Rice Seed Price & Cost

[farmerdave]

Hi everyone,

first post on a board, been glued to this one for 4 hours now -must go really & get something done. Have to say its got me hooked....

Recently come back to uk from Thailand (2nd visit) and as i understand it, one of many that got "encouraged" to pay for a bit of family land. Near Non Dindaeng, Buri Ram. I'm sure that one of these days before the rains come, there may be a "darling..... i need seed.... no money" text.

Im into property now, but most of my life has been working on large farms in uK (2500 acres +) and as i analyse things before coughing up, i am looking for some idea of what planting rice involves - seed amount, cost etc. Do small subsistance farmers save last years seed or buy from a supplier? I know nothing of rice planting, i could get 2000 acres of wheat in the ground, no trouble, but this is all new to me. I read with interest every post on the subject, but none seem to cover seed, methods f crop care etc. Any advice would be welcome. Area concerned is total of 5 rai in quite small divisions (i'm sure they have a proper name....

[Maizefarmer]

I am going to bow out from making any particular comment on rice farming - I don't know much about it - but any oppurtuntity to encourage someone to consider farming as an occupation in Thailand I'm all for.

Whatever type of farming you decide to do, you are in for a shocker if you compare it with the logistics and management used on 2000 acre + Western farms. A "balance sheet" for a Thai farm would have a Western farmer in a fit. Few Thai farms operate at that level, most are subsitance - a combination of all sorts of issues - and operate at efficiency levels that are far below the disciplined financial enviroment of European farms.

If you have spent 4 hrs reading the Farming forum you wil have noticed I have farmed in Thailand close on 20 yrs. A quick summary of my experiance to date is that the first 5 years were 24/7, lots of tears and constant doubt. The next 5 years were spent correcting the mistakes of the first 5 years, and the last 10 spent concentrating on management. In summary - the actual animal caring and crop growing is the easy part, and, the hard work never stops.

While I do not wish to sound judgemental on others relationships, the evidance is that unless you are on hand and present (especially while your hard earned cash is been spent) things seldom go the way you would want or expect. I think most would concurr with me here i.e. be present and play an active role in the decision making process - do not try this from home (read as: do not try and manage from the UK).

Secondly, do your homework - and do it again and again and again: I personaly feel one of the many problems in the Thai ag industry at the small to medium farm level is a lack of education. While you cannot run a Thai farm using a European model (to start with European farms survive not on their own finances but on state subsidies, whereas Thai farms survive solely on income generated), if you have experiance gained from running a 2000plus acre farm in the UK, you will have a ton of experiance which the average Thai farmer does not have and who will benefit tremendously from - which is more reason why you should be here as "corrospondance" learning to your Thai partner & family will go down like a lead ballon. They will be tied into a generations old model of farming.

Old habits die hard.

I can't comment on rice farming - best left to other forum members who have experiance - and take note of what they say, because it will be invaluable experiance based on much the same set of circumstances you are going to experiance and find yourself in - but should you decide to consider livestock (exclduing pigs - also something I know nothing about), or crop growing, I may well be able to offer some practical advise.

I wish you every success.

Maizefarmer

[ozzydom]

Hi everyone,

first post on a board, been glued to this one for 4 hours now -must go really & get something done. Have to say its got me hooked....

Recently come back to uk from Thailand (2nd visit) and as i understand it, one of many that got "encouraged" to pay for a bit of family land. Near Non Dindaeng, Buri Ram. I'm sure that one of these days before the rains come, there may be a "darling..... i need seed.... no money" text.

Im into property now, but most of my life has been working on large farms in uK (2500 acres +) and as i analyse things before coughing up, i am looking for some idea of what planting rice involves - seed amount, cost etc. Do small subsistance farmers save last years seed or buy from a supplier? I know nothing of rice planting, i could get 2000 acres of wheat in the ground, no trouble, but this is all new to me. I read with interest every post on the subject, but none seem to cover seed, methods f crop care etc. Any advice would be welcome. Area concerned is total of 5 rai in quite small divisions (i'm sure they have a proper name....

Ok,farmerdave ,here is how I see it . I am an expat Tasmanian with a background in small mixed farming, similar to Britain. Small fruits ,berry fruits,hops ,potatoes, sheep cattle and pigs.

Iwatched the Thais growing sticky rice here for a few seasons with a few giggles at the ancient inefficient practises they employ(maizefarmer IMHO is correct in every thing he says in his post).

Last year we decided to give growing rice one go to see if it was economically viable but I did it my way and shut my ears to the family and villagers advise, both well meaning and sarcastic.

First off I had soil analysis done and fertilised to correct deficiencies,I did not burn off the previous years contract stubble but but turned it in and left it fallow fo about 7 months. Instead of sticky rice I bought certified hom-mali (jasmine rice)seed from the Ag Dept from that point it was handled not dissimilarly to the tradition way .

Isowed the seed in nursery beds after the first rains and had a crew of women hand plant after about 30 days.No fertiliser was used between sowing and harvesting.

Now the balance sheet= Fallowing =400bt per rai

discing =400 " " "

Harrowing = 200 " " " (using our own small tractor)

Seed =300 " " "

Planting =800 " " " ( 4 ladies @ 200 per day each)

Weeding =800 " " " " " " " " "

Cutting = 1600 " " " ( 8 " " " " "

Threshing = 400 " " "

These figures are approximate and dont include our own labour,incidentals like bags etc.

We harvested 1050 kg per rai @ 99bt per 12kg unit,odd selling unit but thats LoS

Now if you consider the av harvest for sticky rice in Central and Nth T,Land is 280 kg per rai We did well ,but it was the first and last for me,We lent another 7 rai we own to a family member to grow sticky rice per their way an the result was 1100 kg harvest from the 7 rai.

Maizefarmers words of caution re being on hand is most important, My mate at Roiet put in 50 rai and every time we were away holidaying for a few days the call would come ,"send money quick ,rice going brown ,need fertiliser",he lost out big-time.

ozzydom

[chownah]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

Edited February 12, 2007 by chownah

[farmerdave]

Thanks guys, you've excelled yourself ! I wasn't expecting anything as comprehensive as that....... As much as I would like to live in Thailand, i have too many committments here at home, so I can only get back when I can find an excuse to get away. I didn't realise before reading this board that there were so many "Falangs" in the North East. I'm getting to like the idea more & more and i'm addicted to looking at these forums, this one in particular. My "Friend" in question has just gone back to Buri Ram after a very short time away (her idea & I don't need to say more). She told me about the land in question, but to be fair never outright asked me to cough up. I thought about it after looking at it and tried to talk her out of it - it looked too dry to my standards, but then i openly admit to not knowing much about it (hence my post). It borders the Nang Rong Dam and she tells me "water there, we put"

I hear many stories from others about sick buffalo etc etc and really just wanted to pre arm myself for future requests. I thought the land would be better and more sustainable income than merely sending cash every month.

Despite that, i am genuinely interested in farming methods in Isaan and will try to take at least some part during my visits, if the season allows. Early days yet, but perhaps even come & see you guys in action - i can talk till the cows come home - Parden the pun

Thanks

Dave

[ozzydom]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

It was only about 25kg per Rai ,Id have to search up the analysis sheet I do recall PH and P were ok ,I also didnt include the 100k per rai I paid for that block,plus every block of land is going to anylyse different so it wasnt much use in the context of the posters needs.

You havnt sold much rice Chownah, the Govt sets the rice price initially each season ,this year sticky started at 103 bt per 12kg,govt does not set the price for Jasmine which was 98 bt per 12kg. it probably dates back to a unit of measure , I can rember when we sold fish in Oz by the basket and lobsters by the bakers dozen

[ozzydom]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

Four times, not nearly twice the yield, if you had read the post carefully you would have noticed that I bought certified improved Hom-mali seednot held over sticky seed, good practice is to adjust soil analysis prior to planting not after, also rice and other plants grown in wet environment have better access to available nutrients ala hydroponics.I know its hard for you to believe anything you dont find on some website but there you are.

[chownah]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

It was only about 25kg per Rai ,Id have to search up the analysis sheet I do recall PH and P were ok ,I also didnt include the 100k per rai I paid for that block,plus every block of land is going to anylyse different so it wasnt much use in the context of the posters needs.

You havnt sold much rice Chownah, the Govt sets the rice price initially each season ,this year sticky started at 103 bt per 12kg,govt does not set the price for Jasmine which was 98 bt per 12kg. it probably dates back to a unit of measure , I can rember when we sold fish in Oz by the basket and lobsters by the bakers dozen

Thanks for the reply. Using 25kg per rai is considered a strong dose around here for a single application....based on the gov't rice office recommendations and what farmers use...not based on anything from the internet. Actually I haven't sold any rice at all....I'm a foreigner and can not legallly raise or sell rice....my wife is the rice farmer and I give her friendly advice and encouragement but actually she makes the decisions and she has never sold to the gov't.....she sells to private people and I think this is because it is one way for a farmer to make social connections and also because some of them will come and pickup the rice while I think you have to deliver it to the gov't weigh station but I don't know because she's never done that. I'm still wondering about the unit of measure...I'm sure there is a name for it but I could be wrong.

Chownah

P.S. Pleasd do try to find the contents of the fertilizer you used. I'm really interested.

Chownah

Edited February 16, 2007 by chownah

[chownah]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

Four times, not nearly twice the yield, if you had read the post carefully you would have noticed that I bought certified improved Hom-mali seednot held over sticky seed, good practice is to adjust soil analysis prior to planting not after, also rice and other plants grown in wet environment have better access to available nutrients ala hydroponics.I know its hard for you to believe anything you dont find on some website but there you are.

When I remarked that you were getting almost twice the typical yield this was based on what farmers around here typically get....not from anything I found on the internet...I guess the typical farmer around here gets better yields than what you have seen there. I did read your post carefully and I did notice that you used certified hom-mali seeds...but I'm wondering which variety....I noticed on the internet (yes THIS is from the internet) that there are about four or five different kinds suggested by the gov't and I'm wondering which one you used. One year my wife bought some gov't certified hom-mali seed and it worked just fine. That's an interesting view to compare rice paddy to hydroponics....there is a problem associated with this though and that is leaching of nutrients. Since you constantly have water filling the fields and slowly infiltrating then you also have leaching loses....that's one reason why its difficult for me to understand how one application pre planting could give such good results without a mid season addition of nitrogen which is the nutrient most susceptible to leaching.

I ususually rely on my own personal experiences in developing my beliefs and only use the internet to acquire opinions which I then try to reconcile with my experiences.....your post is a good example of this. What you posted seems to be contrary to what I have experienced so now I'm discussing it with you to try to find the information that will help it make sense and so I can incorporate what I learn from you into my farming practices to see if I can replicate them myself. I know that my method of learning ruffles a few feathers because some people don't like being questioned about what they have put on the internet but really I think it is wise to always question what you find on the internet....don't you agree? Thanks for the input.

Chownah

[ozzydom]

What were the deficiencies in the soil you fertilized for and how much did the fertilizer cost....you did not include it in your cost breakdown.

I've never heard of the 12 kg units you were selling the rice in....is that some kind of bag...or bucket?

Hard to believe that you got almost twice the typical yield without fertilizing between planting and harvest.

Chownah

Four times, not nearly twice the yield, if you had read the post carefully you would have noticed that I bought certified improved Hom-mali seednot held over sticky seed, good practice is to adjust soil analysis prior to planting not after, also rice and other plants grown in wet environment have better access to available nutrients ala hydroponics.I know its hard for you to believe anything you dont find on some website but there you are.

When I remarked that you were getting almost twice the typical yield this was based on what farmers around here typically get....not from anything I found on the internet...I guess the typical farmer around here gets better yields than what you have seen there. I did read your post carefully and I did notice that you used certified hom-mali seeds...but I'm wondering which variety....I noticed on the internet (yes THIS is from the internet) that there are about four or five different kinds suggested by the gov't and I'm wondering which one you used. One year my wife bought some gov't certified hom-mali seed and it worked just fine. That's an interesting view to compare rice paddy to hydroponics....there is a problem associated with this though and that is leaching of nutrients. Since you constantly have water filling the fields and slowly infiltrating then you also have leaching loses....that's one reason why its difficult for me to understand how one application pre planting could give such good results without a mid season addition of nitrogen which is the nutrient most susceptible to leaching.

I ususually rely on my own personal experiences in developing my beliefs and only use the internet to acquire opinions which I then try to reconcile with my experiences.....your post is a good example of this. What you posted seems to be contrary to what I have experienced so now I'm discussing it with you to try to find the information that will help it make sense and so I can incorporate what I learn from you into my farming practices to see if I can replicate them myself. I know that my method of learning ruffles a few feathers because some people don't like being questioned about what they have put on the internet but really I think it is wise to always question what you find on the internet....don't you agree? Thanks for the input.

Chownah

The block I planted last season is low lying between the river and our village,during the wet a lot of the water is seepage from the village ,as you can imagine loaded in nutrients,I was aware of this by the previous years vigourous weed growth despite no fertiliser for several years.

I did intend to give the crop a dose of K at seed emergence Which I,ve done with flower and seed crops over the years but the heading up looked good so I relented.

The growers around me gave their crops the usual liberal dose of nitrate which gave themvery high growth which then fell over into the water,you know the result of that. The hom-mali had twice the denseness of growth but stood bolt upright and for whatever reason our crop was ready for cutting two weeks prior to the sticky rice.

An illustration of the denseness of growth is that we had over 400 hands per rai ,three rai only a bung wall away of sticky had a total of 400.

The locals were amazed at the 'farangs' great crop, but comparing the 10k per rai return with forecasted 175k per rai for fish (based on pond No.1)we put in more ponds.

But before everybody calls in the pond digger, be aware the market is limited here in Esan as we are away from the bulk buyers down south. Folk like the farangs fish because I dont use animal poo, I use propriety food and high phospherous fertiliser to promote micro-organism and plankton growth ,expensive but good results.

[RamdomChances]

I've split the weights and measures bit into a different thread.