Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[sambum]

5 hours ago, dabhand said:

Concerning the BE letter to New beginnings and, in particular, the comment about ensuring that affected customers are made aware of the Income Letter changes.

Yes, updating the various social network sources (including TV and the like) is fine and dandy but even if only one of their 3,000 'affected customers' is not so connected it will be a 100% fail for that individual.

 

Given that the BE has details of the 3,000 (either email or, as a minimum, addresses) why have they not made the effort to make direct contact with every one they know is likely to require this particular service in the future. The BE has had upwards of six months to organise such an info shot and for this not to happen is beyond the pale.

 

It would be absolutely no surprise if reports come through in the early part of next year of a few 'affected customers' being at their wits end because they were not aware of such changes. Particularly the more elderly individuals who are not particularly internet literate and are set up to contact the BE shortly before their extension expires, because that is always how they have done it.

 

Will the BE really care if such an event happens? Will they ****!!

I have signed up to receive the regular "email alerts" that are mentioned, and in one communication regard this letter fiasco, they made reference to a previous communication ("further to our letter of ........ 2018...... ") I received no such letter, and in spite of sending emails to the Consular Section, and directly to the Ambassador himself in mid October, have had no reply except the bog standard acknowledgement receipt of my email. So I suppose "New Beginnings" should be grateful for his reply!

 

Incidentally, I thought that the Embassy (BE) had known about this problem since May 2018 - according to the letter there have been discussions about it since FEBRUARY 2018, even more reason for agreeing with your final sentence:-

"Will the BE really care if such an event happens? Will they ****!!"

 

And being more than a trifle sceptical about:-

"in particular, the comment about ensuring that affected customers are made aware of the Income Letter changes."

[dabhand]

19 minutes ago, sambum said:

I have signed up to receive the regular "email alerts" that are mentioned, and in one communication regard this letter fiasco, they made reference to a previous communication ("further to our letter of ........ 2018...... ") I received no such letter, and in spite of sending emails to the Consular Section, and directly to the Ambassador himself in mid October, have had no reply except the bog standard acknowledgement receipt of my email. So I suppose "New Beginnings" should be grateful for his reply!

 

Incidentally, I thought that the Embassy (BE) had known about this problem since May 2018 - according to the letter there have been discussions about it since FEBRUARY 2018, even more reason for agreeing with your final sentence:-

"Will the BE really care if such an event happens? Will they ****!!"

 

And being more than a trifle sceptical about:-

"in particular, the comment about ensuring that affected customers are made aware of the Income Letter changes."

Thanks for your comment which just reinforces my view that the BE has acted abominably on this issue. I am in receipt of the BE income letter and have applied via email submission of the required documents. So my email details are on file, but absolute silence from any concerned party to keep their 'affected customers' advised of this very important, possibly life changing, issue.

 

Not all make the effort to sign up for the BE email alerts (guilty m'lud) when they really should. But others may simply be unable to set this up due to personal circumstances. They are the ones who need much better support from the BE than is being given.

 

Yes, as you mentioned, the extent of the delay in advising the 'affected customers' is only now becoming clearer. Even less excuse for not employing a local temp to set up an info alert direct to those known to be affected and then sending off at the point when the decision was broadcast. This should have been high on their list of 'to do's'. But, obviously not........

[sambum]

4 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Thanks for your comment which just reinforces my view that the BE has acted abominably on this issue. I am in receipt of the BE income letter and have applied via email submission of the required documents. So my email details are on file, but absolute silence from any concerned party to keep their 'affected customers' advised of this very important, possibly life changing, issue.

 

Not all make the effort to sign up for the BE email alerts (guilty m'lud) when they really should. But others may simply be unable to set this up due to personal circumstances. They are the ones who need much better support from the BE than is being given.

 

Yes, as you mentioned, the extent of the delay in advising the 'affected customers' is only now becoming clearer. Even less excuse for not employing a local temp to set up an info alert direct to those known to be affected and then sending off at the point when the decision was broadcast. This should have been high on their list of 'to do's'. But, obviously not........

Re the email alerts, they managed to send me one on 15 October giving me some travel advice! (And I've been living here for more than 10 years!)

[soalbundy]

re E-mail alerts, I didn't sign in for those, I keep away from all government departments, I follow the motto, ' never go to the lord of the manor until called'

[Robins]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:32 PM, bigginhill said:

You have no need to worry, as far as I can see. 

You have an income of nearly twice the 65,000 monthly, and you say you use the funds directly from the account to which the pension ia credited.

You need to renew in June, you can get a letter from Embassy valid for 6 months, and can go to immigration early.

You can forward the bare necessity of 65,000 monthly and use the rest as you have done in the past.

800,000 is one choice, 65,000 monthly is the same thing.

Correct me if I.m wrong. 

Don,t think you have anything to worry about. 

Funny you should mention that, I have an appointment at the US Embassy on the 31st of December, and yes I'll go the night before and stay in a hotel to be sure I get thee.   Thank you for the constructive suggestion.  I hope the decent foreigners, especially the ones who have been here many years are not hit too hard by this.

 

Admittedly I panicked early, hopefully they will be reasonable and  willing to accept and examine documents including foreign bank statements showing withdrawals from Thai ATM's and other evidence of income.  

[Robins]

On 11/19/2018 at 5:59 PM, Jim1000 said:

My 800,000 is now in the bank , can anyone save the time of trolling through 99 pages and tell me which bank gives the best one year rate on this amount?

 

I suppose it's too risky to buy a Soi Buakao  beer bar and rely on the monthly  income ? ( only joking )

 

14 hours ago, xylophone said:

Agree......….Thai immigration still have to announce what they will accept as proof of earnings, the one and only proof as after the 1st Jan 2019 is the respected 400,000 or 800,000 bht unless persons affected are in possession of the said embassy letter.

 

But there are so many posters who do not seem to understand this judging by this thread and many others, and they argue otherwise. IT IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND (this for those in denial/advocating other ways etc).

Xylophone, Don't you think you're being a little overly smug and negative? You have no way of knowing that the 800k will be the only method to  prove income.  Ironically having that money in the bank is not really evidence of 65000 Baht a month income, and not having it is not conclusive evidence you don't.     It's not denial to wonder if they will accept other forms of proof.  I'll use the embassy letter next renewal and have the 800K in the bank by the renewal after that, but if they are acting in good faith  and not just trying to get rid of as many foreigners as they can, they will be willing to look at other evidence such as pension statements and foreign bank accounts showing  a consistent pattern of Thai ATM withdrawals, if this is xenophobia they won't.  

I expect to make it, but I'm concerned about guys who have been here many years suddenly being deported when everything they own is here and they have nothing and no place in their home country to go home to.    

Wonder how many 70 year old plus pensioners with nothing to go home to will be jumping off roofs in Pattaya if you are right? 

[fforest1]

1 hour ago, Robins said:

 

Xylophone, Don't you think you're being a little overly smug and negative? You have no way of knowing that the 800k will be the only method to  prove income.  Ironically having that money in the bank is not really evidence of 65000 Baht a month income, and not having it is not conclusive evidence you don't.     It's not denial to wonder if they will accept other forms of proof.  I'll use the embassy letter next renewal and have the 800K in the bank by the renewal after that, but if they are acting in good faith  and not just trying to get rid of as many foreigners as they can, they will be willing to look at other evidence such as pension statements and foreign bank accounts showing  a consistent pattern of Thai ATM withdrawals, if this is xenophobia they won't.  

I expect to make it, but I'm concerned about guys who have been here many years suddenly being deported when everything they own is here and they have nothing and no place in their home country to go home to.    

Wonder how many 70 year old plus pensioners with nothing to go home to will be jumping off roofs in Pattaya if you are right? 

Yes there could be plenty of guys with 800,000 in the bank who are living in 4000 baht a month rooms and just barely scrapping by living here on almost nothing......Maybe they should be making sure that the 800,000 is a fresh 800.000 every year.....They cleared out all the visa running riff-raff now their clearing out the embassy letter riff-raff then it will be 800,000s turn and who knows they might even dig up some elite visa riff-raff..... 

[bigginhill]

16 hours ago, New beginnings said:

There has been a lot of speculation recently as to the way forward for expatriates wishing to extend there stay following the withdrawal of embassy letters confirming income. I have attached a copy of a letter received from the Office of the Ambassador which, whilst it does not in my opinion, confirm how Thai Immigration will proceed in this matter does make two interesting points.

 

Firstly it specifically refers to the “Order of the Immigration Bureau No 327/2557” Their interpretation is that this does not specifically state that an Embassy letter is required although these have been issued on an informal basis.  Needless to say we will have to wait and see how local immigration offices interpret this change.

 

Secondly it is good to see that they propose to visit key expatriate areas to engage with concerned British Nationals. 

Thanks for sharing the letter.

 

Not sure that I am uploading the photos I'd like to add correctly.

 

 I have a couple of things I'd like to say, in my opinion the Embassy has not  dealt with this properly, here it uses the word "misinterpreted" other times they use "percieved",

They could have continued to issue the letters  stating that the declaration has been taken by the embassy and has not been verified or certified, but copies of the documents provided are attached to the letter. It put the ball back into the immigrations court and the other Embassies would have felt more sure of themselves. One caving in has opened a floodgate.

Whilst they state that the immigration does not by law require the letter, the Embassy  has the following on view for anyone to see when needing to renew the extension . Hope I've uploaded the photo correctly

 

That page has now been altered to ..

 

 

 

And they are quick to say it is not required by Thai law, I'd like to know if they fought our corner by explaining that Thai law does not require us to bring the amount into Thailand but to have an income of 800,000. As having 800,000 or 65,000 monthly in a thai bank isthe only solution that they are allowing. What exactly did they negotiate ? Nothing.

Whist I was looking around the BE site also found they are no longer certifying copies of Degrees or educational certificates.

 

Pension_04_01_2018.pdf

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, Robins said:

 

Xylophone, Don't you think you're being a little overly smug and negative? You have no way of knowing that the 800k will be the only method to  prove income.  Ironically having that money in the bank is not really evidence of 65000 Baht a month income, and not having it is not conclusive evidence you don't.     It's not denial to wonder if they will accept other forms of proof.  I'll use the embassy letter next renewal and have the 800K in the bank by the renewal after that, but if they are acting in good faith  and not just trying to get rid of as many foreigners as they can, they will be willing to look at other evidence such as pension statements and foreign bank accounts showing  a consistent pattern of Thai ATM withdrawals, if this is xenophobia they won't.  

I expect to make it, but I'm concerned about guys who have been here many years suddenly being deported when everything they own is here and they have nothing and no place in their home country to go home to.    

Wonder how many 70 year old plus pensioners with nothing to go home to will be jumping off roofs in Pattaya if you are right? 

Therein lies the rub. 800k baht in a Thai bank account isn't, and never was, intended as proof of income. It's to show that you have enough money in Thailand to support yourself for the next 12 months. The word "income" isn't mentioned in TI regs when talking about this method.

 

Conversly, when talking about the 65k baht/month method it clearly states 65k baht monthly income.

 

I worry that TI will want to see that the 65k/month is clearly derived from income and not just drawn from some savings account.

[fforest1]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Therein lies the rub. 800k baht in a Thai bank account isn't, and never was, intended as proof of income. It's to show that you have enough money in Thailand to support yourself for the next 12 months. The word "income" isn't mentioned in TI regs when talking about this method.

 

Conversly, when talking about the 65k baht/month method it clearly states 65k baht monthly income.

 

I worry that TI will want to see that the 65k/month is clearly derived from income and not just drawn from some savings account.

Therein lies the rub. 800k baht in a Thai bank account isn't, and never was, intended as proof of income. It's to show that you have enough money in Thailand to support yourself for the next 12 months. The word "income" isn't mentioned in TI regs when talking about this method.

 

Well there is another loophole.....Cant have 800,000 in the bank <removed> living off 30 baht soup and happy hour beers now can we?.....To be a Quality expat according to many people on here you need to be spending at least 65,000 a month on top of the 800,000......

 

[soalbundy]

I think we are all worrying and speculating too much, the only ones being pedantic about the words 'verify' and 'certify' are, up til now, 4 embassies. This will be resolved, the Thai character is very much 'live and let live'. I am sure that TI never meant the word verify to be put on the golden scales of justice but the reaction of these embassies have boxed them into a 'save face corner'. The FO's of these embassies obviously have no idea of the Thai psyche. It will take a little time but I can't see any decent expats being kicked out because of 'verify'. Just my 10 cents on this.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, fforest1 said:

Therein lies the rub. 800k baht in a Thai bank account isn't, and never was, intended as proof of income. It's to show that you have enough money in Thailand to support yourself for the next 12 months. The word "income" isn't mentioned in TI regs when talking about this method.

 

Well there is another loophole.....Cant have 800,000 in the bank living off 30 baht soup and happy hour beers now can we?.....To be a Quality expat according to many people on here you need to be spending at least 65,000 a month on top of the 800,000......

 

I don't think anybody has said that. From my experience the <removed> as you call them, are the ones going via the 400/800k route as it costs them a mere 15-20k per annum for them to pay an agent to "create" the 800k for them.

 

I've never known a British citizen fraudulently obtain a visa extension via the 65k monthly income route.

 

So, far from being <removed> those using the 65k/month route are the ones who genuinely have the funds to support themselves. Unfortunately, these people are usually financially more savvy and have invested their capital in there own countries, typically buying property which they earn income from. Subsequently, they are asset rich, cash poor and may not easily be able to deposit 800k in a Thai bank account. Doesn't make them <removed>

 

In summation, the current situation we find ourselves in, is much more likely to result in people who genuinely contribute significant amounts to the Thai economy (I myself transfer and spend significantly more than 65k/month in Thailand) having difficulty meeting the requirements, whereas the so called <removed> remain unaffected.

[CharlieH]

Lets STOP these derogatory terms toward others please !

[xylophone]

7 hours ago, Robins said:

 

Xylophone, Don't you think you're being a little overly smug and negative? You have no way of knowing that the 800k will be the only method to  prove income.  Ironically having that money in the bank is not really evidence of 65000 Baht a month income, and not having it is not conclusive evidence you don't.     It's not denial to wonder if they will accept other forms of proof.  I'll use the embassy letter next renewal and have the 800K in the bank by the renewal after that, but if they are acting in good faith  and not just trying to get rid of as many foreigners as they can, they will be willing to look at other evidence such as pension statements and foreign bank accounts showing  a consistent pattern of Thai ATM withdrawals, if this is xenophobia they won't.  

I expect to make it, but I'm concerned about guys who have been here many years suddenly being deported when everything they own is here and they have nothing and no place in their home country to go home to.    

Wonder how many 70 year old plus pensioners with nothing to go home to will be jumping off roofs in Pattaya if you are right? 

Well, I'm sorry that you read my post that way as it was not meant to come over as "overly smug and negative" as I was merely stating the facts as they stand now/at this present time according to TI and some embassies. 

 

I sincerely hope that they do come up with another method to prove income for the sake of many out there who cannot afford the 800 K lump sum, however speculation as to what they will and won't do is far too rife, because as we all know they (TI) will do whatever they want to do, and at the moment it stands as I said in my post, and that was merely my point.

[sniggie]

23 hours ago, dabhand said:

Concerning the BE letter to New beginnings and, in particular, the comment about ensuring that affected customers are made aware of the Income Letter changes.

Yes, updating the various social network sources (including TV and the like) is fine and dandy but even if only one of their 3,000 'affected customers' is not so connected it will be a 100% fail for that individual.

 

Given that the BE has details of the 3,000 (either email or, as a minimum, addresses) why have they not made the effort to make direct contact with every one they know is likely to require this particular service in the future. The BE has had upwards of six months to organise such an info shot and for this not to happen is beyond the pale.

 

It would be absolutely no surprise if reports come through in the early part of next year of a few 'affected customers' being at their wits end because they were not aware of such changes. Particularly the more elderly individuals who are not particularly internet literate and are set up to contact the BE shortly before their extension expires, because that is always how they have done it.

 

Will the BE really care if such an event happens? Will they ****!!

I agree with you that the British Embassy is very unlikely to give any further support to any of it's citizens facing dire choices next year. However (and I accept that there will be those who will jump on me for saying this) I have always felt that Thailand Immigration have behaved fairly in dealing with long stay visitors. The BE has thrown the ball into TI's court.  There are those pessimists that suggest that TI is collectively rubbing it's hands together at the thought of throwing some falangs out but I believe that, when push comes to shove, they will try to act fairly over the next seven or eight months with or without embassy support. 

[Robins]

^  Yes, Immigration has always been reasonable and polite, and I've always gone dressed in a respectful manner.

 

I'll be straight forward; I have a Calpers Pension that converts to 129,000 Baht a month, just short of twice the 65000 Baht requirement and American bank statements showing consistent withdrawals of that much money every month from Thai bank ATM machines (any bank whose atm was convenient) to prove it among many other things and can get more proof if needed.   I've lived very well the last 10 years.

 

Calpers absolutely will not deposit a pension into a foreign bank account ( I tried because I wanted to avoid the ATM charges and the 1% fee Visa debit cards charge for foreign transactions) so for 10 years I've used my ATM card from my American bank to get cash, all of which has gone through a Thai bank ATM.  

I have no savings, at 60 years old what the hell do I have to save for?   I've told my family absolutely not to waste money repatriating my body if I die here. 

 

I bring about 1,400,000 Baht a year into Thailand.  There has to be others like me.  

 

It remains to be seen how reasonable they will be in accepting other forms of proof of income such as those I've outlined above.  If they do, this is a good faith effort to get rid of the losers, if they don't then it's xenophobia or a desire to get rid of as many non-Asians as possible.

 

Now I'm living like shit desperately (spending as little as possible) trying to build up 800,000 Baht to park in a non-interest bearing Thai bank account just in case, and it may not even be necessary.    Kind of an silly situation.

 

Talk about stress, my dogs, car, motorcycles and everything I own are here.  What happens if some clown from Immigration decides to be unreasonable?  

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, Robins said:

Talk about stress, my dogs, car, motorcycles and everything I own are here.  What happens if some clown from Immigration decides to be unreasonable?  

Edited 3 hours ago by Robins

''Some clown from immigration........''

Perhaps if your attitude changed you would have less stress, the manner in which you perceive life is the way it will manifest. Trouble is just a thought, if you see a situation as troublesome then that is what it will be, situations are neutral, the mind makes trouble out of it. Relax, we don't know what will happen, I doubt that TI will start throwing out thousands of law abiding people who have enough income, have patience.

[marcusarelus]

3 hours ago, Robins said:

^  Yes, Immigration has always been reasonable and polite, and I've always gone dressed in a respectful manner.

 

I'll be straight forward; I have a Calpers Pension that converts to 129,000 Baht a month, just short of twice the 65000 Baht requirement and American bank statements showing consistent withdrawals of that much money every month from Thai bank ATM machines (any bank whose atm was convenient) to prove it among many other things and can get more proof if needed.   I've lived very well the last 10 years.

 

Calpers absolutely will not deposit a pension into a foreign bank account ( I tried because I wanted to avoid the ATM charges and the 1% fee Visa debit cards charge for foreign transactions) so for 10 years I've used my ATM card from my American bank to get cash, all of which has gone through a Thai bank ATM.  

I have no savings, at 60 years old what the hell do I have to save for?   I've told my family absolutely not to waste money repatriating my body if I die here. 

 

I bring about 1,400,000 Baht a year into Thailand.  There has to be others like me.  

 

It remains to be seen how reasonable they will be in accepting other forms of proof of income such as those I've outlined above.  If they do, this is a good faith effort to get rid of the losers, if they don't then it's xenophobia or a desire to get rid of as many non-Asians as possible.

 

Now I'm living like shit desperately (spending as little as possible) trying to build up 800,000 Baht to park in a non-interest bearing Thai bank account just in case, and it may not even be necessary.    Kind of an silly situation.

 

Talk about stress, my dogs, car, motorcycles and everything I own are here.  What happens if some clown from Immigration decides to be unreasonable?  

It's like getting a divorce.  I put everything I own into the family for 20 years and then lost it all.  I moved to Thailand.  But you can't really do that if you are here.  Maybe Cambodia and visit across the border at Surin. 

[soalbundy]

22 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

It's like getting a divorce.  I put everything I own into the family for 20 years and then lost it all.  I moved to Thailand.  But you can't really do that if you are here.  Maybe Cambodia and visit across the border at Surin. 

at last, positive thinking, new experiences, but I doubt it will come to that.

[Robins]

On 11/14/2018 at 6:17 PM, Sheryl said:

Can you not have your pension deposited into home country account and just transfer money to your Thai account (bank transfer or Transferwise)? Monthly or lump sum 3 months in advance as you prefer?

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Transferring money out of America is not as easy as it once was, particularly after the new laws passed after 9-11 allegedly to fight terrorists, drug lords and tax evaders.   It's damn hard to transfer money out of America these days and there are multiple laws restricting or affecting it, that's why it's so expensive.   Hell I don't even know, but I doubt if any American bank is going to be willing to serve as a conduit for money received on the first of the month and transferred to Thailand the same day unless they get paid very well. 

This is kind of the perfect storm.  Thanks for your input.  

[Robins]

On 11/21/2018 at 3:49 PM, soalbundy said:

''Some clown from immigration........''

Perhaps if your attitude changed you would have less stress, the manner in which you perceive life is the way it will manifest. Trouble is just a thought, if you see a situation as troublesome then that is what it will be, situations are neutral, the mind makes trouble out of it. Relax, we don't know what will happen, I doubt that TI will start throwing out thousands of law abiding people who have enough income, have patience.

I'm respectful to them while I'm there, wear a dress shirt and dress pants and generally think quite highly of them  Unfortunately TIT and every office and sometimes each employee makes up his or her own rules, and unlike America there are no avenues for appeal or recourse if you are refused.  

Pattaya in particular (not surprisingly) is a somewhat unfriendly and unpredictable office.  The last couple of years they've had some obnoxious power crazed person of questionable gender who goes out of his or her way to be as rude and unreasonable as possible.  The older Officer who actually approves the extensions is quite reasonable and has been there for years. 

[sambum]

20 minutes ago, Robins said:

I'm respectful to them while I'm there, wear a dress shirt and dress pants and generally think quite highly of them  Unfortunately TIT and every office and sometimes each employee makes up his or her own rules, and unlike America there are no avenues for appeal or recourse if you are refused.  

Pattaya in particular (not surprisingly) is a somewhat unfriendly and unpredictable office.  The last couple of years they've had some obnoxious power crazed person of questionable gender who goes out of his or her way to be as rude and unreasonable as possible.  The older Officer who actually approves the extensions is quite reasonable and has been there for years. 

I think every TI office has one of the former!

[soalbundy]

6 hours ago, Robins said:

I'm respectful to them while I'm there, wear a dress shirt and dress pants and generally think quite highly of them  Unfortunately TIT and every office and sometimes each employee makes up his or her own rules, and unlike America there are no avenues for appeal or recourse if you are refused.  

Pattaya in particular (not surprisingly) is a somewhat unfriendly and unpredictable office.  The last couple of years they've had some obnoxious power crazed person of questionable gender who goes out of his or her way to be as rude and unreasonable as possible.  The older Officer who actually approves the extensions is quite reasonable and has been there for years. 

I am probably spoilt in Surin IO which is small and friendly. I realize that coming into contact with an officer having a bad hair day can be stressful but the point of my post was not to live in the future of 'what if' getting stressed out by something which hasn't happened. The mind is an expert at making problems, problems are just thoughts, if you don't feed them with belief they have no power. You are doing all you can to mitigate the different situations that could arise, you can do no more, hence worrying is pointless, it becomes easier when you surrender to life and admit we are never in control and can only play the hand dealt to us as best we can.

[Robins]

Something that hasn't been said yet is that my reaction to these changes has now gone from shock to profound anger.  (Yes I know that will do no good but still it's justified.)  

 

President Trump is catching a lot of justified criticism for the horrible exportation of Mexican-Americans many of which have been in the USA for many years. The difference is that in all these cases those persons entered the US illegally in the first place. (though I wish the deportations would stop) 

 

Thailand is now getting ready to expel people who settled here legally under one set of rules, and now suddenly those rules are being arbitrarily changed.  That's far worse since most gave up their homes and lives in their home country and have contributed money to Thailand for years.  Their detrimental reliance on Thailand will be crushing to many of them.  I expect the roof tops of Pattaya will be raining old men next year when the full impact of this thing hits.  

 

They could easily have changed the rules for first time retirement applicants and grandfathered in those who came in under the old rules.  

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Robins said:

Something that hasn't been said yet is that my reaction to these changes has now gone from shock to profound anger.  (Yes I know that will do no good but still it's justified.)  

 

President Trump is catching a lot of justified criticism for the horrible exportation of Mexican-Americans many of which have been in the USA for many years. The difference is that in all these cases those persons entered the US illegally in the first place. (though I wish the deportations would stop) 

 

Thailand is now getting ready to expel people who settled here legally under one set of rules, and now suddenly those rules are being suddenly and arbitrarily changed.  That's far worse since most gave up their homes and lives in their home country and have contributed money to Thailand for years.  Their detrimental reliance on Thailand will be crushing to many of them.  I expect the roof tops of Pattaya will be raining old men next year when the full impact of this thing hits.  

 

They could easily have changed the rules for first time retirement applicants and grandfathered in those who came in under the old rules.  

 

 

 

 

A bit over dramatic but bottom line I think you're right. This policy change with income based applications which is mostly going to hit people that actually DO have the required income (or can manage the combo method instead) is going to have real life tragic consequences for a significant number of people. Some of that we will see in Thailand, and some will be hidden when people return to home countries that they no longer have any real connections to. 

 

I don't think there is a direct parallel between people fleeing horrible situations in Central America and people retiring in Thailand on non-immigrant visas though. There are some similarities, but mostly not. 

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, Robins said:

Something that hasn't been said yet is that my reaction to these changes has now gone from shock to profound anger.  (Yes I know that will do no good but still it's justified.)  

 

President Trump is catching a lot of justified criticism for the horrible exportation of Mexican-Americans many of which have been in the USA for many years. The difference is that in all these cases those persons entered the US illegally in the first place. (though I wish the deportations would stop) 

 

Thailand is now getting ready to expel people who settled here legally under one set of rules, and now suddenly those rules are being arbitrarily changed.  That's far worse since most gave up their homes and lives in their home country and have contributed money to Thailand for years.  Their detrimental reliance on Thailand will be crushing to many of them.  I expect the roof tops of Pattaya will be raining old men next year when the full impact of this thing hits.  

 

They could easily have changed the rules for first time retirement applicants and grandfathered in those who came in under the old rules.  

 

 

 

 

You are giving power to thoughts by believing the mind again. Where does it say that the IO is preparing to expel people ? Who changed the status quo ? the 4 embassies who threw a hissy fit over the word 'verify', if that was so important then the IO's would refuse all embassy letters immediately, other embassies seem unconcerned and continue to issue letters 'certifying' documents, many saying they will continue doing so without being chastised by TI. Stop the panic, in a few months time this will be sorted.

[sambum]

47 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

You are giving power to thoughts by believing the mind again. Where does it say that the IO is preparing to expel people ? Who changed the status quo ? the 4 embassies who threw a hissy fit over the word 'verify', if that was so important then the IO's would refuse all embassy letters immediately, other embassies seem unconcerned and continue to issue letters 'certifying' documents, many saying they will continue doing so without being chastised by TI. Stop the panic, in a few months time this will be sorted.

I believe (and hope!) so!

[Robins]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

You are giving power to thoughts by believing the mind again. Where does it say that the IO is preparing to expel people ? Who changed the status quo ? the 4 embassies who threw a hissy fit over the word 'verify', if that was so important then the IO's would refuse all embassy letters immediately, other embassies seem unconcerned and continue to issue letters 'certifying' documents, many saying they will continue doing so without being chastised by TI. Stop the panic, in a few months time this will be sorted.

Hope you are right.  Thank you for the comment. 

[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, Robins said:

// Thailand is now getting ready to expel people who settled here legally under one set of rules, and now suddenly those rules are being arbitrarily changed.

// They could easily have changed the rules for first time retirement applicants and grandfathered in those who came in under the old rules.  

Again, no rule changed by TI. The requirement for "letter verifying the income" is nothing new but seems to have been forgotten or slowly ignored by some embassies, so TI reminded them of this important point. (IMHO)

 

- Now most embassies changed nothing because they already were "verifying the income", or at least consider they were doing so.

- A few embassies have adapted, like he Swiss Embassy that now required the pension provider to send confirmation of pension directly to Bangkok embassy... (Pension Statement CH)

- Four embassies refused to adapt and let their citizen solve themselves this problem... 

[Robins]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Again, no rule changed by TI. The requirement for "letter verifying the income" is nothing new but seems to have been forgotten or slowly ignored by some embassies, so TI reminded them of this important point. (IMHO)

 

- Now most embassies changed nothing because they already were "verifying the income", or at least consider they were doing so.

- A few embassies have adapted, like he Swiss Embassy that now required the pension provider to send confirmation of pension directly to Bangkok embassy... (Pension Statement CH)

- Four embassies refused to adapt and let their citizen solve themselves this problem... 

No rule changed by Thai Immigration (who still require an income verification letter) and at least 4 major embassies comprising the vast majority of expats who will no longer issue the required income letter.  That almost certainly means bye bye Thailand unless something changes soon, and there is no indication it will.  

Great, an individual citizen has a real chance of solving an inconsistency like this with the caring and understanding people at Immigration.  

Optimism is one thing buy willful blindness is another, and the "few embassies" comment was downright blind to the major countries they were.