouldnt apoligise,

 

so you post a few examples of people apologising,

 

please....

 

suggest you go back to basics, and come up with a theory/belief, followed by evidence, followed by rebuttal, followed by conclusion

 

so far youve gotten to step 1, congratulations

Face has nothing to do with apology as you claimed.  Face is disagreeing with someone in public causing them embarrassment. 

 

People apologize all the time in countries where face is very important like Japan. 

https://www.globalnegotiator.com/international-trade/dictionary/losing-face/

 

For example I am causing you to lose face so you will insult me as opposed to debate me.  It is a human reaction to not being able to deal with being wrong. 

 

Check out the definition of losing face and you will see your error. 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[hellohello123]

12 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Face has nothing to do with apology as you claimed.  Face is disagreeing with someone in public causing them embarrassment. 

 

People apologize all the time in countries where face is very important like Japan. 

https://www.globalnegotiator.com/international-trade/dictionary/losing-face/

 

For example I am causing you to lose face so you will insult me as opposed to debate me.  It is a human reaction to not being able to deal with being wrong. 

 

Check out the definition of losing face and you will see your error. 

 

your link has no mention of apologies,

so that doesnt mean apology has anything or nothing to do with face

 

"suggest you go back to basics, and come up with a theory/belief, followed by evidence, followed by rebuttal, followed by conclusion

 

now youve moved to step 2, congratulatiojns

 

 

edit: if we cant agree that apologising,=loss of face for them, then there is not much point in this debate

Edited September 26, 2018 by hellohello123

[marcusarelus]

1 minute ago, hellohello123 said:

your link has no mention of apologies,

so that doesnt mean apology has anything or nothing to do with face

 

"suggest you go back to basics, and come up with a theory/belief, followed by evidence, followed by rebuttal, followed by conclusion

 

now youve moved to step 2, congratulatiojns

Suggest you stop flaming.  You said losing face meant never apologizing which is not true.  I presented a definition of losing face and there is no mention of apologizing.   If you have any evidence to support your position present it.  I am not required to prove your unsupported argument is wrong. (Russell's teapot) Russell's teapot is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

[seancbk]

7 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Face has nothing to do with apology as you claimed.  Face is disagreeing with someone in public causing them embarrassment. 

 

People apologize all the time in countries where face is very important like Japan. 

https://www.globalnegotiator.com/international-trade/dictionary/losing-face/

 

For example I am causing you to lose face so you will insult me as opposed to debate me.  It is a human reaction to not being able to deal with being wrong. 

 

Check out the definition of losing face and you will see your error. 

 

More complete explanations here  :-    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

Most expats I meet have no real concept of what constitutes 'losing face'.   Yet most of them go about Bangkok losing it almost constantly.

[hellohello123]

3 minutes ago, seancbk said:

More complete explanations here  :-    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

Most expats I meet have no real concept of what constitutes 'losing face'.   Yet most of them go about Bangkok losing it almost constantly.

 

2 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

 

Face is everything in Japan.  Japan has to be the #1 country concerned with saving face.  Much more than Thailand. 

 

 

thought japanese were supposed to have the highest amount of face in the world or at least asia,??

 

 

yet the wiki link starts off with china,

and under countries,

arabic, persian, korean, thai, english

 

but no japan...

 

looks like someone doesnt know the definition

[marcusarelus]

17 minutes ago, seancbk said:

More complete explanations here  :-    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

Most expats I meet have no real concept of what constitutes 'losing face'.   Yet most of them go about Bangkok losing it almost constantly.

It is a good definition.  Why don't you provide us with an example of what constitutes an expat constantly losing face. 

 

I see them acting with no common sense or causing Thai people to lose face but I don't see expats constantly losing face. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

 

 

thought japanese were supposed to have the highest amount of face in the world or at least asia,??

 

 

yet the wiki link starts off with china,

and under countries,

arabic, persian, korean, thai, english

 

but no japan...

 

looks like someone doesnt know the definition

Japan is mentioned 13 times in the Wiki article.  You said people who were concerned with face would not apologize which is an untrue statement and the definition above supports that. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[hellohello123]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Japan is mentioned 13 times in the Wiki article.  You said people who were concerned with face would note apologize which is an untrue statement and the definition above supports that. 

would have thought the country with biggest emphasis on face would have its own section???

 

dont see any reference to apoligies in the article, how does something thats not even referred to be classifed as a untrue statement???

 

step 3

[seancbk]

2 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

It is a good definition.  Why don't you provide us with an example of what constitutes constantly losing face. 

Anything that makes you look foolish, or makes you appear to be of a lower class.   


 

[marcusarelus]

Just now, hellohello123 said:

would have thought the country with biggest emphasis on face would have its own section???

 

dont see any reference to apoligies in the article, how does something thats not even referred to be classifed as a untrue statement???

 

step 3

You have to present something supporting your view that not apologizing is critical to not losing face as it is in no definition of the concept.  That is Russell's teapot.  Many definitions of losing face have been presented none of which mentions your false contention that apologizing is critical to not losing face.  The burden of proof is on you. 

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Anything that makes you look foolish, or makes you appear to be of a lower class.  

 

9 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Anything that makes you look foolish, or makes you appear to be of a lower class.  

 

Those words do not appear in your long definition of losing face.  If I do something that an Issan farmer thinks is foolish that is hardly me losing face.   I don't think you have a solid grasp of what losing face is.  That's why I asked for an example of expats constantly losing face.  I don't see it.  They may talk too loud or point with their feet or not take a shower or wear a shirt or kiss a bar girl in public  but that's not losing face.  Losing face is being cowed by a taxi driver or chased down the street by a drunk ladyboy but I don't see that happening constantly all day long.  Most expats go about business in a quiet way bothering no one. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcusarelus

[hellohello123]

18 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Japan is mentioned 13 times in the Wiki article.  You said people who were concerned with face would not apologize which is an untrue statement

please provide evidence of your statement

[marcusarelus]

2 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

please provide evidence of your statement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

 

Japan is mentioned 13 times in the above article and apology is not mentioned once.

 

It is incumbent on you to show where apology is part of losing face.  Not me to not show apology is part of losing face.  I can't prove evidence of absence. 

[seancbk]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

6 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

8 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Anything that makes you look foolish, or makes you appear to be of a lower class.  

 

Those words do not appear in your long definition of losing face.  If I do something that an Issan farmer thinks is foolish that is hardly me losing face.   I don't think you have a solid grasp of what losing face is.  That's why I asked for an example of expats constantly losing face.  I don't see it.  They may talk too loud or point with their feet or not take a shower or wear a shirt or kiss a bar girl in public  but that's not losing face. 

It seems my original link went to the wrong place, although the smarter ones amongst you may have noticed. 

Here is a fixed link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)


My understanding of 'Face' comes from living in Hong Kong for 35 years (from the age of 6) and being in Asia for 45 years. 

In the Chinese definition of Face there are many words that express that 'face' means prestige, position, class, dignity etc, conversely 'losing face' is anything where your appearance of prestige, position, class, dignity etc is reduced.

 

[hellohello123]

26 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

 You said people who were concerned with face would not apologize which is an untrue statement

 

4 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I can't prove evidence of absence. 

Nuff said

[marcusarelus]

I caused a shop manager to lose face.  I wanted a product replaced and he refused to do it.  He called his boss in Bangkok (big company lots of staff people in attendance) and his boss agreed with him and told him not to replace the product.  We were on a conference call in front of his entire staff. 

 

I told him I would be back in a week and he would replace the product and it would be easier if he just gave it to me then and save us both a lot of headaches. 

 

I could have done it differently.  Quieter and not called his boss on a conference call and I could have not insisted that the company ship it to that branch for me to pick up. 

 

I called the President of the company in Singapore and he sent the product and I picked it up from the manager a week later at the branch store.  He lost face in front of his entire staff as did his boss in Bangkok.

 

If they ever see me at night in a dark alley I'll have a problem. 

 

That is losing face and that is me gaining face. 

[siamcrut]

I caused a shop manager to lose face.  I wanted a product replaced and he refused to do it.  He called his boss in Bangkok (big company lots of staff people in attendance) and his boss agreed with him and told him not to replace the product.  We were on a conference call in front of his entire staff. 
 
I told him I would be back in a week and he would replace the product and it would be easier if he just gave it to me then and save us both a lot of headaches. 
 
I could have done it differently.  Quieter and not called his boss on a conference call and I could have not insisted that the company ship it to that branch for me to pick up. 
 
I called the President of the company in Singapore and he sent the product and I picked it up from the manager a week later at the branch store.  He lost face in front of his entire staff as did his boss in Bangkok.
 
If they ever see me at night in a dark alley I'll have a problem. 
 
That is losing face and that is me gaining face. 

555
Brilliant, like your story.
Hope the product was worth it.
Have done something similar at homepro with the store manager.
Still alive.

[Farangwithaplan]

On 9/20/2018 at 1:52 PM, simoh1490 said:

....but even after a couple of cabs he still didn't get it, in fact, even now he may still not!

'Saving face' is the term used in Thai by english speakers. I was taught at a young age that "you attract more bees with honey, than salt". I see similarities in the term and the saying.

 

If the OP wasn't getting the result, a change of tact may have gleaned better results.

 

The social norm of not "calling someone out" is ingrained in Thai culture. It is offensive as walking up to someone in your home country and getting in their face and saying "Your wife is a town bike and daughter is not much better" or words to that effect. To a standard westerner, the comment I just say would be highly offensive. Just like losing one's cool or pointing out people's perceived liabilities or issues in a public forum or even one on one in Thailand.

 

I've been guilty of it with a senior staff member on a couple of occasions and been guilty of it with the occasional person in the community. But once they go silent, you have lost. It takes a lot to get them back. These days I usually manage to check myself and offer them their version of honey and I am rarely disappointed.

 

 

[hellohello123]

7 minutes ago, Farangwithaplan said:

'Saving face' is the term used in Thai by english speakers. I was taught at a young age that "you attract more bees with honey, than salt". I see similarities in the term and the saying.

 

If the OP wasn't getting the result, a change of tact may have gleaned better results.

 

The social norm of not "calling someone out" is ingrained in Thai culture. It is offensive as walking up to someone in your home country and getting in their face and saying "Your wife is a town bike and daughter is not much better" or words to that effect. To a standard westerner, the comment I just say would be highly offensive. Just like losing one's cool or pointing out people's perceived liabilities or issues in a public forum or even one on one in Thailand.

 

I've been guilty of it with a senior staff member on a couple of occasions and been guilty of it with the occasional person in the community. But once they go silent, you have lost. It takes a lot to get them back. These days I usually manage to check myself and offer them their version of honey and I am rarely disappointed.

 

 

im not being argumentative for the sake of it, but lets get some perpsective,

 

as you say, "once they go silent, you have lost"

 

if they proceed not to do their job or their role/responsibility and screw up, will their boss say "thats ok, you lost face, its ok that you didnt do what you were supposed to, here is a promotion" or "thats ok you lost face, I forgive you for leaving the safe unlocked and now we got robbed overnight "

 

I work in customer service, and sometimes through no fault of my own or my fault, I look very stupid, but I deal with it and do what im supposed to do,

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

I caused a shop manager to lose face.  I wanted a product replaced and he refused to do it.  He called his boss in Bangkok (big company lots of staff people in attendance) and his boss agreed with him and told him not to replace the product.  We were on a conference call in front of his entire staff. 

 

I told him I would be back in a week and he would replace the product and it would be easier if he just gave it to me then and save us both a lot of headaches. 

 

I could have done it differently.  Quieter and not called his boss on a conference call and I could have not insisted that the company ship it to that branch for me to pick up. 

 

I called the President of the company in Singapore and he sent the product and I picked it up from the manager a week later at the branch store.  He lost face in front of his entire staff as did his boss in Bangkok.

 

If they ever see me at night in a dark alley I'll have a problem. 

 

That is losing face and that is me gaining face. 

 

 

Good example, although why did you feel the need to cause them so much loss of face?   

[Ron19]

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