Anger Over Proposed Change To R_ape Laws

[george]

WOMEN'S RIGHTS

Anger over proposed change to r_ape laws

Amendment implies it is acceptable for men to force sex on wives, activists say

BANGKOK: -- After waging a long fight to legally protect wives from being raped by their husbands, women's rights activists yesterday expressed exasperation that the latest move to amend criminal codes still failed to address their point.

According to the latest proposed amendment, "an individual who rapes another person who is not his/her husband or wife has committed a crime".

Current laws say it is a crime for a man to rape a woman who is not his wife. Female activists believe the proposed new wording implies that rapes between husband and wife are acceptable.

"At the same time, it's an attempt to create equality between genders in a destructive way," said Matalak Or-rungroj, a law academic from Thammasat University.

Activists have long requested that the phrase "who is not his wife" be cut out in order to make it an offence for a man to rape his wife.

"Women activists have been working for a long time for amendment, but absolutely not in this way," said Waraporn Chamsanit, a human rights lecturer at Mahidol University.

Instead of giving protection to the wife who is raped by her husband, the proposed amendment lets women be easily slandered by men as rapists, Waraporn said.

Usa Lertsrisantad, an official from the Women's Foundation, said the foundation had helped women in many cases where husbands used violence to force them to have sex against their will. The wives were unable to file charges against their husbands, as the law does not make it a crime.

Research has found that 30 per cent of wives admit to experiencing forced sex from their husbands.

"In some cases, a wife refused to sleep with her husband because he was infected with HIV, but he forced her to have sex and no one could help her," she said.

A law amendment to forbid a husband from raping his wife would help eradicate the male attitude that "men own their women", she said.

"Kanya", a victim of domestic violence, said there were many reasons why a wife would not want to sleep with her husband. She has been forced to sleep with her husband in the daytime and at places not so private, sometimes before the eyes of their one-year-old son.

"Whenever I try to refuse, he always says, 'Why not? I am your husband'," she said. "It's impossible to refuse without the support of the law."

National Legislative Assembly (NLA) member Wallop Tangkhananurak said the phrasing of the proposed amendment was not correct, as the real intention was to forbid rape in all cases, irrespective of the victims' age and gender.

"The NLA will talk about the issue again on Thursday and all kinds of rapes would be considered as offences without exception for litigants who are husband and wife."

Taweekiet Meenakanit, a law academic at Thammasat University, said it was "abnormal logic" to allow a man to file a rape charge against a woman.

"I can predict one day we will find a case of a bad man joining with a bad police officer to slander a women as a rapist," he said.

Taweekiet disagrees with the activists' proposal to make it a crime for a husband to rape his wife.

"Many wives in this country still have to depend on their husbands. They might be upset by their husbands but if asked whether they want to divorce or put their husband in jail, they would say 'no'."

The man might take revenge on his wife after being released.

Taweekiet said a husband should be held as committing a crime if he forced his wife to have sex when he had a contagious disease, when his wife was ill or when the couple had been ordered to live separately.

-- The Nation 2007-02-13

[Mai Krap]

One step forward and five steps backwards!

[cdnvic]

The culture is slanted enough against women without this ridiculous law. Here's hoping saner heads prevail and the legislation gets put in the shredder where it belongs.

Edited February 14, 2007 by cdnvic

[Old Man River]

Once again, you have the current government meddling in issues it knows nothing about instead of getting on with the task at hand.

[hammered]

Once again, you have the current government meddling in issues it knows nothing about instead of getting on with the task at hand.

It really does make one wonder why they would want to meddle in controversies that they could eassily leave to the next elected government. Surely they have enough controversial things to be getting on with without adding to them.

[jasreeve17]

This is very sad. The lack of intellect that these law-makers exhibit is astounding. People pretend to have high social values and morals, then come out with this oppressive anti-social and degrading idea / proposal.

If rape is a crime, then when should it be legal - never. It's very easy to correctly amend this law if you desire to do so.

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[MarkBKK]

There's something missing from this thread.

Hmmmm.

Oh yes!

Where are all the posters saying things like ''Well if you don't like it go home!'', ''We're only guests here you know'' and ''How dare you criticise the Kingdom, it's not your country!''

Funny how all those voices do actually give it a rest every now and then. Or are they just hypocrites?

[mexxx]

its the grayest area of all in a marriage. men & women in marriage are as 1. afterall, is this not the meaning of marriage. if you do not want to be as 1, then dont waste everyones time getting married.

both parties are at their most vulnerable when in marriage & both parties can exploit this vulnerability to spite the other. on balance, the law favors the married woman in most countries.

the over stretched police resourses used to investigate claims of an alleged criminal sexual nature are also vulnerable to being exploited by spiteful married people.

i see this law as a way for an already used & abused justice system to somehow address these vulnerabilities.

[cdnvic]

its the grayest area of all in a marriage. men & women in marriage are as 1. afterall, is this not the meaning of marriage. if you do not want to be as 1, then dont waste everyones time getting married.

both parties are at their most vulnerable when in marriage & both parties can exploit this vulnerability to spite the other. on balance, the law favors the married woman in most countries.

the over stretched police resourses used to investigate claims of an alleged criminal sexual nature are also vulnerable to being exploited by spiteful married people.

i see this law as a way for an already used & abused justice system to somehow address these vulnerabilities.

Of course, lets make raping your wife legal so the police aren't burdened by a few phoney claims.

Anyone who has to resort to raping their wife must be an absolute failure as a man.

Edited February 16, 2007 by cdnvic

[Master of the court]

Once again, you have the current government meddling in issues it knows nothing about instead of getting on with the task at hand.

[Lithobid]

There's something missing from this thread.

Hmmmm.

Oh yes!

Where are all the posters saying things like ''Well if you don't like it go home!'', ''We're only guests here you know'' and ''How dare you criticise the Kingdom, it's not your country!''

Funny how all those voices do actually give it a rest every now and then. Or are they just hypocrites?

I'll pipe up on this one. If you don't like it, go home. Yes that's right, and don't even think of dawdling in the duty free shops. Go directly home.

[Jai Dee]

Update: Child rape loophole 'must be closed'

The National Legislative Assembly (NLA) has been praised for moving to protect women from marital rape, but it was urged yesterday to stop protecting sexual abusers who are allowed by law to marry child victims.

The Network to Stop Sexual Violence held a seminar yesterday on "Rape in the family: Time for change" to voice concern about the NLA's proposed amendments to sexual offence laws in the Penal Code's sections 276 and 277.

Nattaya Boonpakdee, of the Women's Health Advocacy Foundation, said the network was please with the NLA's efforts to remove sexual prejudice against women.

The rape law saw a wife as her husband's asset. It served a social value that a wife has a duty to satisfy her husband's sexual desire whenever he wanted, she said.

Marital rape forced many women to have abortions and many were infected with HIV from their husbands, she added.

According to the survey "Domestic Violence Against Women", 30 per cent of women facing marital rape could not get legal protection because section 276 protected only women "who were not the [perpetrator's] wife", said Assoc Prof Kritaya Archavanitkul of Mahidol University's Institute for Population and Social Research (IPSR).

Jadet Chaowilai, of the Friends of Women Foundation, said many victims of marital rape sought help from the foundation but there was no way to help them - because section 276 did not protect wives.

The NLA next week would decide whether to delete the words "who is not the wife" from the section to help protect women from marital rape, he said.

Section 276 states: "Whoever has sexual intercourse with a women, who is not his wife, against her will, by threat by any means whatsoever, by committing any act of violence, by taking advantage of the women being in the condition of inability to resist, or by causing the women to mistake him for another person, shall be punished with imprisonment of four to 20 years and fined Bt8,000 to Bt40,000."

While welcoming the amendment of section 276, the network was concerned that section 277 still allows rapists to escape punishment if they marry a child victim.

The section states that if an offender sexually offends against a child over 13 years but not over 15, with her (or his) consent the court would allow them to marry and the offender would not be punished.

If the Court grants permission for them to marry while the offender is incarcerated for the offence, he would be released.

Anjana Suvarnananda, of the Anjaree Group, said children under 15 were not mature enough to marry. The law, which offered an offender a chance to escape punishment, was just a licence to rape.

"It violates all humanitarian principles," she said, adding that some ethnic societies that allow child marriage were looking to change this tradition.

Nattaya said marriage was still proposed as a solution in the amendment because some NLA members were concerned that punishment could violate ethnic traditions in which youngsters could marry.

"But these ethnic societies are discussing this tradition. Many young couples commit suicide because they fail to adjust to the jump from child to adult through marriage.

"Ethnic societies are discussing a change for the better," Nattaya said.

Stop Sexual Violence is a network of organisations that support changes in Thailand's rape law.

Yesterday it submitted an open letter to the NLA urging members to consider amending the law.

Source: The Nation - 03 May 2007

[Dakhar]

I am getting the notion here that the wife is legally obligated to have sex with the husband.

If this is the case, I guess I need to call the police and file a report!

No seriously folks, some wife's out there just shut down. As someone said before it would be funny if were not so sad.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_an...icle1543822.ece

I am not saying rape is the sollution. The sad thing is a lot of times there is not sollution.

Marriage.... UHHH

[lambada]

If my Thai g/f has sex with me while I am asleep, is that rape? It's one of her hobbies

[sbk]

I, personally, don't see this is a humorous moment. But then maybe some people find the idea of an HIV infected husband forcing himself on his wife or a child rapist being allowed to marry his victim to avoid punishment funny.

[sonnyJ]

If my Thai g/f has sex with me while I am asleep, is that rape? It's one of her hobbies

As I have understood the law, it is perfectly legal for the wife to rape husband if legally married. This is one point in the original article. So this is a sad attempt for equality. Why cannot it be it's a crime to rape anyone? So again it just doen't work in western way. Equality in Thailand's society is impossible. Let's push more for the ancient traditional laws..

[Jai Dee]

Activists carry signs calling for changes to the rape law to help end sexual violence against women, children and homosexuals. Other demonstrators submitted a letter to National Legislative Assembly member Prayong Ronnarong at Government House yesterday.

Source: The Nation - 03 May 2007

[highdiver]

There's something missing from this thread.

Hmmmm.

Oh yes!

Where are all the posters saying things like ''Well if you don't like it go home!'', ''We're only guests here you know'' and ''How dare you criticise the Kingdom, it's not your country!''

Funny how all those voices do actually give it a rest every now and then. Or are they just hypocrites?

ok ok since you are so looking for it.

then please do go home and save us your Thai bashing remarks from what is a very serious debate.

Thailand is taking steps to change the law that is undoubtadly very wrong and discriminates women.

I belive that law makers need to state a law that is clear and definite in order to avoid some of the problems we see in many other countries regarding this issue.

what is a rape?? it sounds like a dumb question but try and google "defining rape" and see how many answer you get.

the legal definition is also a problem as if law makers do not write it down in full text they leave room for interpetations...

this is a leagal issue that needs to be adressed and I fully support women that are now lobbying to influence law makers about this is issue.

Hopefullt some other countries will learn from this process and adopt a very hard line on rape.

[Dakhar]

I hate to be niave here, but how does one go about rapeing their wife in the first place? Is it an anger agression thing? For me, I have too much pride etc. If the wifey no wanty, I for sure don't wanty, with her at least.

So I guess it goes back to culture. Maybe westerners take rejection from their spouse as just that, rejection 100%.... but here in the land of no logic, men take it as an invite, not as an insult. I don't know, I can't make sense of it.

Hate to add further insult, but as others mentioned, I think it would be best to focus on getting this country back on track, instead of continious meandering.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Dakhar

[November Rain]

I hate to be niave here, but how does one go about rapeing their wife in the first place? Is it an anger agression thing? For me, I have too much pride etc. If the wifey no wanty, I for sure don't wanty, with her at least.

So I guess it goes back to culture. Maybe westerners take rejection from their spouse as just that, rejection 100%.... but here in the land of no logic, men take it as an invite, not as an insult. I don't know, I can't make sense of it.

Hate to add further insult, but as others mentioned, I think it would be best to focus on getting this country back on track, instead of continious meandering.

Are you joking with that remark (in bold)? I was raped by a boyfriend in my early 20's. I was extremely sick at the time with a virus, suffering blackouts, vomiting, weakness & pain & he still demanded his "rights". He didn't use violence, he didn't need to, I was too weak to fight back, but he disregarded my wants, my feelings & my physical discomfort, my illness & my refusal in order to gain some satisfaction for himself. On more than one occasion. Yes, I do consider that rape.

I'm British, he is British. This happened in UK. Culture has very little to do with it. Some men have the impression that their wants override everything else. Rape does happen in relationships. It does happen in marriage. It needs to be made illegal. It still might not get reported. I didn't report it. But rape victims need to have the law behind them , so they have the knowledge they can prosecute.

[Dakhar]

Well the topic was in regards to a marital relationship.

What happened to you was not right, I don't condone it and I have no words to make it better. You did not even need to justify your reasons for not wanting to give into sex. "ill etc etc" it is your body you do as you please.

As you say rape can happen in a marriage or in a relationship.... but I question the validity of the relationship, married or not, if a guy has to rape a woman for sex... Is that really a relationship? Was there ever one to begin with? I guess I generalized and figured most guys (western) are like me, and when rejected they feel hurt and would rather walk away than live with the memory of rapeing the woman he suposedly loved. Why I generalized it as a culture thing, is because western countries (I hope) do not have laws on the books makeing it legal to rape your spouse!?

Why a woman would reject her husband under normal circumstances is beyond my understanding, but I am sure there are plenty of women out there that have their reasons.

Either way you slice it, it is a difficult topic to talk about without getting emotions high. So most couples do not even address it at all.... they just lock it away and move on for whatever reasons. It is called a sexless mariage, and it does exsist.

[Plus]

How come the Bangkok Post had an exactly opposite coverage of the same law and the same rally???

"Women hail proposed rape law amendments

A women's rights coalition has presented a letter to the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) hailing its proposed amendments to the law against rape...."

And

"COMMENTARY

Dealing with rape, justly

We are now one step closer to making what marital rape should be - a punishable crime."

The last piece written by a woman.

[Dakhar]

I was too weak to fight back, but he disregarded my wants, my feelings & my physical discomfort, my illness & my refusal in order to gain some satisfaction for himself. On more than one occasion.

On more than one occasion? Once would be enough for me to get out of that "relationship." But I guess rape falls under the category of abuse, in this situation.... and there are countless casses of people staying in abusive relationships.

Heck, even a sexless mariage, I would call that a form of abuse, emotional etc. and folks stay in that type of relationship.

Interesting quandry.

[November Rain]

I was too weak to fight back, but he disregarded my wants, my feelings & my physical discomfort, my illness & my refusal in order to gain some satisfaction for himself. On more than one occasion.

On more than one occasion? Once would be enough for me to get out of that "relationship." But I guess rape falls under the category of abuse, in this situation.... and there are countless casses of people staying in abusive relationships.

Heck, even a sexless mariage, I would call that a form of abuse, emotional etc. and folks stay in that type of relationship.

Interesting quandry.

Who said I stayed? I was ill. When I recovered I jacked in my career (yes, career!) dumped him & moved to Asia.

[Dakhar]

Multiple occasion implied to me, that you stayed.

You sound bitter here. "Career" as if men question a woman can have one. Hope things work out for you.

[MarcHolt]

I am getting the notion here that the wife is legally obligated to have sex with the husband.

If this is the case, I guess I need to call the police and file a report!

No seriously folks, some wife's out there just shut down. As someone said before it would be funny if were not so sad.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_an...icle1543822.ece

I am not saying rape is the sollution. The sad thing is a lot of times there is not sollution.

Marriage.... UHHH

Come on. If the wife is not meeting her husband's needs there is no need for rape. There are so many women available for a small fee it's hard to understand why rape is even an issue in Thailand. Beats the hel_l out of me!

Oy! What sort of idiot censored me?

Sheesh! Can't you stand the thought of a little strong language?

Edited May 4, 2007 by MarcHolt

[Dakhar]

Ah yes, the hire out concept.

Sounds great, until you get an STD (HIV), pass that on to your wife, ultimatley killing her and yourself, leaving your child behind etc etc.

Or if you get lucky, no diseases, just the wife finding out that you have been cheating on her... then she files for divorce and takes you for everything you have, have had, and ever will have.

a quandry

Edited May 4, 2007 by Dakhar

[MarcHolt]

Ah yes, the hire out concept.

Sounds great, until you get an STD (HIV), pass that on to your wife, ultimatley killing her and yourself, leaving your child behind etc etc.

Or if you get lucky, no diseases, just the wife finding out that you have been cheating on her... then she files for divorce and takes you for everything you have, have had, and ever will have.

a quandry

This is Thailand, not the man-hating West where women get everything in a divorce. Here, the law stipulates we share 50%.

And haven't you ever heard of condoms? Most men here have. You won't find many disease ridden prostitutes in Patpong, Cowboy or Nana. You will find them in the many Thai brothels peppered around the country, particularly where truck drivers and fishermen go.

You haven't lived here long have you? Still sticking your nose in the air because men prefer to pay for some fun, instead of going out with you?

You are showing your Western prejudices. But men who come here have had enough of that lousy attitude. They stay here because the Thais don't have your Protestant/Catholic hangups. Sex is a beautiful thing, and it is also a lot of fun. Perhaps you have forgotten that?

Besides, isn't it better for a man to pay for sex than to rape his wife? Married women are often too busy, too tired, or too anything to indulge in sex as often as husbands need. Going out and paying for it makes much better sense doesn't it?

Edited May 4, 2007 by MarcHolt

[Dakhar]

Ah yes, the hire out concept.

Sounds great, until you get an STD (HIV), pass that on to your wife, ultimatley killing her and yourself, leaving your child behind etc etc.

Or if you get lucky, no diseases, just the wife finding out that you have been cheating on her... then she files for divorce and takes you for everything you have, have had, and ever will have.

a quandry

This is Thailand, not the man-hating West where women get everything in a divorce. Here, the law stipulates we share 50%.

And haven't you ever heard of condoms? Most men here have. You won't find many disease ridden prostitutes in Patpong, Cowboy or Nana. You will find them in the many Thai brothels peppered around the country, particularly where truck drivers and fishermen go.

You are showing your Western prejudices. But men who come here have had enough of that lousy attitude. They stay here because the Thais don't have your Protestant/Catholic hangups. Sex is a beautiful thing, and it is also a lot of fun. Perhaps you have forgotten that?

Besides, isn't it better for a man to pay for sex than to rape his wife? Married women are often too busy, too tired, or too anything to indulge in sex as often as husbands need. Going out and paying for it makes much better sense doesn't it?

You got me pegged pretty wrong! Yes I have heard of condoms, but they sure don't protect for the entire sexual encounter. Which makes it pretty much a dull activitiy when you have to eleminate so many other activities from the menu. Oh well. I also have heard of and experienced broken condoms. Maybe it is a size issue... I don't know.

You haven't lived here long have you? Still sticking your nose in the air because men prefer to pay for some fun, instead of going out with you?

Well, I have been here over a year, my nose is not up in the air, and I am not upset men prefer to pay for some fun, instead of going out with me.... I am a heterosexual male... so No trust me I am not disapointed at all! If anything I am envious of you single guys with little regard to STDs

Yes Thailand has a better divorce system for males than the west, so I have been told. But even at 50% that is a big loss for many.

Oh I love sex, sure enough do, I honestly do not get enough of it. I am nost sure if it is a Christian cultural up-bringing or not. But I do have a hang up with sex & emotional attachment. In other words, if I have sex with someone.... I get attached emotionally. Maybe that is a down fall. To say that I am natuarally manogamus, no I would't say that. I just get emotionally attached.... that is the end of it. I find those that can have sex and be emotionally detached fasccinating more than anything. Not being judgemental at all. Fact is if I had the ability to sleep around without getting attached, my life would probably be a lot better off. (Excluding contracting STD's)

I have no negative thoughts about those that engage in the sex industry. Although I just wonder about the long term psychological effects it can have for the participants....

Truth is I could sit back and talk about this subject for days... so rather than bore you I will not.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Dakhar

[Jai Dee]

Marital rape isn't a right

A milestone in the liberation of women goes before the National Assembly today

Members of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) will decide today whether to eradicate "marital rape" from the law books - after more than half a century of being legitimised.

Amendments to the rape law will mark another historic page in the struggle by Thai women for their right to refuse sex to be legally recognised. It's been a long struggle, one that has its roots in a fight for rights 142 years ago during the reign of King Mongkut.

Two women - Amdaeng Maun and Amdaeng Chan, who lived during the reign of King Mongkut (King Rama IV) - won battles against an old law that saw women as a possession of their parents and husbands.

Amdaeng Maun filed a petition to King Mongkut, accusing her parents of forcing her to marry a man she didn't want to, while Amdaeng Chan petitioned the King that her husband sold her to be a slave without her consent.

Amdaeng Maun was 21 years old when her parents wanted her to marry Nai Phu. When she refused, her parents beat her and allowed Nai Phu to forcibly take her to his house. But Amdaeng Maun resisted and would not accept being forced to live with Nai Phu. She escaped from his house and returned to her parents, but they beat her and allowed Nai Phu to drag her back to his house again. Amdaneg Maun later escaped and went to live with Nai Rid, the man she loved, and then filed her petition to the King.

Learning of the plight of the two women, King Mongkut made an historic judgement that released Thai women from the constrict of prevailing social values and the old law against women's rights.

The King announced that Amdaeng Maun had the right to choose her husband, and Amdaeng Chan had the right over her body and her husband couldn't sell her without her consent.

A provision in the husband-wife law used from Ayutthaya to the early Rattanakosin period allowed a husband to "whip" his wife and gave husbands the right to give away or sell his wife to pay debts.

But King Mongkut criticised as unjust the law that saw a wife as her husband's possession and suggested in 1967 that it be amended.

"This law, once examined, is as if women are like water buffaloes while men are human, which is unjust and should be abolished," the King stated. Husbands have not been allowed to sell their wives without their consent ever since.

A century on, and Thai women are fighting another odious battle over the right to their bodies. Marital rape has not been treated as a criminal offence for more than 50 years.

One person who is desperate to see the law changed is Kanya Sripan, who alleges she has been the victim of "marital rape" for years. "When I tell the police that I have been raped by my husband they ask me to show my divorce paper," Kanya said.

But her "abusive" husband refuses to allow a divorce. He allegedly forces her to have sex with him, saying he has the right to do so - because he is her husband.

The rape law doesn't protect wives from being raped by their husbands and that has led to additional problems for women in the form of abortions, HIV infection and mental illness.

Section 276 states: Whoever has sexual intercourse with a woman, who is not his wife, against her will, by threatening by any means whatsoever, by doing any act of violence, by taking advantage of the woman being in the condition of inability to resist, or by causing the woman to mistake him for the other person, shall be punished with imprisonment of four to twenty years and a fine of Bt8,000 to Bt40,000.

The women's movement has fought for several decades to delete the words "who is not his wife" from section 276 of the Penal Code, but they have met a brick wall in Parliament.

Thailand acceded to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) in 1985, but many people, especially those responsible for law amendments, still believe it is a wife's duty to serve her husband's sexual needs even without her consent.

"We aren't saying that most husbands are bad. We are saying that bad husbands must be punished," says Anjana Suvarnananda, a key member of the Network to Stop Sexual Violence, which is fighting to change the rape law.

"Sexual intercourse should be a happy thing for both sides, not just one person threatening the other."

Source: The Nation - 09 May 2007