Pompeo says U.S. trying to convince China 'to behave like a normal nation'

[puck2]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

Seeking asylum is forced by "circumstances."

 

The Germans (Nazis) tried to hide him, knowing that such a rocket expert would be „welcome“ by both Russia's Stalin or the USA. In both countries his „history“ in Germany wouldn't be a problem, 'cause that more than 12.000 forced laborers or people of concentration camps (=official accounting) plus 8.000 non military people had died in connection with his building of A4-rockets. And he went on working emotionless.

 

So, who would get asylum for such a big number of deaths, he was responsible for? Only the military and states of the war winners would disregard Braun's history … instead of pushing him into the Gulag or to the Nuremberg Trials. That he personally surrendered himself in Reutte/Tirol/Austria to the Americans is understandable. The best „choice“ for him .... as a NSDAPand SS member.

 

Now the USA - Pompeo -  is playing the "holy" man against the "thief - China". 5555.

I'm sure the USA never harvested the fruits from buying German companies as Braun, WMF etc. ????.

Edited November 2, 2018 by puck2

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, puck2 said:

 

The Germans (Nazis) tried to hide him, knowing that such a rocket expert would be „welcome“ by both Russia's Stalin or the USA. In both countries his „history“ in Germany wouldn't be a problem, 'cause that more than 12.000 forced laborers or people of concentration camps (=official accounting) plus 8.000 non military people had died in connection with his building of A4-rockets. And he went on working emotionless.

 

So, who would get asylum for such a big number of deaths, he was responsible for? Only the military and states of the war winners would disregard Braun's history … instead of pushing him into the Gulag or to the Nuremberg Trials. That he personally surrendered himself in Reutte/Tirol/Austria to the Americans is understandable. The best „choice“ for him .... as a NSDAPand SS member.

 

Now the USA - Pompeo -  is playing the "holy" man against the "thief - China". 5555.

I'm sure the USA never harvested the fruits from buying German companies as Braun, WMF etc. ????.

You compare two completely different things.

 

Whatever the circumstances around Von Braun, the fact is that he wouldn't have kept on building rockets for Germany after 1944.

 

So, either his skills were lost, or they were going to be used by another country.

 

This was hardly theft!

 

In the case of China, there is pure theft of intellectual property (softwares and so on), and there is a "transfer of know how" where the US corporations owner of said know how consider that what they get in China is worth what they give up.

 

In the end, this greedy rush for low costs by US companies is going to cost them dearly.

 

I watch companies like Huawei, then I watch Apple, and then I remember Nokia...

 

[tonbridgebrit]

On 11/1/2018 at 3:57 AM, spidermike007 said:

It is the way the Chinese government does business. Boeing signed a contract with them years ago, that turns over most of their technology to the Chinese within a specific period of time. It was do that, or not get the huge contract. You cannot just lecture a nation, and expect it to change. This coming from a nation led by one of the biggest goons of the past century. China is bending alot of rules. But, is this how you get them to change? Is this how you negotiate with them? Let us never forget. Trump is not much of a negotiator. He negotiated five companies out of business. He left behind billions of dollars in debt. Who paid for that debt? Not him. When it really comes down to it, Trump cannot negotiate his way out of a paper bag.

So, Boeing signed a contract that turned over most of their technology to the Chinese, and in return, Boeing got a huge contract. Well, I totally agree that this is what happened.

Now, can we really say that Beijing is being a bad bunch of guys ?  The technology was certainly not stolen. It was handed over to get a huge contract. Boeing had the freedom of choice to not do this.

Getting Beijing to change ?  What, Trump is suppose to tell Beijing, "look, stop telling big companies like Boeing, that they've got to hand over technology in return for big contracts, just give Boeing big contracts, stop demanding their technology".  How is Beijing going to react to this comment ? They're not going to obey Trump, are they ?  Off-course not.  

Edited November 2, 2018 by tonbridgebrit

[tonbridgebrit]

I've noticed all the silly talk above about comparing the Nazi scientists going to America after the war, and transfer of technology from America to China. The comparisons are ridiculous.

If the Americans had of kidnapped and abducted Nazi scientists during the war, and forced them to work for America and defeat the Nazis, who would be complaining ? Nobody. The handover of technology from American companies to China is being done by the American companies themselves. As said above, US companies want the big contracts, Beijing demands the technology in return for the contracts, the big companies go ahead and do it, they want the big contracts.

What about America's technology is combat jets and other military hardware ? Is China stealing the technology, and building weapons copied from American defence contractors ? They're not. If China is copying the American combat jets, well, those combat jets are a very poor copy of the American jets.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 11/1/2018 at 5:31 AM, Morch said:

 

There isn't a single country "bombing the Middle East". Other than in nonsense posts, that is. Some countries are bombing in other countries in the Middle East, yes. The Middle East in its entirety? No. 

Morch, the poster wrote sarcasticly "So, China should start bombing the Middle East".
You go and put up your response.

Look, it's absurd and hypocritical when Washington goes and tells China to behave like a normal nation. Washington is involved in lots of proxy wars, and de-stabilizing of various nations. Washington is certainly not in a position to lecture Beijing about anything. Washington is doing far bigger (worse) stuff than Beijing. When Washington lectures Beijing like this, well, Washington is making itself look absurd with hypocrisy. Lots of posters feel this way, on Thai Visa. Yes, Thai Visa is representative of what society reckons.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 11/1/2018 at 6:15 AM, the guest said:

 

Yes that's ripe from a country (USA) that does exactly the opposite. Its like the kettle calling the pot black, hypocrites !

Yes, Washington is doing a massive display of hypocrisy.

The previous administrations in Washington tried to not reveal their hypocrisy. The present White House, I think they don't actually care. They will say what they want to say, they don't care if their hypocrisy is on display. They will "say it, as it is".

[Brunolem]

22 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

The handover of technology from American companies to China is being done by the American companies themselves. As said above, US companies want the big contracts, Beijing demands the technology in return for the contracts, the big companies go ahead and do it, they want the big contracts.

 

That's for the sellers, the producers want something else than big contracts in exchange for their know how...they want ultra cheap labor, with no workers protection, no environmental protection...the far West in the far East!

 

Plus they also enjoy the opportunities of having their products "transiting" through tax havens, so that they don't have to pay taxes on the huge profits they make on exploiting the poor!

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Brunolem

[mikebike]

On 11/1/2018 at 12:31 PM, Morch said:

 

There isn't a single country "bombing the Middle East". Other than in nonsense posts, that is. Some countries are bombing in other countries in the Middle East, yes. The Middle East in its entirety? No. 

A tad pedantic, no?

 

Seems to me the phrase is well understood to mean PARTS of the ME, not the entire region.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

So, Boeing signed a contract that turned over most of their technology to the Chinese, and in return, Boeing got a huge contract. Well, I totally agree that this is what happened.

Now, can we really say that Beijing is being a bad bunch of guys ?  The technology was certainly not stolen. It was handed over to get a huge contract. Boeing had the freedom of choice to not do this.

Getting Beijing to change ?  What, Trump is suppose to tell Beijing, "look, stop telling big companies like Boeing, that they've got to hand over technology in return for big contracts, just give Boeing big contracts, stop demanding their technology".  How is Beijing going to react to this comment ? They're not going to obey Trump, are they ?  Off-course not.  

 

Just another example of the neophyte's lack of understanding and lack of negotiating skills. When his name was in favor, he was able to use it to his advantage and make money on licensing deals. Now, with the presidency showing his true colors, his name is radioactive. He has lost 17 out of 19 of his merchandising deals, Inanka's company folded, and he cannot sell or rent any of his properties, due to people not wanting to be associated with his toxic name. Only Russian mobsters are signing up. 

 

Now, his lack of skill is really showing with his heavy handed tactics. China will never respond to his approach. Xi out plays him at every turn. 

 

Wait a week. The lame duck will spend his last two years deflecting the losses and will leave a humbled man, if that is possible. And the world will celebrate his fall. 

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Yes, Washington is doing a massive display of hypocrisy.

The previous administrations in Washington tried to not reveal their hypocrisy. The present White House, I think they don't actually care. They will say what they want to say, they don't care if their hypocrisy is on display. They will "say it, as it is".

 

Just another demonstration of the total lack of class, dignity, education, skill, grace, diplomacy, respect, and honor Trump lacks. He is in way over his head. And he has surrounded himself with an extraordinary lack of talent. 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Morch, the poster wrote sarcasticly "So, China should start bombing the Middle East".
You go and put up your response.

Look, it's absurd and hypocritical when Washington goes and tells China to behave like a normal nation. Washington is involved in lots of proxy wars, and de-stabilizing of various nations. Washington is certainly not in a position to lecture Beijing about anything. Washington is doing far bigger (worse) stuff than Beijing. When Washington lectures Beijing like this, well, Washington is making itself look absurd with hypocrisy. Lots of posters feel this way, on Thai Visa. Yes, Thai Visa is representative of what society reckons. 

 

I somehow doubt that you can demonstrate TVF is "representative of what society reckons". And regardless, you'd probably turn your back on the notion anyway, seeing how in many topic involving China and its ways, many of the posts and responses are negative.

 

Regardless of how one wishes to take Pompeo's words, the comment I responded to was wrong. That it was probably sarcastic got little to do with anything. Obviously, you're not actually addressing my point, but rather launching another pro-Chinese rant. How surprising.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, mikebike said:

A tad pedantic, no?

 

Seems to me the phrase is well understood to mean PARTS of the ME, not the entire region.

 

I don't think so. In a reality in which misrepresentations of events is almost the norm, insisting on facts is sometimes necessary. Do note that your "version" doesn't make for the sweeping, like-generating comment the original was. The same issue, by the way, could be taken with Pompeo's words.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

I've noticed all the silly talk above about comparing the Nazi scientists going to America after the war, and transfer of technology from America to China. The comparisons are ridiculous.

If the Americans had of kidnapped and abducted Nazi scientists during the war, and forced them to work for America and defeat the Nazis, who would be complaining ? Nobody. The handover of technology from American companies to China is being done by the American companies themselves. As said above, US companies want the big contracts, Beijing demands the technology in return for the contracts, the big companies go ahead and do it, they want the big contracts.

What about America's technology is combat jets and other military hardware ? Is China stealing the technology, and building weapons copied from American defence contractors ? They're not. If China is copying the American combat jets, well, those combat jets are a very poor copy of the American jets.

 

"Is China stealing the technology, and building weapons copied from American defence contractors ? They're not."

 

Yes, they are.

 

"If China is copying the American combat jets, well, those combat jets are a very poor copy of the American jets."

 

Says who?

 

 

[sirineou]

On 11/1/2018 at 12:32 AM, Morch said:

 

China's ways predate Trump's involvement in politics by many years. And it's not as if China's leadership is all that great either. Ask Winnie-the-Pooh.

You are of course right on the first count, Chinas ways indeed predates Trump, and some of the ways indeed need modification, All political leaders should act in the best interest of their country, The operative word here is "should" , we all know politics come into play  and the politician best interest sometimes overrides other concerns.

 I will not argue that China's  Jinping is a saint but I will argue that he is a politician who knows when to talk and when to keep his mouth shut, on the other hand Trump suffers from diarrhea of the mouth , and the American  people first but also the Chinese and the world Paying the price.

Trump needs to keep his mouth shut and/or go away, and let the adults do their job. 

 

[Srikcir]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Trump needs to keep his mouth shut and/or go away, and let the adults do their job. 

Talking Won’t End Trump’s Growing China Trade War Any Time Soon

• the U.S.-China trade war will extend well into 2019. And even that it may never see a clean resolution.
• Chinese officials have begun to contemplate the possibility of a new Cold War with the U.S.
• Trump’s hawks are convinced they are in an existential battle with China and likely to demand deep and long-term changes from Beijing that it is likely to resist,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-13/talking-won-t-end-trump-s-growing-china-trade-war-any-time-soon

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You are of course right on the first count, Chinas ways indeed predates Trump, and some of the ways indeed need modification, All political leaders should act in the best interest of their country, The operative word here is "should" , we all know politics come into play  and the politician best interest sometimes overrides other concerns.

 I will not argue that China's  Jinping is a saint but I will argue that he is a politician who knows when to talk and when to keep his mouth shut, on the other hand Trump suffers from diarrhea of the mouth , and the American  people first but also the Chinese and the world Paying the price.

Trump needs to keep his mouth shut and/or go away, and let the adults do their job. 

 

 

Winning a manners contest against Trump isn't much of a feat. As to whether the Chinese leader is all that great when it comes to, say, human-rights in China, or treatment of minorities, or antagonizing neighboring countries, or this-or-that - I guess we can have a difference of opinions.

 

It's all good and well to bash Trump. He truly deserves most of it. That said, the competition still remains dodgy.

 

I think that with regard to formulating the US's policy and response to China, what I would have liked to see is something placed somewhere between the previous and the current administration's actions. As said on past topics (and as is relevant to similar instances), taking a tough stance is one thing, and it ain't all bad, but doing it the Trump style is another matter.

[Brunolem]

3 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Talking Won’t End Trump’s Growing China Trade War Any Time Soon

• the U.S.-China trade war will extend well into 2019. And even that it may never see a clean resolution.
• Chinese officials have begun to contemplate the possibility of a new Cold War with the U.S.
• Trump’s hawks are convinced they are in an existential battle with China and likely to demand deep and long-term changes from Beijing that it is likely to resist,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-13/talking-won-t-end-trump-s-growing-china-trade-war-any-time-soon

Existential battle indeed, but it seems that the battle began after the war was already lost!

 

Even if all transfers of know how and thefts were to stop tomorrow, it wouldn't probably change much, since China has already had ample time to collect more than enough.

 

It is not clear how much America is going to benefit from the tariffs since the country is highly dependent on Chinese imports which cannot be replaced overnight.

 

Meanwhile, the battle has already cost some 12 billion dollars in subsidies to US farmers affected by China's own tariffs...and the US trade deficit with China has never been so high!

 

 

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

As to whether the Chinese leader is all that great when it comes to, say, human-rights in China, or treatment of minorities, or antagonizing neighboring countries, or this-or-that - I guess we can have a difference of opinions.

No difference of opinion there, or with all the rest you said in your reply.

IMO Not everything that Trump proposes to do (and I am very anti trump but a pragmatist) is wrong  it is that he is a political moron to say the least.  I compare him to a poisonous   vesel, all good thing that go in it will also be poisoned.  

[lannarebirth]

9 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

So, Boeing signed a contract that turned over most of their technology to the Chinese, and in return, Boeing got a huge contract. Well, I totally agree that this is what happened.

Now, can we really say that Beijing is being a bad bunch of guys ?  The technology was certainly not stolen. It was handed over to get a huge contract. Boeing had the freedom of choice to not do this.

Getting Beijing to change ?  What, Trump is suppose to tell Beijing, "look, stop telling big companies like Boeing, that they've got to hand over technology in return for big contracts, just give Boeing big contracts, stop demanding their technology".  How is Beijing going to react to this comment ? They're not going to obey Trump, are they ?  Off-course not.  

No, but what the US CAN do is exclude Boeing from bidding on US defense contracts if they choose to enter into such a contract.

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Talking Won’t End Trump’s Growing China Trade War Any Time Soon

• the U.S.-China trade war will extend well into 2019. And even that it may never see a clean resolution.
• Chinese officials have begun to contemplate the possibility of a new Cold War with the U.S.
• Trump’s hawks are convinced they are in an existential battle with China and likely to demand deep and long-term changes from Beijing that it is likely to resist,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-13/talking-won-t-end-trump-s-growing-china-trade-war-any-time-soon

Yes indeed my friend. My car radio in the US is set to Bloomberg news,  If you really want to know what's going on,  listen to financial news . Bloomberg news are not Red or Blue the only goal is the bottom line and it is Green.I have not heard one financial professional that does not work for Trump who thinks that the way Trump is going about this is correct. 

He does not have clearly defined goals, he undercuts his negotiators, even if the Chinese want to deal, they are afraid to stick their neck out, and he has alienated our allies. 

This will not end well for anyone involved.

 

[Johnnyngai]

13 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Talking Won’t End Trump’s Growing China Trade War Any Time Soon

• the U.S.-China trade war will extend well into 2019. And even that it may never see a clean resolution.
• Chinese officials have begun to contemplate the possibility of a new Cold War with the U.S.
• Trump’s hawks are convinced they are in an existential battle with China and likely to demand deep and long-term changes from Beijing that it is likely to resist,

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-13/talking-won-t-end-trump-s-growing-china-trade-war-any-time-soon

China has acknowledged that the next year's economic growth might be 1.5% lower.  

Giving China's third world background,

belt tightening and digging in deep for defense is the order of the year.  

[Johnnyngai]

13 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Winning a manners contest against Trump isn't much of a feat. As to whether the Chinese leader is all that great when it comes to, say, human-rights in China, or treatment of minorities, or antagonizing neighboring countries, or this-or-that - I guess we can have a difference of opinions.

 

It's all good and well to bash Trump. He truly deserves most of it. That said, the competition still remains dodgy.

 

I think that with regard to formulating the US's policy and response to China, what I would have liked to see is something placed somewhere between the previous and the current administration's actions. As said on past topics (and as is relevant to similar instances), taking a tough stance is one thing, and it ain't all bad, but doing it the Trump style is another matter.

 "'" human-rights in China, or treatment of minorities, or antagonizing neighboring countries ""'

Human rights doesn't exist in any authoritarian society, China is only one of many. 

 

Minorities are living better in some ways.

Countless Hans peasants in coastal provinces lost their land due to corrupt officials' land grappling. 

Minorities living in remote areas are not affected yet ! Just wait until economic progress gets to their areas.  

The minorities who have pledged allegiance to Beijing received "carrots" 

The well educated ones have so much praise for Beijing that I felt sick listening to them.  

 

The South China Sea Islands have been in dispute on and off for many hundred years. 

The old emperors sent Chinese to migrate to S E A for many hundred years for the above purpose. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aj Mick]

On 11/2/2018 at 10:12 AM, mauGR1 said:

It looks like a nice little can of worms, not sure it's a good idea trying to open it????

Has long been open, albeit swept under the carpet somewhat.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm?noredirect=on