Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Pib said:

It just means people that have a "Thailand address on file" with SSA are having their payment sent to one of many U.S. banks primarily using the ACH system...one of which is via/thru the Bangkok Bank "New York" branch which is a US licensed bank.

How did you come to that conclusion.

I think they are only using records of the transfers done and Bangkok Bank New York would be coded as being a branch of a Thai bank.

I think it could well be a correct number of those using Bangkok Bank.

[mogandave]

Why shouldn't we be able to use our Passive Income from Rentals, Stock Portfolios etc...
 
 

You should

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

It makes sense to control how many self-sufficient foreigners spending foreign-capital (& how much foreign-capital they bring with them) as they drive up the cost of living & (unless you increase local salaries thus driving inflation & further driving up the cost of living) push down the standard of living for the locals.

To the extent that foreigner-created inflation is a factor, it is only where foreigners are concentrated, which is also where jobs are created by their spending.  Locals move to these areas to take those jobs.  So, in Phuket for example, inflation will exist - but only has a positive effect for rural-Thais, who benefit from family members who work there - even if the locals working there pay more for a papaya than they would back-home (though primarily due to middle-men's mark-ups on produce - not expats, specifically). 

 

And even in these areas, local workers and foreigners do not compete for the same housing - local's housing being very inexpensive, relative to their incomes.  There is an abundance of both types of housing, with prices falling for most expat-housing.

 

Are you aware of localized price-inflation, being caused by the expat-population, which is harming locals to a greater extent than the benefit of expat-spending in the same community?

 

6 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

It's a balancing act, hence Thailand is trying to ensure that retirees have the minimum assets/amount of spending that they believe injects foreign-capital into the appropriate "level" of the economy (i.e. "Middle Class" upwards).

"Middle Class" is a shifting demographic, with fewer Western working-folks coming anywhere near the level of working or retirement income+benefits typical of the boomer-generation, relative to overhead-costs.  This makes relocation to Thailand of greater benefit, as more Westerners can no longer have a decent standard-of-living in their home-country (retired and remote-working), but can have a good life here, living no where near a poverty-level.

Thailand would be wise capitalize on this situation - maximizing foreign-capital spending, by making it easier for more Western foreigners to live here (given they will have less/each to spend), rather than more difficult.  The embassy-letter change would appear to make it more difficult, though this depends on what (if anything) replaces it. 

 

In any case, if they up the requirements, as Western incomes fall, the only result will be that other countries who do the opposite (such as the PI, with it's newer expat-plans and ongoing "no problem tourist" policy) thrive, in their place.

[flexomike]

16 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

You have to report funds you take out of the US?
 

 

If taking cash of $10,000 or more you have to fill out a form stating how much before you leave the country, have never had to report any internet banking transactions, don't know if the bank does it or not, but have wired over a million a couple of times, no problem

[flexomike]

15 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Who do you report it to?

There is no customs or immigration when you exit the US.

I know you have to report brining money in, but I do not think you have to report taking it out.

 

Cannot remember the agency that requested it, but they had an officer at the airport loading area that had the forms to fill out, you are suppose to have them filled out before you get to boarding 

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Assuming the vegan juice bar keeps books and pays taxes proving income should not be difficult.

Same with banks and brokerage accounts, pretty easy to download statements.

Any legal income has a source and some documentation that can easily be provided.  Even when gambling in Las Vegas if one  wins $600 or over- one gets a document which means  the winning is being reported to the IRS- thereby proof of income.

If one is renting out their house and gets rental income- it is paid into normally a bank or sent by check which you deposit- There is also normally a rental agreement- All this is proof.

 

To me the best  proof- are  letters with a letterhead indicating xxx amount of  dollars per month being deposited into a bank account US or other backed by a Bank account summary showing  these same amounts going into the bank account and on the same statement a summary of your debits coming out in Thailand.

I have started saving my Thai ATM receipts- making a copy so they don't fade.  One single sheet of paper with 4 or 5 receipts- with a monthly total.  I have no idea what Thai Imm wants but I will have multiple documents cross referenced  and if that doesn't work- Plan B; C and D.  Anticipate their questions and plan how to answer it.

[JackThompson]

26 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Why use an agent when you can just go in to immigration and take care of business, if you are going to spend money cut out the middle man.

Two reasons. 
I don't know how to approach bribes in this culture (and neither does my Thai wife - maybe bring a family-member who deals with these sorts of things) - and it would involve me directly in illegal activity.

Plausible deniability to any wrong-doing for both parties. I was never given a "direct" brown-envelope option when I ran into problems with a Non-O stamp and marriage-based extension - both which were easily solvable if I were willing to pay through an agent. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by JackThompson

[mogandave]

Cannot remember the agency that requested it, but they had an officer at the airport loading area that had the forms to fill out, you are suppose to have them filled out before you get to boarding 

How do the dogs know how much money you have?

[JLCrab]

And you're going to put all these tax statements and audit records in front of a Thai IMM agent who has a hard enough time reading your one-year lease when you do your Retirement extension. Maybe. But again when they put out the regs as to what they want to see to prove income, then we will know and not what the collective vox populi here thinks that they should do and  want to see.

[mogandave]

"Middle Class" is a shifting demographic, with fewer Western working-folks coming anywhere near the level of working or retirement income+benefits typical of the boomer-generation, relative to overhead-costs.  This makes relocation to Thailand of greater benefit, as more Westerners can no longer have a decent standard-of-living in their home-country (retired and remote-working), but can have a good life here, living no where near a poverty-level.

Thailand would be wise capitalize on this situation - maximizing foreign-capital spending, by making it easier for more Western foreigners to live here (given they will have less/each to spend), rather than more difficult. 

Unless they’re having more and more problems with westerners, and more retirees ending up in hospitals with no money...

[Thaidream]

Just now, JLCrab said:

nd you're going to put all these tax statements and audit records in front of a Thai IMM agent who has a hard enough time reading your one-year lease when you do your Retirement extension. Maybe. But again when they put out the regs as to what they want to see to prove income, then we will know and not what the collective vox populi here thinks that they should do and  want to see.

Agree- what you do is boil it down to 4-5 pages of well documented primary  proof and present it; if questioned-keep pulling out secondary evidence; if more questions pull out the rest.  As long as the Police Order stands the way it is- the more proof the better- most of the time you'll win when you  got the docs.

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Unless they’re having more and more problems with westerners, and more retirees ending up in hospitals with no money...

Hospital-issue I and others addressed up-thread (somewhere) - a "last resort" simple and cheap policy, which all must buy when they enter the country or get an extension, based on the length of stay being given.

I am not aware of other 'problems with Westerners', in general.  There will always be a few bad-apples, who can be deported and banned.

Edited October 30, 2018 by JackThompson

[anon2736434]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I don't know how to approach bribes in this culture (and neither does my Thai wife - maybe bring a family-member who deals with these sorts of things)

You dont have to approach them, they have the solution ready, and if your thai wife doesnt know, wellll Ill leave that one alone.

[JLCrab]

14 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Agree- what you do is boil it down to 4-5 pages of well documented primary  proof

And now with 4-5 pages of primary proof and maybe more as opposed to the current boiler plate one-number embassy income letter how many retirement extensions per hour will the Thai IMM accountants be able to process?

Edited October 30, 2018 by JLCrab

[Pib]

How did you come to that conclusion.

I think they are only using records of the transfers done and Bangkok Bank New York would be coded as being a branch of a Thai bank.

I think it could well be a correct number of those using Bangkok Bank.

Guess we can agree to disagree.

 

The webpage talks Payments to Beneficiaries Outside the US and my bet is the address on file with SSA determines that....not the US bank such as the Bangkok Bank NY branch which is using a U.S. ABA/ACH routing number as a licensed US bank. The person's account number means nothing to the SSA for "location" determination purposes as that's for internal bank use.

 

But even the chart has conflicting info such as the single asterisk note code saying countries coded with a single asterisk like Thailand is coded the beneficaraies are having their IDD payment redirected to countries that do participate in IDD but Thailand is not part of/using IDD yet...not until early next year. And that asterisk next to Thailand has been there for at least a year when I first saw that webpage around a year ago when researching IDD.

 

 

[mogandave]

Hospital-issue I and others addressed up-thread (somewhere) - a "last resort" simple and cheap policy, which all must buy when they enter the country or get an extension, based on the length of stay being given.

I am not aware of other 'problems with Westerners', in general.  There will always be a few bad-apples, who can be deported and banned.

So do you have a simple and cheap policy in mind that provides a reasonable amount of coverage for a 50-80 year olds that plan to be here indefinitely? Not sure one exists.

It seems a fair percentage of people posting are living hand-to-mouth and would likely not be willing to pony up anything, particularly for something they believe they should get for free...

[Thaidream]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

o do you have a simple and cheap policy in mind that provides a reasonable amount of coverage for a 50-80 year olds that plan to be here indefinitely? Not sure one exists.

It seems a fair percentage of people posting are living hand-to-mouth and would likely not be willing to pony up anything, particularly for something they believe they should get for free..

If you are American or UK citizen you should be getting basic coverage for free- both countries do not provide the coverage if you are overseas- As an American- I had Medicare deducted from my salary for decades and they refuse to give the money back, too Bad, hospital care in Thailand is much cheaper than the US- and the Medicare fund would be better off allowing citizens to use their Medicare overseas.

[Thaidream]

36 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

And now with 4-5 pages of primary proof and maybe more as opposed to the current boiler plate one-number embassy income letter how many retirement extensions per hour will the Thai IMM accountants be able to process?

It would probably add 5 minutes more to the interview- longer queues, more frustration. But we didn't stop the  letter- the Embassy UK/Us did because allegedly Thai Imm wanted something that was and is impossible.

[greenbottle555]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

You learned this where/how?

There are reports on another thai visa website (can't link or mention it due to site policies) indicating that people are waiting all day in Lak Si only to be denied their work permits (while already being employed).

[JimGant]

Quote

Me have a bad feeling that when the TI official guidance does come out it's going to say "a monthly deposit into a local Thai bank account supported by a Thai bank statement."   Something similar to the current Thai bank letter required if using the Bt800K/400K deposit in a Thai bank option.   This is just what me thinks, but me often wrong...but me also right sometimes.  

Me thinks you're dead on. If you think about it, Thailand doesn't really care to see your solid gold verifiable pension, social security, whatever income statements. For many, much (none?) of this income will ever come to Thailand, as it will first go to 3 or more former wives (or whatever). No, Thailand wants to see "disposable income available in Thailand." So, folks, be prepared to send money to a bank account in Thailand, so that Immigration can once a year see that you, indeed, have the stipulated money to live on. Whether this averages out to 65k/mo -- or less if going the combo method -- will be easy for Immigration to sort out. And they won't care where this money came from -- pensions, rentals, Las Vegas winnings, your annual gift for Aunt Agnes..... And they won't care to sort through 36 ATM slips, i.e., the number of ATM pulls to show 65k/mo for one year. So, get ready to send money to a bank account in Thailand -- just too bad the ACH system is going away, as it's cost -- in fairly large chunks -- was comparable to using a fee free Schwab card.

 

Seems so logical, and so much in favor of Thailand identifying ne'er do well foreigners -- that it probably won't be implemented.

 

Quote

And? now with 4-5 pages of primary proof and maybe more as opposed to the current boiler plate one-number embassy income letter how many retirement extensions per hour will the Thai IMM accountants be able to process?

Nope. Pass book please.

[JLCrab]

15 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It would probably ...

Nota bene post from Mr. Gant above.

[mogandave]

It would probably add 5 minutes more to the interview- longer queues, more frustration. But we didn't stop the  letter- the Embassy UK/Us did because allegedly Thai Imm wanted something that was and is impossible.

How long did it take to get the letter, and how much did it cost?

[Hook]

This certainly is a set back for me and am sure many others my soon to be sent me a you-tube video asking me what this is about. She was shocked when explained it to her I am sure it's going to be the subject of the day at her work place she works in a uppity hotel. It's hard to think about all this like drawing 800,000 baht out of retirement fund earned income taxed you made to much money this year sir into a low interest bank account. It's hard living when you make the same amount every month and if your given a rise it's nothing. I told the soon to be we can try 400,000 baht marriage visa of course I am looking forward to all that fun paper work and fees. The soon be and I wish you all the best of luck we are hoping that Immigration can sort it out in Thai future.

Hook                  

[Pib]

Yeah....simplicity...makes it easy for TI. Don't bring me a briefcase full of income docs in all kinds of formats and languages which I won't understand...just bring me the short & sweet Thai bank letter along with your passbook like used for those folks using the big deposit option.

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Nota bene post from Mr. Gant above.

You could be right- but Thai Imm would most likely redo their Police Order and refuse  Embassy Letters for  all Nationalities.   According to the BE/US Embassies it's all Thai Imms fault.  I don't think so......but I will still save my 'proof' just in case- others can do what they want.

[Thaidream]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Seems so logical, and so much in favor of Thailand identifying ne'er do well foreigners -- that it probably won't be implemented.

Actually= the more confusing it is- the better they like it- more chances for a 'bonus'

The retired population is no threat to the security of Thailand- hardly ever hear of a Senior citizen getting busted for drugs; money laundering; running a boiler room; or robbing a bank.

[KiChakayan]

11 minutes ago, Hook said:

 I am looking forward to all that fun paper work and fees. The soon be and I wish you all the best of luck we are hoping that Immigration can sort it out in Thai future.

Hook                  

About 2 to 3 hours of homework and 60 to 90 minutes at  immigration. Ok, about one day a year, if I include the driving. What fees, may I ask?

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

There are no taxes on capital gain made on stock exchange.

There are taxes on dividends, but deduced automatically before they are paid to you.

 

But yes, Thai banks documents of such incomes certainly would be no problem for extensions. (A lot easier to verify than foreign incomes )

Capital gains are not income (the name does give it away somewhat)...

 

[JLCrab]

If all it takes for a one-year retirement extension is a monthly 65K baht US$ equiv. transfer from your US account into your Thai bank account with the proper 3 or 4 letter code in your Thai account passbook, then I will be one happy camper.

 

But I'll wait to see what the IMM higher ups decide is the way to go rather than putting too much faith in what those on here would like to see what is the way to go.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

So do you have a simple and cheap policy in mind that provides a reasonable amount of coverage for a 50-80 year olds that plan to be here indefinitely? Not sure one exists.

Short answer - would be govt-hospital only, only covers if you have no other insurance, and only gets you stabilized-enough to survive your plane-trip home.  There would be no long-term care, and it could not be used to treat any condition that is not life-threatening.  Call it "Stabilize and Repatriate Coverage."

 

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

It seems a fair percentage of people posting are living hand-to-mouth and would likely not be willing to pony up anything, particularly for something they believe they should get for free...

Then, they don't get an extension or enter the country at all.  Note that this would be used instead of the other pointless hurdles, since it is the only real harm Western foreigners could be credibly accused of doing in-scale (though I haven't seen any numbers indicating the extent to which this problem exists, in the first place).