EU court may decide before Christmas if UK can unilaterally reverse Brexit

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Ironic really. Without the US and UK your country would be under Soviet or Nazi rule. 

 

How quick gratitude changes to jealousy, envy and prejudice.

And the Russians of course.  They were just as instrumental in defeating Hitler in WW2.  Maybe we should sidestep that one though...

 

Amazing that there are still some people who drag up events from eighty years ago to try to justify their actions today.  There are plenty of reasons to want out of the EU without "mentioning the war" as John Cleese would say.  ????

[anon7867763]

Brexit...Only the Brits could be so stupid !

[Jip99]

36 minutes ago, johnsnapo said:

Brexit...Only the Brits could be so stupid !

 

Racist koont!

[Stupooey]

18 hours ago, Bundooman said:

And If only we could turn the clock back with hindsight and say:

 

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we can kick Harold Wilson out.

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we can get rid of Neil Kinnock.

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we obliterate Tony Bair.

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we can get rid of Gordon brown.

 

But hey!

 

The democratic vote could not be overturned - could it? I had to put up with the <deleted> these worthless cretins imposed on the once GB for years.

I don't remember once anyone saying "we need to overturn this disastrous vote...……

 

Except now, when the same legal result of a national vote doesn't agree with your strong democratic views, eh? 

 

 

 

Let's examine the facts:

Wilson - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time

Kinnock - never elected PM

Blair - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time

Brown - Voted out after less than 3 years as PM

People change their minds over a 2-3 year period, although with the Referendum even that would not have to happen. Because of the demographic voting split, many more Leave voters than Remain have since died, and have been replaced on the electoral roll by 18 and 19 year olds who would be expected to mainly support Remain. Even if nobody had changed their mind since 2016 (and there is evidence there has been a small shift to Remain, mainly amongst Labour supporters in the North of England), it is likely that the Leave majority will have been eroded by March 2019. 

Is it morally justifiable for such a momentous event to take place against the wishes of the majority of the electorate at the time of exit?

[ivor bigun]

 
Let's examine the facts:
Wilson - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time
Kinnock - never elected PM
Blair - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time
Brown - Voted out after less than 3 years as PM
People change their minds over a 2-3 year period, although with the Referendum even that would not have to happen. Because of the demographic voting split, many more Leave voters than Remain have since died, and have been replaced on the electoral roll by 18 and 19 year olds who would be expected to mainly support Remain. Even if nobody had changed their mind since 2016 (and there is evidence there has been a small shift to Remain, mainly amongst Labour supporters in the North of England), it is likely that the Leave majority will have been eroded by March 2019. 
Is it morally justifiable for such a momentous event to take place against the wishes of the majority of the electorate at the time of exit?

Yes,we voted thats it

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[Esso49]

18 hours ago, dunroaming said:

And the Russians of course.  They were just as instrumental in defeating Hitler in WW2.  Maybe we should sidestep that one though...

 

Amazing that there are still some people who drag up events from eighty years ago to try to justify their actions today.  There are plenty of reasons to want out of the EU without "mentioning the war" as John Cleese would say.  ????

If you were actually old enough you would never forget the horrors of waking up one Friday morning to find that your local Fish & Chip shop had been bombed ????

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

 

Let's examine the facts:

Wilson - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time

Kinnock - never elected PM

Blair - resigned 2 years after being elected for the last time

Brown - Voted out after less than 3 years as PM

People change their minds over a 2-3 year period, although with the Referendum even that would not have to happen. Because of the demographic voting split, many more Leave voters than Remain have since died, and have been replaced on the electoral roll by 18 and 19 year olds who would be expected to mainly support Remain. Even if nobody had changed their mind since 2016 (and there is evidence there has been a small shift to Remain, mainly amongst Labour supporters in the North of England), it is likely that the Leave majority will have been eroded by March 2019. 

Is it morally justifiable for such a momentous event to take place against the wishes of the majority of the electorate at the time of exit?

Manchester Utd signed 6 new players this season, maybe they should let them play last years FA Cup final again, afteral the line up has changed, I don't think Chelsea will mind.

[Stupooey]

6 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Yes,we voted thats it

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So the wishes of dead people are more relevant than those of the living?

[Stupooey]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Manchester Utd signed 6 new players this season, maybe they should let them play last years FA Cup final again, afteral the line up has changed, I don't think Chelsea will mind.

 

The FA Cup Final is played again each year. If the teams happen to be the same, but with different players, the result might well be different. Thanks for supporting my argument.

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

 

The FA Cup Final is played again each year. If the teams happen to be the same, but with different players, the result might well be different. Thanks for supporting my argument.

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was supporting your argument, I was not, infact you do not have an argument, all you give is worthless conjecture. It just looks like a poor attempt to justify the overturning of a democratic decision.

 

[melvinmelvin]

interesting stuff,

am sure this request from Scotland will improve the climate between TM and the bosses in Scotland.

 

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was supporting your argument, I was not, infact you do not have an argument, all you give is worthless conjecture. It just looks like a poor attempt to justify the overturning of a democratic decision.

 

Worthless conjecture? What I have done is take facts (number of deaths since June 2016, number of potential voters added to the electoral roll) and apply logic to them (Leavers and Remainers of the same age dying at the same rate, 18 and 19 year olds having similar opinions and willingness to vote as their 2016 counterparts). On this basis, the conclusion I came to was not unreasonable.

Surely the essence of democracy is that decisions are made based on current thinking, which may well be different to that of 2-3 years ago. Would you be morally satisfied if Brexit went ahead next year against the wishes of the majority of the electorate?

[vogie]

20 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Worthless conjecture? What I have done is take facts (number of deaths since June 2016, number of potential voters added to the electoral roll) and apply logic to them (Leavers and Remainers of the same age dying at the same rate, 18 and 19 year olds having similar opinions and willingness to vote as their 2016 counterparts). On this basis, the conclusion I came to was not unreasonable.

Surely the essence of democracy is that decisions are made based on current thinking, which may well be different to that of 2-3 years ago. Would you be morally satisfied if Brexit went ahead next year against the wishes of the majority of the electorate?

It does not matter what happened after the 23rd June, the vote was to leave the EU. Are you refuting that your figures are not conjecture and are indeed fact?

Whilst I might go along with the balance of leaving may have shifted slightly, that does not mean the electorate are in favour of another vote, most people just want the government to get on with it and leave.

[ivor bigun]

Worthless conjecture? What I have done is take facts (number of deaths since June 2016, number of potential voters added to the electoral roll) and apply logic to them (Leavers and Remainers of the same age dying at the same rate, 18 and 19 year olds having similar opinions and willingness to vote as their 2016 counterparts). On this basis, the conclusion I came to was not unreasonable.
Surely the essence of democracy is that decisions are made based on current thinking, which may well be different to that of 2-3 years ago. Would you be morally satisfied if Brexit went ahead next year against the wishes of the majority of the electorate?

You assume all young people want to remain,my grandaughter doesnt,my niece and nephew dont,afriend of mine in the UK has 2 daughters they dont, its no good assuming ,and also who is to say more remainers than Brexiteers didnt die?

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[Stupooey]

5 hours ago, ivor bigun said:

You assume all young people want to remain,my grandaughter doesnt,my niece and nephew dont,afriend of mine in the UK has 2 daughters they dont, its no good assuming ,and also who is to say more remainers than Brexiteers didnt die?

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Read my post again. I didn't assume that all young people want to remain, rather that the new voters would vote in a similar manner to the way 18-24 year olds did in 2016 (71% remain, 29% leave), which is a reasonable assumption. Your friends/relatives are clearly amongst the 29%. 

My mortality calculations were based on over 65s, who voted 64% leave and 36% remain, and I have assumed that the mortality rate was similar amongst the two groups. If anything my figures were biased towards the leave camp, if you take the generally accepted view that the older the voter, the more likely they were to vote leave, as this would have made the leave mortality figure even higher. In addition I did not include the under 65s, and the mortality rate for ages that voted primarily for leave (50-64) is greater than that for ages that voted primarily for remain (18-49).

One caveat: it is possible that many remainers lost the will to live having seen their jobs, businesses, incomes, pensions etc. left in tatters.

[Stupooey]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

It does not matter what happened after the 23rd June, the vote was to leave the EU. Are you refuting that your figures are not conjecture and are indeed fact?

Whilst I might go along with the balance of leaving may have shifted slightly, that does not mean the electorate are in favour of another vote, most people just want the government to get on with it and leave.

 

I didn't claim that my figures were fact, just that they were logical conclusions from applying previous experience to facts. If anything the figures were biased towards leave, as explained in my previous post. I don't want another referendum as I am opposed to them as a matter of principle. I just don't want such a potentially cataclysmic step to be taken against the wishes of the people. I certainly don't believe that most people now want the government to 'get on with it and leave', and that number appears to be decreasing daily.

[SidJames]

On 10/5/2018 at 6:47 AM, Phuket Man said:

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we stay in Europe.

I didn't know that the UK was leaving Europe as well.

Now that would be difficult to do 

[vogie]

50 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

 

I didn't claim that my figures were fact, just that they were logical conclusions from applying previous experience to facts. If anything the figures were biased towards leave, as explained in my previous post. I don't want another referendum as I am opposed to them as a matter of principle. I just don't want such a potentially cataclysmic step to be taken against the wishes of the people. I certainly don't believe that most people now want the government to 'get on with it and leave', and that number appears to be decreasing daily.

But most people do want the government to get on with it, here are some figures for you to number crunch.

 

However, just because people think Brexit is the wrong decision, it doesn’t necessarily mean they think it should be reversed. They do not. When we ask what people think the government should do about leaving the EU, just over half (53%) think that it should go ahead with Brexit, mostly on its current course (42%) though 11% would prefer a softer Brexit. A fifth (21%) think that the government should call a fresh referendum instead, while 13% would prefer them just to halt Brexit altogether.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/06/23/eu-referendum-two-years/

[Jip99]

On 10/5/2018 at 2:47 AM, Phuket Man said:

We can only hope that this disastrous attempt to ruin the UK is reversed and we stay in Europe.

 

 

Sorry, but you are out of your depth.... that contest you lost a long time ago.

 

The UK will always be in Europe, we simply lose the corset of the EU.

[iroc4life]

So, a foreign "Court" is now going to decide if the UK's Peoples demands can be reversed? ???? ???? Thanks God Trump doesnt listen to foreign courts or the UN when it comes to US policy hahaha. I feel for you europeans and hope you get a real leader someday like Churchill or Thatcher before its too late 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, iroc4life said:

So, a foreign "Court" is now going to decide if the UK's Peoples demands can be reversed? ???? ???? Thanks God Trump doesnt listen to foreign courts or the UN when it comes to US policy hahaha. I feel for you europeans and hope you get a real leader someday like Churchill or Thatcher before its too late 

or a real leader like Trump or midget-Bush

 

you comment is fully on par with "Belgium is a nice city" and "Why do we have military presence in Korea?" 

and "Ich bin ein Hamburger"

 

good grief

 

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

So, a foreign "Court" is now going to decide if the UK's Peoples demands can be reversed? [emoji846] [emoji846] Thanks God Trump doesnt listen to foreign courts or the UN when it comes to US policy hahaha. I feel for you europeans and hope you get a real leader someday like Churchill or Thatcher before its too late 

I very much doubt Churchill or Thatcher would have been Brexiteers and I doubt even the dumbest of Brexiteers would elect a Trump (Farage obviously excepted).

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[iroc4life]

31 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I very much doubt Churchill or Thatcher would have been Brexiteers and I doubt even the dumbest of Brexiteers would elect a Trump (Farage obviously excepted).

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Dunno if you guys are Brits or Europeans but if you are Brits and willing to let Bureaucrats from another country and actually calling for it to regulate your home country, you deserve what you get. Im Just saying. A countries sovereignty belongs to its people alone. IMO   

[RuamRudy]

20 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

interesting stuff,

am sure this request from Scotland will improve the climate between TM and the bosses in Scotland.

 

I think all is going swimmingly so far - I am not sure that I could have envisaged a better transition towards Brexit. I just hope that both the Tories and Labour continue along their paths to implosion. 

[anon537687643]

EU court can decide what it likes! It can’t tell UK Parliament ! Along with the jock nats it can go to hell


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[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, markaoffy said:

EU court can decide what it likes! It can’t tell UK Parliament ! Along with the jock nats it can go to hell


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The problem is that, while those 'jock nats' firmly oppose Brexit, a whopping 62% of Scots voted for remain, and now 74% are firmly in favour of remain. That far exceeds even the SNP's popularity. So what you are really saying is that the Scots themselves can go to hell; they should have no say in England's Brexit. Of course, this has always been the case - something we absolutely reject being thrust upon us by a foreign parliament. Pretty unfair, isn't it?

[brewsterbudgen]

Dunno if you guys are Brits or Europeans but if you are Brits and willing to let Bureaucrats from another country and actually calling for it to regulate your home country, you deserve what you get. Im Just saying. A countries sovereignty belongs to its people alone. IMO   

I'm British and European. And even if Brexit goes through and we lose the benefits of being in the EU, I will remain British and European, although without the freedoms I previously had.

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[ivor bigun]

 
Read my post again. I didn't assume that all young people want to remain, rather that the new voters would vote in a similar manner to the way 18-24 year olds did in 2016 (71% remain, 29% leave), which is a reasonable assumption. Your friends/relatives are clearly amongst the 29%. 
My mortality calculations were based on over 65s, who voted 64% leave and 36% remain, and I have assumed that the mortality rate was similar amongst the two groups. If anything my figures were biased towards the leave camp, if you take the generally accepted view that the older the voter, the more likely they were to vote leave, as this would have made the leave mortality figure even higher. In addition I did not include the under 65s, and the mortality rate for ages that voted primarily for leave (50-64) is greater than that for ages that voted primarily for remain (18-49).
One caveat: it is possible that many remainers lost the will to live having seen their jobs, businesses, incomes, pensions etc. left in tatters.

It seems most of us on here are old,and from what i see its the majority want to leave,

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[Scott]

Troll post removed.   Please stay on topic.

 

[7by7]

17 hours ago, iroc4life said:

So, a foreign "Court" is now going to decide if the UK's Peoples demands can be reversed? ???? ???? Thanks God Trump doesnt listen to foreign courts or the UN when it comes to US policy hahaha. I feel for you europeans and hope you get a real leader someday like Churchill or Thatcher before its too late 

 

Thank God we've got people in charge who understand treaties, international law etc., even if we don't agree with them; rather than an orange clown who governs via twitter!

 

The UK triggered Article 50 formally giving notice to leave the EU, and will do so at 11pm UK time on 29th March 2019. 

 

Unless two things happen.

 

1) The UK decides to stay in.

 

2) The EU agrees to allow the UK to stay in.

 

But as Article 50 has been triggered the EU may not be legally able to allow the UK to remain a member.

 

This is what the court will decide; can the UK remain a member on the same terms as before, or will it have to apply to rejoin and accept the same terms as all new members; which, among other things, would mean losing the rebate, adopting the Euro and joining Schengen.

 

But all this would only become relevant should the UK decide not to leave, or decides to rejoin once left.

 

The ECJ cannot stop the UK from leaving the EU, neither can the EU commission or any other EU body.

 

Your knowledge of history is as poor as your knowledge of the current situation.

 

Churchill was a great believer in a European community, though in his Zurich speech on 19 September 1946 he did not envisage the UK being a part due to the Empire. Once that dissolved, he changed his mind about that and supported UK membership.

 

Thatcher may have had her arguments with the EU (and won most!) but she was also a supporter of the UK's membership. Indeed, she was a significant architect of the Single European Act 1986 which laid the foundations for the EU as we know it today.