THAI plans swift upgrade of fleet to reverse losses

[bowerboy]

7 hours ago, Dibbler said:

Nope its correct, I qualified with 40K Asiana and Star Alliance airlines in 14 months, and got 2 years and 10 months of Star Alliance Gold status

This is definitely incorrect about Thai Airways....it is a 2 year gold membership based on 50k points in one year or 80k over 2 years.

 

Thai Frequent Flyer program is the ONLY reason I fly Thai at all. They are also the easiest to redeem points on. I fly a lot for work and would never dream of paying for a ticket from Thai out of my own money but I do insist on work paying for Thai.

 

Case in point: I am in Frankfurt right now having flown here First Class on Thai Airways A380 on points. I got exactly the flight I wanted first time. Probably explains why they are going broke....I would never pay for. Ticket on Thai and only ever fly them Business or First using my points.

 

For the record, even their First Class is extremely poor (even on the A380) when compared to the likes of ANA, Singapore or Lufthansa. Mostly just the usual completely disinterested facade of “service”.

[SOTIRIOS]

...gotta wonder...

 

...where has all the money gone these past 2 decades...???

 

...gas prices....don't make me puke...

 

...they have been milking ...(bleeding)... this cow ...to a perverse degree...

 

...all these years...and nobody has said 'boo'...

 

...this organization.... and its 'sister'...AOT.....

 

...thousands of horror stories...that never made the press...

 

...oh well....

[Dibbler]

3 hours ago, bowerboy said:

This is definitely incorrect about Thai Airways....it is a 2 year gold membership based on 50k points in one year or 80k over 2 years.

 

Thai Frequent Flyer program is the ONLY reason I fly Thai at all. They are also the easiest to redeem points on. I fly a lot for work and would never dream of paying for a ticket from Thai out of my own money but I do insist on work paying for Thai.

If those are the accumulation rates for Royal Orchid Plus then they are expensive compared with Asiana Club which gives you at least 2 years Gold for just 40K accumulated over 2 years.  Only Aegean Airways gives a faster track to Star Alliance Gold. The rates for upgrade and air awards jumped considerably a few years ago and ROP miles maybe easy to cash in but you need lots of them to upgrade.  I now credit all my THAI miles to Asiana or Singapore Krisflyer both of which have a superior product and make it easier to stay Gold once there.

[trainman34014]

Lost count of the times this sort of Bullshit comes out of 'New Management'.   Fact is they have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to run an airline properly but you can't expect much else when every 'New Management Team' are Political placements favoured by whichever Government happens to be in power at the time.   Impossible to run any airline properly without people at the top with many years of Aviation experience at every level.

[JAG]

7 minutes ago, trainman34014 said:

Lost count of the times this sort of Bullshit comes out of 'New Management'.   Fact is they have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to run an airline properly but you can't expect much else when every 'New Management Team' are Political placements favoured by whichever Government happens to be in power at the time.   Impossible to run any airline properly without people at the top with many years of Aviation experience at every level.

Oh I think you are being a bit hard, many of the Thai International top brass are ex air force aren't they? Yet they still manage to fly on sports afternoons, at weekends and even I'm told when it's raining!

Edited September 21, 2018 by JAG

[zzaa09]

11 minutes ago, trainman34014 said:

Lost count of the times this sort of Bullshit comes out of 'New Management'.   Fact is they have absolutely no idea whatsoever how to run an airline properly but you can't expect much else when every 'New Management Team' are Political placements favoured by whichever Government happens to be in power at the time.   Impossible to run any airline properly without people at the top with many years of Aviation experience at every level.

Keeping in mind as to the principle ownership of Thai Airways. 

Might explain everything. 

[bowerboy]

5 hours ago, Dibbler said:

If those are the accumulation rates for Royal Orchid Plus then they are expensive compared with Asiana Club which gives you at least 2 years Gold for just 40K accumulated over 2 years.  Only Aegean Airways gives a faster track to Star Alliance Gold. The rates for upgrade and air awards jumped considerably a few years ago and ROP miles maybe easy to cash in but you need lots of them to upgrade.  I now credit all my THAI miles to Asiana or Singapore Krisflyer both of which have a superior product and make it easier to stay Gold once there.

Exactly which Asians Tier are you talking about? Their Gold card is equivalent to Thai Bronze according to their website. Diamond plus is equivalent to Thai Gold. Please can you confirm (out of genuine interest).

[hawksway]

The Thai Fleet is generally good and can make money. The only asset not making much of a contribution is the Dreamliner whose Rolls Royce Tent 1000 engines are with reliability problems, soon to be to be corrected. Thai has serious leadership problems which are not helped by Government interference. The Airline has to match capacity to demand. Pricing is not the problem. BA makes its profits despite high pricing and pays the same prices for fuel and much more than Thai pays its Staff.

 

So no excuses. Spend the money on getting the right man at the helm with turnaround experience - not on a new fleet and a pile of debt.

[Dibbler]

2 hours ago, bowerboy said:

Exactly which Asians Tier are you talking about? Their Gold card is equivalent to Thai Bronze according to their website. Diamond plus is equivalent to Thai Gold. Please can you confirm (out of genuine interest).

Here are the details on Asiana Club elite levels:
Asiana Silver: By joining Asiana Club, you automatically become a Silver member. 

Asiana Gold: Achieved with 20,000 Asiana or Star Alliance miles or 30 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Equivalent to Star Alliance Silver status, 5,000-mile discount on one award flight, two business lounge passes, 5 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, dedicated elite member check-in counter, 10kg extra baggage allowance
Asiana Diamond: Achieved with 40,000 Asiana or Star Alliance miles or 50 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Equivalent to Star Alliance Gold status, free lounge access for member and a guest, one discount coupon for a 50 percent discount on a miles upgrade or a 10,000-mile discount on an award ticket, 10 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, 20kg extra baggage allowance, access to business class check-in counter
Asiana Diamond Plus: Achieved with Asiana or Star Alliance miles 100,000 miles or 100 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Peak season award prices are waived, free access to the first class lounge for member and a guest, two discount coupons, 15 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, access to first class check-in, 30kg luggage allowance on Asiana flights, lifetime membership after 500,000 miles or 500 boardings
Asiana Platinum: Achieved with Asiana or Star Alliance miles 1,000,000 miles, or 1000 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Two discount coupons for every 100,000 miles flown, 20 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, lifetime membership

You can accumulate Asiana miles on a large number of partners, including Air Astana, Etihad and Qatar.  The tables are here.

[Artisi]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:54 AM, ukrules said:

Why not increase the prices to make more money?

Surely that is step 1 of Thai business studies 101#,  it negates the need to investigate why profits are falling.

[GinBoy2]

I've sorta lost count on how many of these 'TG Turnaround' I've read.

Since the airline industry got kinda serious in the md 2000's, running an airline as a military hobby just doesn't cut it anymore.

Most airlines went through the pain to restructure their business model, but this isn't a real airline, it's designed to airline taxi service for an elite few of Thai.

New aircraft (again) it's back into hobby territory.

Somebody sooner or later just needs to pull the life support plug.

But I will be long dead and buried before reality infects Thai thinking

[tso310]

5 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I've sorta lost count on how many of these 'TG Turnaround' I've read.

Since the airline industry got kinda serious in the md 2000's, running an airline as a military hobby just doesn't cut it anymore.

Most airlines went through the pain to restructure their business model, but this isn't a real airline, it's designed to airline taxi service for an elite few of Thai.

New aircraft (again) it's back into hobby territory.

Somebody sooner or later just needs to pull the life support plug.

But I will be long dead and buried before reality infects Thai thinking

Can't agree with you more. You can chart the whole sorry mess Thai is in back to when Thai and TAC were merged. Thai slowly went from being a true 5 star airline to the confused mess it is today. As was said in a previous Thai thread, they should do what MAS did and get a foreigner with a proven track record in this industry and sort this sorry mess out. 

[Blue bruce]

Yes that's the Thai way. Don't lease we must own. When i travel i don't care what type of plane it is. As long as it's safe and gets me from point A to point B at a competitive price. That's how most people choose which airline to use. Please tell me how spending 100 billion baht is going decrease Thai airlines loses????

[dundas]

I've noticed that fares from Australia to Thailand on Thai aren't nearly as good value as the fares for longer distance. I fly Melbourne - BKK - Osaka several times a year, and Thai offers great value on this route. On the other hand, flying to Chiang Mai in the same fare 'buckets' costs nearly as much, despite being a lot shorter distance. 

 

As for improving the service, using air bridges would go a long way. I curse airline management each time I have to get on a bus. Yes, they save money, but schlepping around airport perimeters really detracts from the passenger experience, and definitely diminishes the brand. 

 

From an operational point of view, having a few of every conceivable type of passenger jet flying cannot be all that smart. Personally, I would like them to simplify the fleet and with any luck get rid of those new long distance aircraft offering minimal short-haul levels of comfort (AKA 787s).  But as at least one or two other posters have noted, maybe buying new aircraft is all about the 'commission' for interested parties ...  

Edited September 22, 2018 by dundas

[bowerboy]

10 hours ago, Dibbler said:

Here are the details on Asiana Club elite levels:
Asiana Silver: By joining Asiana Club, you automatically become a Silver member. 

Asiana Gold: Achieved with 20,000 Asiana or Star Alliance miles or 30 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Equivalent to Star Alliance Silver status, 5,000-mile discount on one award flight, two business lounge passes, 5 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, dedicated elite member check-in counter, 10kg extra baggage allowance
Asiana Diamond: Achieved with 40,000 Asiana or Star Alliance miles or 50 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Equivalent to Star Alliance Gold status, free lounge access for member and a guest, one discount coupon for a 50 percent discount on a miles upgrade or a 10,000-mile discount on an award ticket, 10 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, 20kg extra baggage allowance, access to business class check-in counter
Asiana Diamond Plus: Achieved with Asiana or Star Alliance miles 100,000 miles or 100 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Peak season award prices are waived, free access to the first class lounge for member and a guest, two discount coupons, 15 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, access to first class check-in, 30kg luggage allowance on Asiana flights, lifetime membership after 500,000 miles or 500 boardings
Asiana Platinum: Achieved with Asiana or Star Alliance miles 1,000,000 miles, or 1000 Asiana flights accumulated over 2 years.  Two discount coupons for every 100,000 miles flown, 20 percent mile bonus on Asiana flights, lifetime membership

You can accumulate Asiana miles on a large number of partners, including Air Astana, Etihad and Qatar.  The tables are here.

Thanks for this.

 

That certainly is an easier route to gold (equivalent) for sure.

 

With Thai you get one free upgrade per year plus one 50% discount points booking (booking, not upgrade from paid flight) which seems slightly more generous. It is a 2 year membership also.

 

Will look into Asians. Thanks for this.

[zzaa09]

7 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I've sorta lost count on how many of these 'TG Turnaround' I've read.

Since the airline industry got kinda serious in the md 2000's, running an airline as a military hobby just doesn't cut it anymore.

Most airlines went through the pain to restructure their business model, but this isn't a real airline, it's designed to airline taxi service for an elite few of Thai.

New aircraft (again) it's back into hobby territory.

Somebody sooner or later just needs to pull the life support plug.

But I will be long dead and buried before reality infects Thai thinking

Adding, Thais are very good business folks as it relates to international schemes. 

Their proven history of incompetence is quite reflective by how they've been running TG into the ground for decades.

 

Lotsa talk, yet no progressive results.

[White Christmas13]

On 9/21/2018 at 8:06 AM, BobbyL said:

They really are a bunch of clowns. They are still one of the most expensive airlines listed for a very second rate service.

 

They were as usual the most expensive to LHR when I booked recently and when we booked Japan for xmas they were more than ANA and Japan Airlines. 

yes I booked with scoot the service was excellent new airplane the cost from Perth to Bangkok $690 return

Thai old Airplane $1460  

[josephbloggs]

On 9/21/2018 at 4:04 PM, Fex Bluse said:

Those busses are one of the most pathetic things I've ever experienced. National carrier. Either they have classic Thai inability to manage and plan or they have the other classic trait which is cheapness as they may save money by not parking at a gate. 

 

Really low class 

I fly often for work and short to mid haul I choose Thai.  I find their service to be pretty good, planes are generally fairly new - A350 to Singapore was nice but has now been shifted to another route - or reasonable condition older 777s or A330s.   In-flight entertainment is pretty pathetic but for a flight of four hours or less I don't really care.  Flew to Tokyo on their A380 recently in economy and thought it was good, especially upstairs.  It's actually not a bad airline as evidenced by their recent Skytrax awards.

 

Long haul I would never choose them as there are far better options.  Always fly EK back the UK as they are head and shoulders above Thai.  

 

The remote parking is not good but what many people don't realise is that often it is because a plane is arriving in Bangkok internationally, then its next flight is going to be a domestic one.  They can't pull up to an international gate (C to G) and then leave from a domestic gate (A, B) - they can't move the aircraft between flights - so they use a remote gate.  Call it bad design or bad planning but it is not simply because of fees.  And very rarely does it happen with long haul flights, it is usually shorter flights.  Not excusing it, just worth bearing in mind it is not necessarily their fault.  You don't experience it with other airlines because they don't transition from international to domestic routes.

 

And I have arrived in Dubai, on Emirates in business, and had to get a bus from the plane.  I was not impressed with that.

Edited September 22, 2018 by josephbloggs
Typo

[GinBoy2]

Well your airport arrival, bus or jet bridge, has nothing to do with the airline, although that being said TG and AOT are pretty intertwined.

It just comes down pretty much to price. You can fly on almost any route operated by TG with another airline for a lot less money.

Most of us work on the principle that it's xx hours of of your life, and you can put up with almost anything to save a few hundred $$.

If TG was offering something spectacular for that few hundred extra bucks, maybe that would be something. But in most cases it's at best mediocre

[scorecard]

17 hours ago, dundas said:

I've noticed that fares from Australia to Thailand on Thai aren't nearly as good value as the fares for longer distance. I fly Melbourne - BKK - Osaka several times a year, and Thai offers great value on this route. On the other hand, flying to Chiang Mai in the same fare 'buckets' costs nearly as much, despite being a lot shorter distance. 

 

As for improving the service, using air bridges would go a long way. I curse airline management each time I have to get on a bus. Yes, they save money, but schlepping around airport perimeters really detracts from the passenger experience, and definitely diminishes the brand. 

 

From an operational point of view, having a few of every conceivable type of passenger jet flying cannot be all that smart. Personally, I would like them to simplify the fleet and with any luck get rid of those new long distance aircraft offering minimal short-haul levels of comfort (AKA 787s).  But as at least one or two other posters have noted, maybe buying new aircraft is all about the 'commission' for interested parties ...  

 

Bus. Nowadays for disabled passengers airlines sometimes use a mini van to get to the bottom of the stairs but with little real help to get up (and down) the static stairs.

 

When I used Thai I saw this many times with disabled passengers struggling with some help from able bodied people travelling with them while Thai staff just chatted.

 

Plus many times when the disabled passenger is inside the aircraft door the trolley dollies just disappear. Can't count the times when other passengers quickly offered to help and kept watch for any sign of further assistance being needed.

 

Example, food tray put on fold down tray table and trolley dolley just moved on. Another passenger presses the overhead button, another cabin crew member comes and does nothing but quickly another passenger steps in and helps.

 

Thai staff should watch videos of how Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and other airlines handle this with full care and with great consideration for the welfare and emotional needs of the disabled passenger.

 

Another one, many times I witnessed young Thai women (with Essan face) come on board with perhaps a baby and a toddler. Trolley dollies totally ignore the passenger, other passengers quickly come to the young mothers aid to get seated and throughout the flight watch for any needs and react quickly and carefully. 

 

On one occasion I saw a much older Thai lady (passenger) get up and help and at the same time requesting the trolley dollies to help; they didn't.  The older lady demanded the supervisor come and she gave the supervisor a severe dressing down. Help never came.

 

But before landing the supervisor came back with an already opened bottle of perfume and made a big display of giving the opened perfume to the young mother.

 

Did they give her any assistance to get the sleeping baby, the toddler and their cabin baggage off the aircraft? No. But other passengers did. 

 

[Oziex1]

Just now, scorecard said:

 

Bus. Nowadays for disabled passengers airlines sometimes use a mini van to get to the bottom of the stairs but with little real help to get up (and down) the static stairs.

 

When I used Thai I saw this many times with disabled passengers struggling with some help from able bodied people travelling with them while Thai staff just chatted.

 

Plus many times when the disabled passenger is inside the aircraft door the trolley dollies just disappear. Can't count the times when other passengers quickly offered to help and kept watch for any sign of further assistance being needed.

 

Example, food tray put on fold down tray table and trolley dolley just moved on. Another passenger presses the overhead button, another cabin crew member comes and does nothing but quickly another passenger steps in and helps.

 

Thai staff should watch videos of how Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and other airlines handle this with full care and with great consideration for the welfare and emotional needs of the disabled passenger.

 

Another one, many times I witnessed young Thai women (with Essan face) come on board with perhaps a baby and a toddler. Trolley dollies totally ignore the passenger, other passengers quickly come to the young mothers aid to get seated and throughout the flight watch for any needs and react quickly and carefully. 

 

On one occasion I saw a much older Thai lady (passenger) get up and help and at the same time requesting the trolley dollies to help; they didn't.  The older lady demanded the supervisor come and she gave the supervisor a severe dressing down. Help never came.

 

But before landing the supervisor came back with an already opened bottle of perfume and made a big display of giving the opened perfume to the young mother.

 

Did they give her any assistance to get the sleeping baby, the toddler and their cabin baggage off the aircraft? No. But other passengers did. 

 

Just came back from Phuket with Thai Air, their method of dealing with the disabled is to park them and their wheelchair in a small container box that is on a scissor lift, this is lifted and aligned to an entrance opposite the entrance the able bodied passengers are coming in. Staff then wheel the passenger to their seat fold and remove the wheelchair. 

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

TG and PG planes arrive at the international gates and use the fingerport to allow passengers to disembark. These fingerports are connected directly to the international terminal yet they do not open the glass doors and allow passengers direct access to the arrivals area in the terminal. Instead, the passengers then have to go downstairs to get on buses that ferry them to another area of the international terminal.

 

In the case of remote parking away from the terminal you are correct, and it also happens on the first and last planned flights of the aircraft on any given day.

 

What people are complaining about is arriving at the terminal and having to bus it anyway. Both TG and PG are guilty of this due to the reasons I highlighted earlier.

 

 

Well that is strange indeed - I've never encountered that.  The only possible reason I can think of for that is some sort of congestion in the terminal?  They would be paying the same parking fees anyway so it doesn't make sense that they would do that to save money - it probably costs them more as they are paying for the airbridge and also for the busses.

 

Out of interest, how many times has that happened?  I have never had that.

 

Edit: Thought of a reason.  I believe the B concourse switches between being used as an international concourse and a domestic concourse at a certain time each day, I think around 4pm.  My guess is that that bus thing you described happens for any flights that dock in B around this switchover time. 

 

And also for the same reason as the remote parking - an international flight parking at domestic gates (A, B) will need to bus the passengers to the international arrivals area.

 

I still stick by my assertion that these remote instances are generally not for reasons of saving on fees.

Edited September 23, 2018 by josephbloggs

[Bkkthebest]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:47 AM, bluesofa said:

Years ago I went to a beer bar where the prices were more expensive than neighbouring bars. I casually asked the owner why that was. The answer: "No ferangs, so need to charge more to make money."

 

Thaiconomics for you. 

[josephbloggs]

39 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

 

 

And also for the same reason as the remote parking - an international flight parking at domestic gates (A, B) will need to bus the passengers to the international arrivals area.

 

I still stick by my assertion that these remote instances are generally not for reasons of saving on fees.

It can definitely be called bad fleet management or bad planning though.  TG rotate their fleet between international and domestic all the time so it's an issue that is hard for them to avoid.  It's not because of fees.

[Toosetinmyways]

2 hours ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

No kickbacks from leasing.

Buy and the commission is paid as a lump sum.

Lease and the commission is paid monthly.

[Derek B]

On 9/21/2018 at 7:18 AM, falang1969 said:

BA uses ancient 18 year old 777's LHR-BKK and are always full and making money. Buying new planes is not the answer.... reduce your prices to compete.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I only fly BA to burn up air miles - 777 suck anyway.

 

[JAG]

According to airfleets.net Thai have 83 aeroplanes in service, and a further 51 stored out of service!

 

And they want to buy some more?

[josephbloggs]

27 minutes ago, JAG said:

According to airfleets.net Thai have 83 aeroplanes in service, and a further 51 stored out of service!

 

And they want to buy some more?

That's a silly comparison.  They are old, retired aircraft, past their service life, many of which have been scrapped.  All airlines retire planes.  British Airways have 81 "stored aircraft".  Guess they should never buy any new ones right?

 

Or are you suggesting instead of buying new, efficient, comfortable planes Thai should reinstate their scrapped 30-year A300's?

[JAG]

2 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

That's a silly comparison.  They are old, retired aircraft, past their service life, many of which have been scrapped.  All airlines retire planes.  British Airways have 81 "stored aircraft".  Guess they should never buy any new ones right?

 

Or are you suggesting instead of buying new, efficient, comfortable planes Thai should reinstate their scrapped 30-year A300's?

They're listed as stored, not scrapped. I take that to mean that they are still owned by the airline. When scrapped or otherwise disposed of they will realise some value for the airline, but at the moment they are costing some money, and therefore contributing to the airlines losses. My point is that before ( or at least whilst)  venturing into a major new fleet upgrade they should dispose of their stored aircraft. They might not get much for them, but at least they won't be contributing to the losses.

 

I don't think that is a silly point to make?

[Wiggy]

16 minutes ago, JAG said:

They're listed as stored, not scrapped. I take that to mean that they are still owned by the airline. When scrapped or otherwise disposed of they will realise some value for the airline, but at the moment they are costing some money, and therefore contributing to the airlines losses. My point is that before ( or at least whilst)  venturing into a major new fleet upgrade they should dispose of their stored aircraft. They might not get much for them, but at least they won't be contributing to the losses.

 

I don't think that is a silly point to make?

Airlines often store an aircraft once it becomes no longer economically viable to operate. Particularly if it's due a major safety check, as it becomes cheaper to store it than to fly it. They can remain in storage for a long time until all the viable spare parts are sold. So the time it's actually disposed of is not necessarily up to the airline, but rather the market.Then the remaining metal (usually just the fuselage) is scrapped.

 

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2842/what-does-storing-an-aircraft-technically-mean