BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Mark1066]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

always looking on the bright side of life. I'm married to a Thai but I haven't lived with her for 12 years, instead I live with the mother of my 11 year old son, maybe I'll get a rebate for living like a Thai.

Perhaps you’ll get a rebate for making offensive generalisations.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

Perhaps you’ll get a rebate for making offensive generalisations.

No need for aggression

[Spidey]

10 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Where did you see that ?

Another source said that TI just replied to BE question, confirming that they wanted income verified, as they always had! Nothing changed.

British Embassy have stated this on more than one occasion. Other posters have confirmed that their embassies have said the same.

[Mark1066]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No need for aggression

And there’s no need to make offensive generalisations. It’s against forum rules as far as I know.

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

And there’s no need to make offensive generalisations. It’s against forum rules as far as I know.

tut tut aren't we correct, the jocular 'generalisation' was made to me by a tourist policeman friend of mine in CM (I used to live there).

[soalbundy]

Perhaps TV can ask for an interview with TI and we would then know more.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Spidey said:

They made the announcement of their change in requirements to the embassies in May. Thus far I have seen no indication that TI will ever stop accepting the letters.

 

However from what I can see there is no chance that the UK embassy will ever restart issuing the letters.

[Tanoshi]

8 hours ago, soalbundy said:

The US may have been dragged along in the keel water of the BE caveat, they too don't verify (do they even look at supporting documents,probably not) The BE rep said herself this was a result of FCO auditing so yes, I still think this is cost cutting, if and when other embassies stop issuing letters (not affidavits) then I will change my mind.

Non of the Embassies can 'verify' their citizens income.

The BE were the first to become frustrated with the negotiations and were the first to notify it's citizens.

The US Embassy has now made an official announcement to the same effect.

 

Other Embassies will either shortly follow suite with official announcements, or continue with 'Stat Decs' or 'Affidavits' and wait for Immigration to refuse the letters, which doesn't help their citizens who need to be advised asap in order to find an alternative solution.

 

It's a bureaucratic stand off, where Immigration are requesting the impossible.

It is now up to Immigration to announce an alternative option, for the thousands of expats using the income or combination method who will be affected …………………….. or perhaps not.

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

The BE were the first to become frustrated with the negotiations and were the first to notify it's citizens.

Negotiations? This was a pass-the-buck dictat that backfired!

[Mark1066]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Negotiations? This was a pass-the-buck dictat that backfired!

The BE isn't passing the buck. They're simply refusing to comply with ridiculous demands.

[Pattaya46]

3 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

The BE isn't passing the buck.

They're simply refusing to comply with ridiculous demands.

The demands from TI never changed, and doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

Do you really thing that the first time TI asked embassies to provide such letters, decades ago, they didn't ask for a document proving for the income ?

Looks like embassies cheated on that point during a long period, but now some of them have thought it could be a legal problem and decided to stop them.

[Spidey]

4 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

The BE isn't passing the buck. They're simply refusing to comply with ridiculous demands.

If they were doing that, they would continue to issue the letters as they do now, as most embassies are doing.

[soalbundy]

10 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Non of the Embassies can 'verify' their citizens income.

The BE were the first to become frustrated with the negotiations and were the first to notify it's citizens.

The US Embassy has now made an official announcement to the same effect.

 

Other Embassies will either shortly follow suite with official announcements, or continue with 'Stat Decs' or 'Affidavits' and wait for Immigration to refuse the letters, which doesn't help their citizens who need to be advised asap in order to find an alternative solution.

 

It's a bureaucratic stand off, where Immigration are requesting the impossible.

It is now up to Immigration to announce an alternative option, for the thousands of expats using the income or combination method who will be affected …………………….. or perhaps not.

I don't see that immigration is asking the impossible, you show your embassy original pension statements,whatever, and bank statements from internet banking, why should it then be impossible for the embassy to say, '' from the documents shown to this embassy by Mr xxx we can verify that he has an income of.....? A reasonable amount of trust is needed in every day life, you trust that your pension will be paid every month, that your children haven't been swapped at birth, that the sun will be up tomorrow, that the passport issued to you is genuine. Verification can be no more than reasonable certainty in good faith, the BE wont go down that road, it has to be written in blood, or has the TI said that the system they have used for decades is no longer reliable, they want to see the word 'verified' so in their wisdom The BE slaps a caveat at the bottom of the letter knowing full well what will happen. 

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

However from what I can see there is no chance that the UK embassy will ever restart issuing the letters.

A mexican stand off with expats in the middle, the future of 3,000 expats is mere collateral damage to both the BE and TI.

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't see that immigration is asking the impossible, you show your embassy original pension statements,whatever, and bank statements from internet banking, why should it then be impossible for the embassy to say, '' from the documents shown to this embassy by Mr xxx we can verify that he has an income of.....? A reasonable amount of trust is needed in every day life, you trust that your pension will be paid every month, that your children haven't been swapped at birth, that the sun will be up tomorrow, that the passport issued to you is genuine. Verification can be no more than reasonable certainty in good faith, the BE wont go down that road, it has to be written in blood, or has the TI said that the system they have used for decades is no longer reliable, they want to see the word 'verified' so in their wisdom The BE slaps a caveat at the bottom of the letter knowing full well what will happen. 

Because they cannot 'verify' that Mr X has an income of xxxx, because they cannot verify the documents you send to support your claim, other than your Govt State Pension, which alone isn't enough to even meet the 40K monthly income.

 

Verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified.

To verify a document that is legally accepted as being true and authentic to Thailand authorities, involves the FCO first 'authenticating' the document, then being legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK.

In Thailand that document would need translating and the translation legalised by the MFA in Bangkok.

 

Such examples are if you married in the UK and want to register your marriage at the local Amphoe.

Your UK marriage certificate must first be authenticated and legalised in the above manner before the Thai authority accept it.

 

Similar with a UK decree and you want to teach in Thailand, your decree must be 'verified' beforehand.

 

The BE cannot verify documents from private institutions, such as your bank, or personal pension provider without your prior written consent, because of Data Protection, which is in place to protect your personal and confidential information from third parties.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Because they cannot 'verify' that Mr X has an income of xxxx, because they cannot verify the documents you send to support your claim, other than your Govt State Pension, which alone isn't enough to even meet the 40K monthly income.

 

Verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified.

To verify a document that is legally accepted as being true and authentic to Thailand authorities, involves the FCO first 'authenticating' the document, then being legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK.

In Thailand that document would need translating and the translation legalised by the MFA in Bangkok.

 

Such examples are if you married in the UK and want to register your marriage at the local Amphoe.

Your UK marriage certificate must first be authenticated and legalised in the above manner before the Thai authority accept it.

 

Similar with a UK decree and you want to teach in Thailand, your decree must be 'verified' beforehand.

 

The BE cannot verify documents from private institutions, such as your bank, or personal pension provider without your prior written consent, because of Data Protection, which is in place to protect your personal and confidential information from third parties.

The BE are being asked to verify income, not documents per se. If you present the original documents to them, all that is needed is a quick perusal of the documents, to ascertain that they are genuine then check the figures against your statement of income. 2 minutes , job done.

[Tanoshi]

35 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

A mexican stand off with expats in the middle, the future of 3,000 expats is mere collateral damage to both the BE and TI.

A lot more than 3,000 expats now the US Embassy have followed the BE.

Other Embassies will follow because they cannot comply with Immigrations request to 'verify' incomes.

 

Alternatively, they could continue and wait for Immigration to refuse their documents.

That would throw their citizens into the caldron at the 11th hour.

 

With the situation now transpiring, the BE were the first Embassy to actually notify it's citizens.

[Spidey]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

Alternatively, they could continue and wait for Immigration to refuse their documents.

That would throw their citizens into the caldron at the 11th hour.

A far better option than the one that they have chosen. TiT where crackdowns are very short lived and usually come to nothing. It seems to me that most embassies recognise this and are continuing as normal until when and if TI make their move.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Because they cannot 'verify' that Mr X has an income of xxxx, because they cannot verify the documents you send to support your claim, other than your Govt State Pension, which alone isn't enough to even meet the 40K monthly income.

 

Verify: make sure or demonstrate that (something) is true, accurate, or justified.

To verify a document that is legally accepted as being true and authentic to Thailand authorities, involves the FCO first 'authenticating' the document, then being legalised by the Thai Embassy in the UK.

In Thailand that document would need translating and the translation legalised by the MFA in Bangkok.

 

Such examples are if you married in the UK and want to register your marriage at the local Amphoe.

Your UK marriage certificate must first be authenticated and legalised in the above manner before the Thai authority accept it.

 

Similar with a UK decree and you want to teach in Thailand, your decree must be 'verified' beforehand.

 

The BE cannot verify documents from private institutions, such as your bank, or personal pension provider without your prior written consent, because of Data Protection, which is in place to protect your personal and confidential information from third parties.

In other words for all practical purposes true legal verification is impossible,  if the embassy doesn't take your documents on trust then there is no way out, and yet the German embassy, up to now anyway, is prepared to do this and it works, example from my letter :-

This is to certify from the documentation seen at this embassy..........blah blah blah

Mr x is receiving annuities from Germany totaling xxxx Euro's

That to my mind is reasonable verification.

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The BE are being asked to verify income, not documents per se. If you present the original documents to them, all that is needed is a quick perusal of the documents, to ascertain that they are genuine then check the figures against your statement of income. 2 minutes , job done.

You have to authenticate the document as genuine, before you can authenticate the income stated on it.

Just because you state it's genuine, doesn't mean it is. A quick perusal cannot confirm it's genuine.

I could knock up an identical letter from my Pension provider that would look as genuine as an original.

[Spidey]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

You have to authenticate the document as genuine, before you can authenticate the income stated on it.

Just because you state it's genuine, doesn't mean it is. A quick perusal cannot confirm it's genuine.

I could knock up an identical letter from my Pension provider that would look as genuine as an original.

I couldn't.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You have to authenticate the document as genuine, before you can authenticate the income stated on it.

Just because you state it's genuine, doesn't mean it is. A quick perusal cannot confirm it's genuine.

I could knock up an identical letter from my Pension provider that would look as genuine as an original.

That is mistrust going from the sublime to the ridiculous

[wayned]

18 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

A lot more than 3,000 expats now the US Embassy have followed the BE.

Unless things have changed since I got my Income Affidavit from the US Embassy on 16 October and used it to obtain my 1 year retirement extension, this statement is total BS!  I discussed the situation with the Vice Consular at that time and she said that they were aware of the BE stating that they were going to discontinue their letters .  She said that the US Embassy was evaluating the situation but said that there were no immediate changes planned with the current system or policy. 

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You have to authenticate the document as genuine, before you can authenticate the income stated on it.

Just because you state it's genuine, doesn't mean it is. A quick perusal cannot confirm it's genuine.

I could knock up an identical letter from my Pension provider that would look as genuine as an original.

What about my passport ? Before I travel to Thailand shouldn't it be authenticated by British authorities and this then given up to the Thai embassy in London for translation and a nice stamp and a letter saying it's genuine for the IO at BKK airport ? No, the passport is taken on trust despite forgeries and terrorism.

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

In other words for all practical purposes true legal verification is impossible,  if the embassy doesn't take your documents on trust then there is no way out, and yet the German embassy, up to now anyway, is prepared to do this and it works, example from my letter :-

Exactly. Up until now your 'affidavits', stat decs' and documents have been taken on trust.

Now the TI want the incomes to be 'verified'.

 

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

This is to certify from the documentation seen at this embassy..........blah blah blah

Mr x is receiving annuities from Germany totaling xxxx Euro's

That to my mind is reasonable verification.

They are only certifying from the evidence given that their statement to Immigration is correct.

That does not verify the statement or documentation is accurate and true.

 

If your a German national then read your Embassies website on the Authentication of documents and certification documents are not forged procedure to verify and legalise documents, then you'll understand what Immigration are requesting from the Embassies, is not impossible, but not practical or workable for individuals.

https://bangkok.diplo.de/th-th/service/legalisation/1376438 

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, wayned said:

Unless things have changed since I got my Income Affidavit from the US Embassy on 16 October and used it to obtain my 1 year retirement extension, this statement is total BS!  I discussed the situation with the Vice Consular at that time and she said that they were aware of the BE stating that they were going to discontinue their letters .  She said that the US Embassy was evaluating the situation but said that there were no immediate changes planned with the current system or policy. 

It has now obviously been evaluated, perhaps the statement from the embassy should be verified by a JP since according to Tanoshi nothing can be taken on trust. 

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

nothing can be taken on trust. 

Not even the posters and their posts.

[Tanoshi]

13 minutes ago, wayned said:

Unless things have changed since I got my Income Affidavit from the US Embassy on 16 October and used it to obtain my 1 year retirement extension, this statement is total BS!  I discussed the situation with the Vice Consular at that time and she said that they were aware of the BE stating that they were going to discontinue their letters .  She said that the US Embassy was evaluating the situation but said that there were no immediate changes planned with the current system or policy. 

The US Embassy have now formally announced withdrawing the 'affidavit' service for US citizens.

 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Exactly. Up until now your 'affidavits', stat decs' and documents have been taken on trust.

Now the TI want the incomes to be 'verified'.

 

They are only certifying from the evidence given that their statement to Immigration is correct.

That does not verify the statement or documentation is accurate and true.

 

If your a German national then read your Embassies website on the Authentication of documents and certification documents are not forged procedure to verify and legalise documents, then you'll understand what Immigration are requesting from the Embassies, is not impossible, but not practical or workable for individuals.

https://bangkok.diplo.de/th-th/service/legalisation/1376438 

This certification is all the IO wants, it is reasonable verification, they don't need it signed in blood, nor do they want a blatant caveat saying all this isn't trustworthy. Obviously the German embassy hasn't been subject to the wrath of TI meaning that the letter from them satisfies their requirements, beyond the scope of the BE obviously.

[Tanoshi]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

This certification is all the IO wants, it is reasonable verification, they don't need it signed in blood, nor do they want a blatant caveat saying all this isn't trustworthy. Obviously the German embassy hasn't been subject to the wrath of TI meaning that the letter from them satisfies their requirements, beyond the scope of the BE obviously.

Then why complain about the BE, continue with the German Embassy.

 

Out of interest, how do the German Embassy provide evidence to Immigration.

Do you show documentation and they produce a letter, as with the BE, OR

Do you swear an 'affidavit' regards income, OR

Do you make a 'Statutory Declaration' regards your income.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Tanoshi