Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[Mike Teavee]

16 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

Agree with everything you say except I would add that I believe they will accept evidence of income from within Thailand backed up with a Thai Tax statement (They may limit this to Salary & Proof of having a work permit).

 

They simply have to do this to cater for (I believe the majority of) people living here on "Marriage Extensions" & may well limit this option to people on MEs (We all know these are harder for TI to process than Retirement Extensions & there have been many reports of people being encouraged/told to move to RE from ME).

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Mike Teavee

[mogandave]

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

To be clear, you mean they will be excepted...

[thonglorjimmy]

20 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted [sic]. Of course, it's your choice if you except [sic] what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

Thanks for the definitive clarification, especially the line I've highlighted - and you know this for certain how?

[Joe Mcseismic]

Commonalities I have seen in this thread:-

 

1.  Wishful thinking. Wanting immigration and embassies to do things so that the poster's own position and problems are alleviated. If the embassies and Thai immigration don't see it the same way, the poster sees conspiracies, malevolence and laziness on the part of these institutions.

 

2. People wouldn't lie when swearing an oath. Hah! I've been here long enough to know that the many people will do anything to stay in Thailand. They will wait, prevaricate and dither until finally their money runs out and they have to borrow money for an airfare. There has ALWAYS been lots of desperate people in Thailand.

 

3.  Some posters willing to throw other posters under the theoretical bus, if their own circumstances can be changed to be favourable by doing so (you two know who you are).

 

4. A comical over-estimation of the importance of retirees within the Thai economic system.

 

5. Thinking that income "proof" is going to be accepted by immigration as a substitute for the Embassy letter.

 

6. The expectation that the embassy, or Immigration should spend their time verifying the "proof" submitted.

 

7. Thinking that there is something wrong with Thailand only wanting well to do retirees and not wanting Cheap Charlies.

 

Please add any more that I've missed.

[Thaidream]

37 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

, you can't expect any country to write its immigration rules to cater for people earning money in the country and not declaring it.

I am not advocating Thai Imm do anything- in fact I am advocating for Thai Imm to do nothing except use the current Police Order of 2014 which allows all kind of ways to prove income. That allows you to transfer money in; that allows me to use my income letters and ATM; that allows people to take cash and place it into a Thai bank and show the proof ; it allows foreigners in Thailand to  use their business income to meet the requirement.  Simple, easy, change nothing and simply forget about the Embassy Letter. I am not asking them to do anything at all..  It appears to me others are advocating for them to change to accommodate their way. 

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, nputman said:

Has anyone actually gone to their local Immigration office and ask the big boss what they will require. 

Some have asked their local office but got no answer since they knew nothing about it. 

Until the Immigration Bureau makes an directive or a police order nothing will be known.

[Mike Teavee]

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I am not advocating Thai Imm do anything- in fact I am advocating for Thai Imm to do nothing except use the current Police Order of 2014 which allows all kind of ways to prove income. That allows you to transfer money in; that allows me to use my income letters and ATM; that allows people to take cash and place it into a Thai bank and show the proof ; it allows foreigners in Thailand to  use their business income to meet the requirement.  Simple, easy, change nothing and simply forget about the Embassy Letter. I am not asking them to do anything at all..  It appears to me others are advocating for them to change to accommodate their way. 

But they (currently) only do this by exception, in the vast majority of cases they have been accepting what it says on the Income Letter from the Embassy, maybe (rarely) a cursory glance at the documents behind it but certainly no in-depth review 

 

As the Income Letters will no longer exist, they would be forced to review all proof of income&  simply don't have the knowledge or bandwidth to do this and why would they when it's easy for them to insist on proof coming from a small number of Thai sources that they can easily review/understand/confirm.

 

Edit: By the current act, it would be acceptable for somebody to provide proof of income from:-

• Any Financial institute anywhere (language considerations aside, opens up massive risk of fraudulent evidence)  
• Any source - How can you expect them to understand how Pensions work in every country or investment income (Do you understand Scrip Dividends these are income but would you say they should be included)? or Rental income or any of the other ways you can get legitimate income in your own country... 
• In any language - Police Act doesn't seem to state it has to be in Thai/English

... It's just illogical to think that they won't have to limit what is & what's not acceptable the debate is only on what these limits are - So the Police Act can stay the same but practise can change or the Police Act can change & practise can change - But Practise will change.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Mike Teavee
Added comment on current Police Act

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Please add any more that I've missed.

You forgot this  one- I am advocating  Thai imm does nothing- simply follow the current Police Order of 2014 as written in each and every Thai imm location.  If they do that- everything is solved for everyone in every situation as long as you have the money or income. 

[nputman]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Some have asked their local office but got no answer since they knew nothing about it. 

Until the Immigration Bureau makes an directive or a police order nothing will be known.

Thanks Joe, I will be going to my local office in a month or so and ask them with the stated documents and see what they say. 

[Joe Mcseismic]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You forgot this  one- I am advocating  Thai imm does nothing- simply follow the current Police Order of 2014 as written in each and every Thai imm location.  If they do that- everything is solved for everyone in every situation as long as you have the money or income. 

Mine were observations not advocating stuff.

[Lovethailandelite]

18 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Agree with everything you say except I would add that I believe they will accept evidence of income from within Thailand backed up with a Thai Tax statement (They may limit this to Salary & Proof of having a work permit).

 

They simply have to do this to cater for (I believe the majority of) people living here on "Marriage Extensions" & may well limit this option to people on MEs (We all know these are harder for TI to process than Retirement Extensions & there have been many reports of people being encouraged/told to move to RE from ME).

 

Sorry, I was referring to those with income not derived in Thailand. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

s the Income Letters will no longer exist, they would be forced to review all proof of income&  simply don't have the knowledge or bandwidth to do this and why would they when it's easy for them to insist on proof coming from a small number of Thai sources that they can easily review/understand/confirm

There have been reports for years that they have asked for added proof- including from me and others- Since they accepted the proof- obviously they know what to look for or they wouldn't have asked for it. It is not that hard.

 

Thai Imm has changed nothing and don't have to change anything- The Police Order stands- what they have to do is follow their own Police Order which accommodates  Everyone in every circumstance and I have to believe that is why it is written as such.

 

I can envision a situation in which an applicant the first year has to produce many types of proof showing income and if it is guaranteed for life- no need to show it again./  I can envision they could ask someone who has 800K in the bank to show their income stream. I can envision many things but I would rather keep  the current police order because it can accommodate many  types of people who live in Thailand. The stricter and more narrow Thai Imm makes it- the less accommodating.  

 

 

 

[New beginnings]

37 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

Not sure why you are stating combination method has been abolished. Have you seen prove of this or is this pure speculation?

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Mine were observations not advocating stuff.

Sorry- you were making  observations and did not use the word advocate. 

[phutoie2]

12 minutes ago, nputman said:

Thanks Joe, I will be going to my local office in a month or so and ask them with the stated documents and see what they say. 

People are already asking, a Brit informed the Captain that runs the Phetchabun office that this would be the last time he could use the income letter. With a twinkle in her eye she said, ' no problem, use this one again'.

[Thaidream]

7 minutes ago, New beginnings said:

ou need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.

Then why should anyone  get the Embassy Letter which all the Embassies have said will be good for another 6 months? 

[Mike Teavee]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There have been reports for years that they have asked for added proof- including from me and others- Since they accepted the proof- obviously they know what to look for or they wouldn't have asked for it. It is not that hard.

 

Thai Imm has changed nothing and don't have to change anything- The Police Order stands- what they have to do is follow their own Police Order which accommodates  Everyone in every circumstance and I have to believe that is why it is written as such.

 

I can envision a situation in which an applicant the first year has to produce many types of proof showing income and if it is guaranteed for life- no need to show it again./  I can envision they could ask someone who has 800K in the bank to show their income stream. I can envision many things but I would rather keep  the current police order because it can accommodate many  types of people who live in Thailand. The stricter and more narrow Thai Imm makes it- the less accommodating.  

 

 

 

Apologies, I added this to my post above after you had quoted it...  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: By the current act, it would be acceptable for somebody to provide proof of income from:-

• Any Financial institute anywhere (language considerations aside, opens up massive risk of fraudulent evidence)  
• Any source - How can you expect them to understand how Pensions work in every country or investment income (Do you understand Scrip Dividends these are income but would you say they should be included)? or Rental income or any of the other ways you can get legitimate income in your own country... 
• In any language - Police Act doesn't seem to state it has to be in Thai/English

... It's just illogical to think that they won't have to limit what is & what's not acceptable the debate is only on what these limits are - So the Police Act can stay the same but practise can change or the Police Act can change & practise can change - But Practise will change.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think we're in agreement that:-

1. Things will change irrespective of whether the Police Act changes or not
2. What these changes will be is anybody's guess but there will be some limits on what they will accept as proof
3. (Unfortunately) some genuine people will be impacted
4. People will find a way around whatever rules are put in place
5. There will be more changes in the future 

I just sincerely hope that there is some mechanism for supporting people who:

• Were not aware that their embassy had stopped issuing the letters (Seems US has emailed people, UK & Australia to the best of my knowledge haven't)
• Who's life/family are here & for whatever reason can't meet the requirements but can prove that they're not a burden on the state (e.g. Maybe their wife earns enough salary to support the whole family)

 

[Thaidream]

53 minutes ago, thonglorjimmy said:

  51 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted [sic]. Of course, it's your choice if you except [sic] what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

If this is the case then why is Thai Imm accepting the Embassy Letters for 6 months time or are you referring to  future extensions?  For some of us there is no way to transfer 65K per month in time to do the next extension with the Embassy Letter.

[Lovethailandelite]

16 minutes ago, New beginnings said:

Not sure why you are stating combination method has been abolished. Have you seen prove of this or is this pure speculation?

The combination method cannot continue with no income letter. The only option on the table was 800/400k banked funds or a 'Regular Minimum MONTHLY income to a Thai bank account' of 40/65k.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, Lovethailandelite said:

The combination method cannot continue with no income letter. The only option on the table was 800/400k banked funds or a 'Regular Minimum MONTHLY income to a Thai bank account' of 40/65k.

If they accept some kind of financial proof for the income option there is no reason the combination of income and money in the bank could not used for an extension based upon retirement. Just show the money going into a bank every month and the proof of money in a bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

[Lovethailandelite]

4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If this is the case then why is Thai Imm accepting the Embassy Letters for 6 months time or are you referring to  future extensions?  For some of us there is no way to transfer 65K per month in time to do the next extension with the Embassy Letter.

There is no guarantee yet, that Immigration WILL accept these letters for 6 months ONCE the Embassy stops issuing them.
That needs to be clarified which it will be at a later date along with how much history immigration will want to see regarding your incoming transfers in order to issue your next extension.

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

If they accept some kind of financial proof for the income option there is no reason the combination of income and money in the bank could not used for an extension based upon retirement. Just show the money going into a bank every month and the proof of money in a bank to reach a total of 800k baht.

Yes. It could happen. At the moment, there is no mention of it being available other than the 2 straight forward options.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lovethailandelite

[Thaidream]

4 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

There is no guarantee yet, that Immigration WILL accept these letters for 6 months ONCE the Embassy stops issuing them

The Us Embassy has stated in their  information that the  Embassy Letters issued in 2018- will be accepted for 6 months by Thai Imm and also have stated Thai Imm will accept early  applications- 45 days early in some locations. Is the Embassy info wrong?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

At the moment, there is no mention of it being available other than the 2 straight forward options.

Immigration has not said anything yet. Only the embassies have posted info along with the saying they will not do income letters anymore.

Not much difference between showing only income and a combination with money in the bank. The income could even be going into the same account where money is at.

[Lovethailandelite]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration has not said anything yet. Only the embassies have posted info along with the saying they will not do income letters anymore.

Not much difference between showing only income and a combination with money in the bank. The income could even be going into the same account where money is at.

Immigration met with ALL embassy representatives. The meetings concluded with the released statements that the embassy's have posted. Banked money OR minimum foreign income.
We can go around in circles all day BUT there is no other option at this time. Whether immigration choose to add that option, is there call. At this time it isn't there.That is what people need to be aware of and not sit there there thinking it is. It isn't once the income letters cease to be issued.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Lovethailandelite

[luckyluke]

9 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Immigration met with ALL embassy representatives. The meetings concluded with the released statements that the embassy's have posted. Banked money OR minimum foreign income.

A link where the minutes of this meeting can be consulted ?

[Lovethailandelite]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

A link where the minutes of this meeting can be consulted ?

Would you like a link where you can read the minutes to the latest COBRA meeting too? 

[Nyezhov]

38 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration has not said anything yet. Only the embassies have posted info along with the saying they will not do income letters anymore.

Not much difference between showing only income and a combination with money in the bank. The income could even be going into the same account where money is at.

So 144 pages in we still only have speculation and what ifs and if comes and whatnot?

 

Joe, when you hear something DEFINITIVE will you start a new thread? Leaving this one to the random observations (like I will have in three days from CW)...

[luckyluke]

20 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Would you like a link where you can read the minutes to the latest COBRA meeting too? 

You were there also !

 

But never mind I know 2 guys in Pattaya, they sure must know, as they have connections with the highest level of Thai government.

 

One is a former agent of the C.I.A.; the other of MI5.

 

[JLCrab]

2 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't.

Thank you. Here's what I have done to date:

 

November 2, 2018, I made my first 65,0000+ baht transfer via SWIFT from my US bank to my Bangkok Bank account. The transfer shows with the 'FTT' code. I will do this every month until things sort out.
 
I have rescheduled my next trip to US so that I might have time to muster the required docs to apply for and obtain an O-A visa while in the US.

 

If the O-A does not work out, the schedule is such that I will still have 3+ months before my next extension to deposit the 800K baht in a Thai bank account. .I will also make sure  I have the roughly US$15,000 for the 5-year Thailand Elite Visa if I decide that is the more desirable option.

 

As for what anyone else should do: Up-To-You.