The good old "losing face" debate

[CharlieH]

Thai bash comment removed.

[upu2]

I have used the "Face" issue to advantage, not here in Thailand but with Chinese in Pakistan. Using it got him to do what I had repeatedly asked for.

[hellohello123]

6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Loosing face is nothing more than a simple euphemism for fragile ego...

 

Of course, Loosing face is also common in the West, however, in a society where non-confrontationalism is key to successfully navigating your day, egos become massaged. In a society where fragile egos are so frequently massaged the concept of loosing face is more prevalent.

 

Thailand and many Asian cultures also do tend to massage the fragile egos more so than in Western countries, additionally, since childhood the male ego is massaged more-so than the female and hence the birth of the 'little prince syndrome', the spoilt young boy who can do no wrong.

 

Asians are generally more tolerant than Westerners where folk are more inclined to display a lack of tolerance for 'the silly stuff' thus the 'loss of face' and behavior associated with avoiding it goes unchecked and hence, when face is lost the owner of said fragile ego lacks the emotional tools to handle the situation, sometimes quite spectacularly.... 

id actually say asians are far less tolerant than westerners ,

obviously there are idiots in every society but I feel that asians do far more stupid, illogical and unproductive behaviour based on face.

 

 

when I was growing up, the first reference of face I heard was in a hong kong film, and the reference to losing face came up a lot, at that point I assumed it meant "loss of respect/image/reputation"

which fair enough, as any human being ,especially male, losing repsect or your reputation going down, really sux, and it hurts,

 

putting aside male ego for a second,

 

for example, if your superior points out a mistake that you made, in front of others and it made you look stupid, as long as it wasnt done malciously or over the top,  yes it hurts, yes it makes you look stupid, but its your mistake! so just because you lose face you are allowed to shutdown, have a cry, sulk, beat up your superior, or even stab him in the head?!?!?

yes, the boss could have been a bit more considerate and done it in private,

 

is that what they teach in schools?

hey little johnny, if the teacher asks you the answer to the maths problem on the board and you get it wrong, and teacher says wrong, its ok for you to behave like an idiot because you lose face?

[hellohello123]

3 hours ago, VBF said:

Reading this and other threads on "Face", I can't help thinking that in the West, whilst many people don't like to be made to look stupid (obviously) if one is discreet, one can point out their mistakes in a constructive way without a problem.

 

An example being an employee who does something seriously wrong. The boss can either yell and berate him/her publicly and make them look stupid (lose face), OR can take them to one side and explain the error of their ways. The latter approach will often (not always!) result in increased respect all round.

 

Now in Thailand, I've found that many Thai people regard even a private "telling off" as a loss of face.

I had a TGF who made some odd decisions with things like shopping and arranging trips - I would always tell her quietly and privately that "I think you're wrong, because......."

It took ages before she understood that she could respond and we could discuss the matter without either of us losing face.

 

A hotel receptionist made a big error on my bill - when i pointed it out to her with just the 2 of us present, she took offence - eventually I had to involve a more senior person to get it resolved - I was completely right but the receptionist just wouldn't or couldn't see it. She wouldn't talk to me after that....loss of face, I presume.

 

So is it cultural, the result of the Thai education system....or....or.....??

if the receptionist the senior person had the same mentality, they would allow and justify the receptionists behaviour ,and would probably go as far as saying "its your fault for making her lose face, because you pointed it out"

 

I work in a customer service industry, and often I have to deal with irrate and rude customers,

sometimes its no ones fault, sometimes its their fault, sometimes its our fault,

 

regardless, I wouldnt be doing my job remotely competently  if I started ignoring customers because it hurt my feelings,

sometimes I want to grab a baseball bat and take a swing at them, but I dont

 

so in the above example, if the roles were reversed, I will bet my life that the receptionist (who is now the customer with a wrong bill) would simply say "oh ok, I made you lose face because you overcharged me, its my fault, ill just pay the overcharged bill and we can all be happy'

 

I dont think so!

[VBF]

4 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

if the receptionist the senior person had the same mentality, they would allow and justify the receptionists behaviour ,and would probably go as far as saying "its your fault for making her lose face, because you pointed it out"

 

I work in a customer service industry, and often I have to deal with irrate and rude customers,

sometimes its no ones fault, sometimes its their fault, sometimes its our fault,

 

regardless, I wouldnt be doing my job remotely competently  if I started ignoring customers because it hurt my feelings,

sometimes I want to grab a baseball bat and take a swing at them, but I dont

 

so in the above example, if the roles were reversed, I will bet my life that the receptionist (who is now the customer with a wrong bill) would simply say "oh ok, I made you lose face because you overcharged me, its my fault, ill just pay the overcharged bill and we can all be happy'

 

I dont think so!

I think we're agreeing with each other?

Oh, btw, at no time did I yell or become rude....just saying! 

[hellohello123]

6 hours ago, seancbk said:

HelloHello123:  Earlier this year I was staying in a 5star hotel in bkk, I needed a metered taxi to the airport. I asked the bell boy to get me one with a meter specifically. One comes eventually and started the excuses. I got out and explained the situation to the bell boy who understood. And ordered me another one, he even spoke to the driver, and once I got in, same excuses. 

 

I got very angry with him as it had already been 15 mins and confronted him, He eventually while standing in front of me just started talking to his colleague while ignoring me. 

--- end quote -- 

You got very angry with him?    What for?   Is it his fault taxis don't want to use their meter, or that there weren't loads of available taxis?

I would have turned my back on you as well for being rude.


 

yeah I got angry with him ,because I asked him for something specific,  and explained why, and he said, yeah no problem,

what does how much he gets paid have anything to do with it

this is a 5 start hotel ,not some cheap hostel, I dont expect staff to lead me to dodgy illegal practices (thats what I pay a premium price for the service and room)

if he knew that there were no metered taxis, then why would he say no problems??? oh, so he doesnt lose face!! so we're back to square one with the face debate,

 

had he said, "oh, all the taxis around here dont do meter" i would have accepted it and made different choices?

 

in fact the 3rd taxi, did meter for us without any hesitation, and off we went

 

oh another loss of face for them!

 

so lets say this bell boy has another job at a resturant, and I go in and order a special of the day, which he said was great,  so I order it, he sends the order to the kitchen

and then when the meals come, my special is missing because it had sold out and he knew that when he ordered it , but because he didnt want to lose face, didnt tell me,

 

in my job, and my industry, we would get absolutely crucified if we did this, sure sometimes mistakes happen and the above wil happen, but we will do our best to recitify the situation, regardless of how much its made us look stupid

Edited September 20, 2018 by hellohello123

[hellohello123]

7 minutes ago, VBF said:

I think we're agreeing with each other?

Oh, btw, at no time did I yell or become rude....just saying! 

yes, we are agreeing with eachother... i think  ??

 

if a customer gets rude or starts getting loud, either theyre just rude/obnoxious people, or they are really justifiably pissed off,

 

when I was young I was working at a super lavish function centre, I was carrying champagnes, and tipped one down the back of a lady with a one piece dress with half her back exposed,

 

she went absolutely ballsitc at me, and yes she probably did go over board, but she was dressed a million dollars and I tipped an entire glass down her back which im sure would have ruined her day,

 

I told my boss, and we both profusely apologised, and offered to pay for dry cleaning, and gave her freebies to try and rectify it

 

at no time, did myself or my boss simply ignore her or look elsewhere because I had lost face in front of lot of people

[Cadbury]

3 hours ago, Lucky mike said:

Confrontation is to be avoided at all costs it seems !

Yes, you could get your head blown off with a .45 or shotgun or decapitated with a machete because you happened to look askance at some druggy. Cut and run is my advice.

[SteveInBKKandMAUI]

My Mother (USA) said to me often:

 

"There Is Nothing Worse In This World Than A Woman Felt Scorned".

 

I Don't Think It's Much Different Throughout The World.  Go Through A USA Divorce And You'll Understand.  I Am Sure It's The Same Everywhere.    The Woman Will Go Out-Of-Her-Way To Make The Man Look Badly.  She Will Say And Do Anything .... To Her Family & The Kids, To Make It look Like It's Not Her Fault.

 

It's The Same As "Losing Face".

 

I Believe.

[hellohello123]

5 hours ago, SteveInBKKandMAUI said:

My Mother (USA) said to me often:

 

"There Is Nothing Worse In This World Than A Woman Felt Scorned".

 

I Don't Think It's Much Different Throughout The World.  Go Through A USA Divorce And You'll Understand.  I Am Sure It's The Same Everywhere.    The Woman Will Go Out-Of-Her-Way To Make The Man Look Badly.  She Will Say And Do Anything .... To Her Family & The Kids, To Make It look Like It's Not Her Fault.

 

It's The Same As "Losing Face".

 

I Believe.

I know I'm going to get a lot of disagreement, but I personally believe it's far less about face in these situations but it's about the money. 

Money brings out the worst in people especially women. 

 

I believe divorce lawyers  would probably be unemployed if money was not involved in a divorce 

 

[Sydebolle]

You can make this "face" thing working your way - never forget that.

I took over the cleaning-up of a (luxury watch importing/selling) company which had one particular, heavily overpaid, supervisor in a sales outlet which performed very poorly. She just sat through countless salary increases over the years, without any motivation and no performance whatsoever; sacking her though would have cost the company a fortune.

She got pregnant and went into six months paid maternity leave (we were that generous). During this time I closed that particular sales outlet. Upon her return I told her that there is no alternative supervisory position for the time being but I would keep her at the office for some administrative work. Her employment conditions would remain untouched as far as salary and fringe benefits were concerned and reviewed, if and when a once supervisory opening would become available.

She, not completely stupid either, knew that she was hanged out to dry, resigned the same day and left the company telling everybody at the office that she is heading for some much better employer which would appreciate her wealth of experience and knowledge.

Later on it trickled through, that she accepted a job at half the salary working as a simple product consultant again on a daily-wage basis - but the face was saved and I got rid of a potentially tedious and expensive headache. 

[seancbk]

13 hours ago, hellohello123 said:

yeah I got angry with him ,because I asked him for something specific,  and explained why, and he said, yeah no problem,

what does how much he gets paid have anything to do with it

this is a 5 start hotel ,not some cheap hostel, I dont expect staff to lead me to dodgy illegal practices (thats what I pay a premium price for the service and room)

if he knew that there were no metered taxis, then why would he say no problems??? oh, so he doesnt lose face!! so we're back to square one with the face debate,

 

had he said, "oh, all the taxis around here dont do meter" i would have accepted it and made different choices?

 

in fact the 3rd taxi, did meter for us without any hesitation, and off we went

 

oh another loss of face for them!

 

If a taxi that doesn't want to use it's meter drives upto the 5 star hotel, do you think that is the fault of the bell boy?

How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   

You must have very high blood pressure getting worked up about something so trivial as having to try 3 cabs before one accepts the fare on it's meter.

[marcusarelus]

10 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

If a taxi that doesn't want to use it's meter drives upto the 5 star hotel, do you think that is the fault of the bell boy?

How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   

You must have very high blood pressure getting worked up about something so trivial as having to try 3 cabs before one accepts the fare on it's meter.

5 star hotel the concierge will know. 

[mauGR1]

26 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

If a taxi that doesn't want to use it's meter drives upto the 5 star hotel, do you think that is the fault of the bell boy?

How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   

You must have very high blood pressure getting worked up about something so trivial as having to try 3 cabs before one accepts the fare on it's meter.

Well, maybe he's not used to travel in Thailand and Asia as you or me.

After a few years travelling around Thailand, in this case, you become street-smart, and you learn not to take a 'yes' as a 'yes' , but more likely as a 'maybe'.

Another thing i learned, every time i enter a taxi, is to be sure that the driver knows exactly where i want to go, because if he takes me to the wrong place, it's my fault.

Mysteries of Thailand

[rumak]

On 9/20/2018 at 6:58 AM, mauGR1 said:

I have to admit, that till a few years ago, i was not giving a lot of importance to the 'face thing'.

Recently i realised instead that i'm better be aware of it every moment.

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

I would be curious to hear from people living in neighbouring countries, like Cambodia or Vietnam, or Myanmar, if the people there give the same importance to 'face' as they do in Thailand.

I really think you should add Thaivisa forum members to that list.    fortunately they only have their keyboards, no

sticks and stones or the results might get bloody as well.

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

 

If a taxi that doesn't want to use it's meter drives upto the 5 star hotel, do you think that is the fault of the bell boy?

How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   

You must have very high blood pressure getting worked up about something so trivial as having to try 3 cabs before one accepts the fare on it's meter.

5 star hotel the concierge will know. 

Nonsense.  First of all it was the bell-boy not the concierge and secondly if you think they know what every taxi is going to do then you expect too much, unless every single taxi that comes to that hotel always refuses the meter.

My point however is not whether the hotel staff know what the taxis are going to do, it's that the OP needs to relax a bit more.  In his story the person who 'lost face' was himself, by getting worked up about taxis refusing to use their meter.  

[seancbk]

On 9/20/2018 at 6:58 AM, mauGR1 said:

I have to admit, that till a few years ago, i was not giving a lot of importance to the 'face thing'.

Recently i realised instead that i'm better be aware of it every moment.

While, of course, the 'losing face' issue exists in every culture, it seems to me that in Thailand 'face' is overrated.

I would be curious to hear from people living in neighbouring countries, like Cambodia or Vietnam, or Myanmar, if the people there give the same importance to 'face' as they do in Thailand.

I grew up in Hong Kong, lived there 35 years and have lived in Thailand 10 years,  so grew up with the concept of face.   

To me face is about many things, the simplest is not making someone look foolish especially in front of other people.   That applies when you and the other person are the same age and social level.   

A more serious loss of face would be when the other person is older or your superior, so for example you would never question instructions or ideas put forward by your boss, even if you thought he was wrong.  Doing so would make him lose face you would result in your career hitting a roadblock.

Losing your temper is a loss of face for you, as it makes people around you embarrassed for your lack of self control.

There are certain losses of face that don't bother me and others that I take very seriously.  It depends on the situation.

The nuances of face are complex, but not limited to Asian countries.  In the West most people subconsciously try to avoid making other people look stupid, or doing things that make themselves look stupid.




 

Edited September 21, 2018 by seancbk
added content

[marcusarelus]

24 minutes ago, seancbk said:

Nonsense.  First of all it was the bell-boy not the concierge and secondly if you think they know what every taxi is going to do then you expect too much, unless every single taxi that comes to that hotel always refuses the meter.

My point however is not whether the hotel staff know what the taxis are going to do, it's that the OP needs to relax a bit more.  In his story the person who 'lost face' was himself, by getting worked up about taxis refusing to use their meter.  

Me nonsense?  Pshaw.  Stay at a 5 star hotel and ask the concierge to get you a taxi who uses meter.  Your wish will be there command. The Okura Prestige Bangkok.  Call the concierge up and find out.  Head bell boy too. 

 

My point is you should expect that kind of service for that kind of money and you pay those rates so you can relax not accommodate yourself to a cab driver.  If I wanted to take direction from a taxi driver I'd stay at the Nana hotel. 

 

I got my information from watching, "Crazy Rich Asians."

. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by marcusarelus

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, seancbk said:

I grew up in Hong Kong, lived there 35 years and so grew up with the concept of face.   To me face is about many things, the simplest is not making someone look foolish especially in front of other people.   That applies when you and the other person are the same age and social level.   

A more serious loss of face would be when the other person is older or your superior, so for example you would never question instructions or ideas put forward by your boss, even if you thought he was wrong.  Doing so would make him lose face you would result in your career hitting a roadblock.

Losing your temper is a loss of face for you, as it makes people around you embarrassed for your lack of self control.

There are certain losses of face that don't bother me and others that I take very seriously.  It depends on the situation.

The nuances of face are complex, but not limited to Asian countries.  In the West most people subconsciously try to avoid making other people look stupid, or doing things that make themselves look stupid.




 

Good post.

As you say, the nuances of face are complex, and there are probably lots of grey areas.

I guess that living in Asia makes one, slowly but steadily, more and more 'face' conscious.

[seancbk]

Just now, marcusarelus said:

Me nonsense?  Pshaw.  Stay at a 5 star hotel and ask the concierge to get you a taxi who uses meter.  Your wish will be there command. The Okura Prestige Bangkok.  Call the concierge up and find out.  Head bell boy too. 

 

My point is you should expect that kind of service for that kind of money and you pay those rates so you can relax not accommodate yourself to a cab driver.  If I wanted to take direction from a taxi driver I'd stay at the Nana hotel. 

 

Actually I agree with you that the concierge at a 5 star hotel such as the Okura Prestige would not allow a taxi to not use it's meter for one of their customers.   It's more likely that the OP wasn't at a 5 star hotel. 



 

[hellohello123]

11 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Me nonsense?  Pshaw.  Stay at a 5 star hotel and ask the concierge to get you a taxi who uses meter.  Your wish will be there command. The Okura Prestige Bangkok.  Call the concierge up and find out.  Head bell boy too. 

 

My point is you should expect that kind of service for that kind of money and you pay those rates so you can relax not accommodate yourself to a cab driver.  If I wanted to take direction from a taxi driver I'd stay at the Nana hotel. 

 

I got my information from watching, "Crazy Rich Asians."

. 

spot on, couldnt have said it much better,

 

its a 5 star hotel, 

regardless of how much they get paid, they have a job to do, and reptutation to uphold,

 

I do not expect the 5 star bell boy to put me into a possibly dangerous and illegal practiced taxi, of which I have specificaly requested not to do, where the request was very reasonable

 

you pay a premium price for a reason 

 

 

[hellohello123]

13 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

Actually I agree with you that the concierge at a 5 star hotel such as the Okura Prestige would not allow a taxi to not use it's meter for one of their customers.   It's more likely that the OP wasn't at a 5 star hotel. 



 

suggest you read the OP, it clearly says 5 star

 

also, the bell boy should know (even I do ) that non metered accepting taxis are everywhere,

 

face or loss of face or not, 

 

so if you went to a fine dining restaurant, and said , peanuts make me sick, can I have my main dish without peanuts

 

"oh no problems sir"

 

and then the dish arrives with peanuts, and you get sick , are you simply going to say

"oh thats ok, he gets paid peanuts, and I need to not get so angry, and its ok, he was just avoiding losing face"

 

yeah right

[hellohello123]

2 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

If a taxi that doesn't want to use it's meter drives upto the 5 star hotel, do you think that is the fault of the bell boy?

How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   

You must have very high blood pressure getting worked up about something so trivial as having to try 3 cabs before one accepts the fare on it's meter.

no the behaviour of the taxi is not the bell boys fault,

 

however I asked him specifically for a metered taxi, and he said yes, he can speak thai, all he has to do is ask the driver,

also its a 5 star hotel, they have a system or way to get these metered taxis, its hotel-customer relations 101

 

"How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   "

I have seriously have absolutely no idea, I mean I expect to go to a restaurant and ask whats your popular dish, and for the staff to have no idea what im talking about!

geez, a bell boy not knowing about taxis, 

I must come from a different planet

[lkv]

23 minutes ago, hellohello123 said:

no the behaviour of the taxi is not the bell boys fault,

 

however I asked him specifically for a metered taxi, and he said yes, he can speak thai, all he has to do is ask the driver,

also its a 5 star hotel, they have a system or way to get these metered taxis, its hotel-customer relations 101

 

"How would he know that "all taxis around here don't do meter"?   "

I have seriously have absolutely no idea, I mean I expect to go to a restaurant and ask whats your popular dish, and for the staff to have no idea what im talking about!

geez, a bell boy not knowing about taxis, 

I must come from a different planet

Yeah, all the bellboy had to do is ask meter/no meter until he found the 3rd taxi himself.

 

I'd expect that from a 5 star(or less) hotel, to hire bellboys intelligent enough to do so. If they don't, it's the hotel's fault in recruiting or training.

Edited September 21, 2018 by lkv

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Yeah all the bellboy had to do is ask meter/no meter until he found the 3rd taxi himself.

 

I'd expect that from a 5 star hotel, to hire bellboys intelligent enough to do so. If they don't, it's the hotel's fault in recruiting.

But you should not tell them, otherwise they lose face

[lkv]

8 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

But you should not tell them, otherwise they lose face

Typically Thai, what else can I say. In line with the other current thread here about Thai Airways losing billions because of poor management.

[hellohello123]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

But you should not tell them, otherwise they lose face

geez, im so thanful  Idont havea life threatening allergy or medical problem ,

 

imagine being allergic to peanuts and geting told that the dish has no peanuts because the guy didnt want to lose face,

 

no good if Im going in to anaphenalpic shock on the floor....

[5633572526]

In a more affluent country you learn from your mistakes and move forward. In a less affluent (read educated) country you blame others for your mistakes inflict harm on them and stay right where you are in life using “saving face” as an excuse. 

In my country (USA) you never hear “saving face” in the daily news. Here you hear it constantly. 

[marcusarelus]

38 minutes ago, 5633572526 said:

In a more affluent country you learn from your mistakes and move forward. In a less affluent (read educated) country you blame others for your mistakes inflict harm on them and stay right where you are in life using “saving face” as an excuse. 

In my country (USA) you never hear “saving face” in the daily news. Here you hear it constantly. 

Anti depressant pill usage in the USA 130 per 1000 people.  Australia 96 per 1000.  Thailand 3 per 1000. 

http://time.com/4900248/antidepressants-depression-more-common/

 

Western countries save face by medicating and not facing the problems. 

 

In America saving face is, "don't rock the boat, don't make waves."  And the reason so many people have been recently fired and the Me too movement.  The Catholic church trying to save face by ignoring the Priest Abuse crisis.  The FBI trying to save face by ignoring J Edgar wore dresses.  America as a whole is trying to save face by saying, "not my President."

 

The whole Democratic party is trying to save face after picking Hillary to run.  Read, "The Grim Politics of Saving Face."

Deny. Deflect. Double down. These have become the watchwords of the modern politician who is trying to save face after so many wrong decisions. 

 

You hear saving face every other word on America's news networks.  The Pope is trying to save face.  The Brexiteers are trying to save face, Bill Cosby is trying to save face.  The Supreme court nominee is trying to save face after 3 women accuse him or sex crimes.  

 

I came to Thailand to avoid all the Western idiots trying to save face.  It's better here.  Everybody is honest about saving face.  In the West they think they have you fooled and in your case they succeeded. 

 

 

[hellohello123]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Anti depressant pill usage in the USA 130 per 1000 people.  Australia 96 per 1000.  Thailand 3 per 1000. 

http://time.com/4900248/antidepressants-depression-more-common/

 

Western countries save face by medicating and not facing the problems. 

 

In America saving face is, "don't rock the boat, don't make waves."  And the reason so many people have been recently fired and the Me too movement.  The Catholic church trying to save face by ignoring the Priest Abuse crisis.  The FBI trying to save face by ignoring J Edgar wore dresses.  America as a whole is trying to save face by saying, "not my President."

 

The whole Democratic party is trying to save face after picking Hillary to run.  Read, "The Grim Politics of Saving Face."

Deny. Deflect. Double down. These have become the watchwords of the modern politician who is trying to save face after so many wrong decisions. 

 

You hear saving face every other word on America's news networks.  The Pope is trying to save face.  The Brexiteers are trying to save face, Bill Cosby is trying to save face.  The Supreme court nominee is trying to save face after 3 women accuse him or sex crimes.  

 

I came to Thailand to avoid all the Western idiots trying to save face.  It's better here.  Everybody is honest about saving face.  In the West they think they have you fooled and in your case they succeeded. 

 

 

I'm. Not American, as you say Americans may be mentioning it in the media, but I hear far less cases of using face as an excuse for bad behaviour. 

 

Not too sure you can attribute loss of face for higher rates of suicide. 

 

Doesn't Japan have one of the highest rates in the world, and their focus on face isn't as high as Thailand for this example