Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Dear Sir we are using our time wisely figuring out how we can BEAT the system...We are prioritizing quite well thank you...  

I wouldn't say beat the system, there is one in place that worked quite well until the 3 stooges came along and disrupted everything and as yet there is no new system in place, indeed there may never be a new one.

[Spidey]

58 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

And you get pension? In the US you don't get private company pension any more. Private company pension (even if it exists and you're eligible) before 62 is a meagre amount. I let it stay in their pension fund to increase in value. 

In the UK, I got a company pension at the maximum value, index linked, at the age of 55.

[Thaidream]

In the Us- they still have Company Pensions- I get one and the company still offers them. My daughter who works in healthcare in the US also is going to get one.  There has been a decline but about 30% of Companies still offer them.  Once received- they are  for life, guaranteed by the  Pension guarantee fund.  In addition, police, firemen; teachers and many other State; County and Federal employees get lifetime pensions- some from Government and some from private annuity Corporations.

[totally thaied up]

1 hour ago, onera1961 said:

(who on earth receives pension at the age of 50?)

I do and it is a pension. Due to my illness, it is guaranteed at this time until I am 65 and then I have a choice of going onto an old age pension. 

 

Within the next 10 years, due to inheritance factors, I will likely lose this pension and be given a monthly stipend. It depends if my sister is made the head of the Trust instead (an I cannot see me being head) but my pension can be reinstated if my cash threshold goes below a certain point. The crux to this all is I can show if I wished a Government pension every month but I am damn sure Immigration would not take into account my Trust payments (loans owed to me). I don't make the required 40K in Government Pension, so cash only is needed for me. Due to my disorder, I am only given so much money every month (In general, my Government Pension is the only thing I currently have control over in my life). 

 

Yes, some of us are on pensions at an early age. I wish I was not but that is just how it is. The Trust pays for my insurance every year at this current time, so I am covered in that respect and not 'flying on a wing and a prayer'.

[joeyg]

It just hit me, from a guy that never balanced a check book.  The 800,000 bhat is only tied up for 3 months.  If I decide to stay, I can just live off of it the rest of the year and top it up to 800,000 3 months before the next annual retirement renewal.  I believe an earlier poster pointed out the same thing in a previous post.  

 

However, it does mean that those that don't have it have to leave right?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, joeyg said:

It just hit me, from a guy that never balanced a check book.  The 800,000 bhat is only tied up for 3 months.  If I decide to stay, I can just live off of it the rest of the year and top it up to 800,000 3 months before the next annual retirement renewal.  I believe an earlier poster pointed out the same thing in a previous post.  

 

However, it does mean that those that don't have it have to leave right?

As of yet no, we don't know what will happen in 2019 so you'll have to put the champagne on hold for now.

[joeyg]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

As of yet no, we don't know what will happen in 2019 so you'll have to put the champagne on hold for now.

Understood but based on the info we have at this point is my conjecture correct?  Seems like just dropping in the 800,000 is the path of least resistance.

[fforest1]

9 minutes ago, joeyg said:

Understood but based on the info we have at this point is my conjecture correct?  Seems like just dropping in the 800,000 is the path of least resistance.

Hey lets all get Thai citizenship and then we never need visas again....

[Spidey]

Just now, fforest1 said:

Hey lets all get Thai citizenship and then we never need visas again....

I wish!

[joeyg]

2 minutes ago, fforest1 said:

Hey lets all get Thai citizenship and then we never need visas again....

Good one.  We needed some comic relief...

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, joeyg said:

Understood but based on the info we have at this point is my conjecture correct?  Seems like just dropping in the 800,000 is the path of least resistance.

not exactly least resistance, there is a social aspect to all this. I posted a few hours ago how my missus met my IO by chance in Tesco's, she explained about my worries if the German embassy ever stopped issuing the letter, his response was he has dealt with me for years, knows my income, knows I have a Thai son and support a family, we aren't going to kick him out because of a missing letter, things will get resolved. Of course he isn't high up and works the desk but it shows a concerned attitude, it may mean something or nothing but I found it positive. 

[joeyg]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

not exactly least resistance, there is a social aspect to all this. I posted a few hours ago how my missus met my IO by chance in Tesco's, she explained about my worries if the German embassy ever stopped issuing the letter, his response was he has dealt with me for years, knows my income, knows I have a Thai son and support a family, we aren't going to kick him out because of a missing letter, things will get resolved. Of course he isn't high up and works the desk but it shows a concerned attitude, it may mean something or nothing but I found it positive. 

Understood.  In my case though is this conclusion correct? 

"It just hit me, from a guy that never balanced a check book.  The 800,000 bhat is only tied up for 3 months.  If I decide to stay, I can just live off of it the rest of the year and top it up to 800,000 3 months before the next annual retirement renewal.

[pookiki]

4 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Look lads..hopefully some if the Mods will be able to have a meeting with the Thai Immigration top brass to try and formulate..THE WAY FORWARD.
Until any meeting takes place..anything else said in the various threads of the TVForum is all maybe's/I think this/that etc.
Thinking positively, hopefully things could be resolved to everyone's benefit.
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Why is it up to TVF 'Mods' to represent us at Thai Immigration??  Are they our advocates or are we going to advocate for ourselves??

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, joeyg said:

Understood.  In my case though is this conclusion correct? 

"It just hit me, from a guy that never balanced a check book.  The 800,000 bhat is only tied up for 3 months.  If I decide to stay, I can just live off of it the rest of the year and top it up to 800,000 3 months before the next annual retirement renewal.

yes I think so, good way to go.

[joeyg]

2 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Why is it up to TVF 'Mods' to represent us at Thai Immigration??  Are they our advocates or are we going to advocate for ourselves??

I believe this part was "tongue in cheek."  Look lads..hopefully some if the Mods will be able to have a meeting with the Thai Immigration top brass to try and formulate..THE WAY FORWARD.

[malagateddy]

Me..I trust totally a couple of the Mods to ask the pertinent questions..get answers then tell everyone whats what via the forum.
I honestly think that they would have a better chance of managing to get a meeting with the Thai Imm. top brass than eg..you..me..or any other poster of the Forum.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[pookiki]

21 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Me..I trust totally a couple of the Mods to ask the pertinent questions..get answers then tell everyone whats what via the forum.
I honestly think that they would have a better chance of managing to get a meeting with the Thai Imm. top brass than eg..you..me..or any other poster of the Forum.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The issue must be clarified with our respective embassies before we start asking for clarification from Thai Immigration.  Our embassies unilaterally decided to stop issuing the letters when other embassies have not noted any problems whatsoever.  If the issue is with Thai Immigration, the embassies should continue to issue the letters and then leave the ball with Thai Immigration to say when they will cease to accept the letters.  To me, all the embassies jumped the gun and much to our detriment.

 

As others have noted, we are headed for a two-tier system of visa extensions.

[The Truth]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Western Expats in Thailand spend money into the economy.  We don't earn it here and send it out.  There is no comparison.

 

But, I think many, like yourself, do not understand the dynamics that occurred to millions of Americans, which are driving the current climate.  As someone with a lifetime on the "working-class" side of the political-spectrum, I had my careers wrecked - one after the other - by both outsourcing and mass-immigration.  I don't blame the immigrant pawns in the game as individuals / "bad people," but there is no doubt that, as a group, they were used to check-mate my options for a decent life in the USA. 

 

Those with global interests, have increased profits by a "managed decline" of the American standard-of-living.  From the early 1990s until 2016, they managed both political parties, and left working-folks with no voice what so ever.  Then, a rich, uncouth loudmouth saw the ball laying in the middle of the field, picked it up, and said what millions of Americans - their lives and families in shambles from what had been done - had been screaming for decades to no avail. 

 

The response of the global-faction, who own literally everything, including nearly all media, was to scream insults / name-call / demonize citizens who simply wanted their former middle-class lives back.  Many people with good intentions - either part of a group not yet thrown under-the-bus, or young enough to have never experienced what life was like pre-globalization, believed the name-calling was true.

 

This dynamic - not any individual politician - has split the USA between these factions.  Those who have direct-experience of globalization's harm will not have that memory erased by being called a bigot, or whatnot - they will just get more and more angry.  Maybe, someday, they will even match the level of violence of the "antifa" faction.

 

The fact is this:  If recent-immigrants (legal and illegal) left my country, today, millions could return to the good-life we had - a life that was intentionally ripped away by the govt-policies of open-borders coupled with the elimination of long-standing trade-barriers.  As well, the younger generation - who never knew what it was like to work and save in the USA, might see a viable alternative to socialism.

 

There are two factors as to the population-decline.  Many aren't having many children, because it is not our cultural makeup to bring large numbers of one's children into poverty.  This is especially true in the USA - where, when asked in surveys, young people say they "cannot afford" to start families.  As well, automation is quickly replacing labor, so large numbers of "new workers" are redundant.  Only some govt-ponzi-schemes are at risk - though those could be re-structured to take automation into account.

 

Some, at the top, don't think they should "have to pay" for "workers" to have a middle-class lives.  Once the labor-pool significantly outstrips demand, wages drop to bare-subsistence, which is what those at the top prefer to pay.  As most from our culture won't put up with poverty (see the history of the struggle / building of the Western middle-class), we are being replaced by those who have demonstrated that they will put up with it - generation after generation. 

 

The American middle class died because it had skills belonging to the last century.

There aren't millions of jobs available for people to assemble or spray paint cars any more. 

The well-paying jobs are in coding etc, not digging for 'clean' coal (despite Mr. Trump's efforts to placate the hicks).

People need to train for the jobs of the 21st Century and stop complaining about the lack of demand for skills from the 20th.

 

[pookiki]

I, for one, believe we must deal with this issue directly with our embassies and seek an equitable solution that will keep the 'affidavit' system intact.  In addition, I don't want a situation where we pressure Thai Immigration so much on this issue that it will affect other embassies that are not part of this controversy.  There is no reason to affect others who are not now being adversely affected. To me, that is the absolutely wrong way to bring resolution to the this matter.

[Curt1591]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Sorry, I've gone back and read more of your prior posts, and still come away unclear...

 

Based on your conversation with the IOs at CW Immigration...

 

They will or will not accept if you take your Social Security and other income that gets deposited into your U.S. accounts every month, and then you yourself do a monthly transfer of 40K or 65K into a Thai bank account, and then use the Thai bank book to satisfy Immigration?

 

Or, are they somehow insisting that the SOURCE of the monthly transfer has to come direct from the income provider, like Social Security?

 

I don't know, didn't ask, and don't care to speculate. Too much speculation happening already.

[fforest1]

9 minutes ago, The Truth said:

 

The American middle class died because it had skills belonging to the last century.

There aren't millions of jobs available for people to assemble or spray paint cars any more. 

The well-paying jobs are in coding etc, not digging for 'clean' coal (despite Mr. Trump's efforts to placate the hicks).

People need to train for the jobs of the 21st Century and stop complaining about the lack of demand for skills from the 20th.

 

I hate to tell you this but after every guy and his brother become a coder coding will be paying about as good as McDonald french fry cooks... 

[Curt1591]

5 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Sorry, I was trying to follow your chain of posts on going to CW, but can't track this one...

 

What were the "alternative solutions" that the staff at CW suggested to you, after saying your U.S. income statements would not be accepted?

 

Also, I couldn't quite follow what you recounted:  are you saying according to Immigration that the transfer of funds into Thailand was going to have to come direct from an income source like Social Security, or it also could come from the applicant transferring their own resources. (In other words, are they saying no to the applicant doing their own 40K or 65K bank transfers into Thailand each month?)

 

There are lots of sources of legitimate income, at least what has been legitimate income in the past, that the recipients have no ability have direct deposited into Thailand by the paying entity. My government pension, for example, will only pay into a U.S. bank account or mail me a paper check -- no other option available.

 

 

Although I really didn't ask these specifics, and the supervisor didn't specify.

[samran]

Lots of wishful thinking on this thread. It scares me to say this, but I’ve been a member of TV since 2003. 

 

The concept of TV ‘expats’ organizing makes me chuckle. Most couldn’t organise a root in a brothel yet now expect to become professional lobbyists.

 

Over the years ham fisted attempts have been posted here on TV. The most memorable being ‘expat’ meetings at a subway sandwich shop around nana from memory. These meetings lasted all of 3 weeks. I must admit in their first week they managed to drag along some low ranking random policeman who happened to be related someone’s ‘connected’ teerak  at the time. Based on the pictures I saw, the poor copper sat there like a stunned mullet as people let steam off the chest and I think they only let him go after he promised to speak to ‘higher ups’. Which of course in his case meant his traffic warden boss in Minburi. 

 

While the embassy stat dec (as the aussies would call it) has been used my many legitimate retirees, people have to face facts it was open to rorting, and many did rort  it. Thai immigration have finally done something about this loophole so all that is left is for people to change their financial arrangements if they hope to stay.

 

For those who don’t trust Thai banks? Tough titties. Immigration do and that is all that matters.

 

i mean the system is generous enough as it is. Very few countries are going to let you stay more or less indefinitely on the basis of chucking a measly $25k (give or take) into a bank account.

 

[malagateddy]

I, for one, believe we must deal with this issue directly with our embassies and seek an equitable solution that will keep the 'affidavit' system intact.  In addition, I don't want a situation where we pressure Thai Immigration so much on this issue that it will affect other embassies that are not part of this controversy.  There is no reason to affect others who are not now being adversely affected. To me, that is the absolutely wrong way to bring resolution to the this matter.

Being a Brit. .. I honestly do not think that the British Embassy will do anything..that's my gut feeling.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Curt1591 said:

I don't know, didn't ask, and don't care to speculate. Too much speculation happening already.

 

So you talked to them about your Social Security benefit, and knew that right now it couldn't be direct deposited by SS to Thailand. But never broached the issue of what if YOU turned around and forwarded the same funds yourself into a Thai bank account???

 

So, what DID you come away with clarity about in terms of what the IOs there said would be acceptable?

 

You mentioned before about transfer to a Thai bank account from a foreign financial institution. Well, if you sent your SS funds from a U.S. bank, that would be a transfer from a foreign financial institution, unless they meant the payor and the sender had to be the same entity.

 

BTW, I much appreciate your responses. I'm just trying to reconcile your answers now with the prior posts you made on the same topic...

 

[The Truth]

6 minutes ago, samran said:

While the embassy stat dec (as the aussies would call it) has been used my many legitimate retirees, people have to face facts it was open to rorting, and many did rort  it. Thai immigration have finally done something about this loophole so all that is left is for people to change their financial arrangements if they hope to stay.

 

For those who don’t trust Thai banks? Tough titties. Immigration do and that is all that matters.

 

This.

[Curt1591]

6 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I think that's Thai Immigration's side of the story, or at least the staff you were talking to. But I don't think it's the whole story or a particularly accurate version of the story.

 

Clearly, based on the statements made by the embassies, there were meetings in recent months with Thai Immigration where Immigration supposedly demanded some higher form of income verification, and indicated they were not going to continue to accept letters issued by those embassies using their current methods. So if any of that is true, it's not simply a case of the embassies willy nilly deciding to stop issuing income letters.

 

However, if what the staff at CW told you is correct, then we would be headed toward a double-standard situation where most other countries' embassies will continue issuing income letters that Immigration will accept using methods no more verifiable than those used by the British Embassy, at least. And meanwhile, American, Brits and Aussies will get screwed.

 

So one has to wonder, why has Thai Immigration decided to single out those three embassies/nationalities and leave all the others undisturbed?

"I think that's Thai Immigration's side of the story, or at least the staff you were talking to. But I don't think it's the whole story or a particularly accurate version of the story."

I got this "story" from the woman who does the final sign off and hands over the extension stamped passports. Because we were the first in queue, after lunch, she wasn't rushed with any work on her desk as of yet. She wasn't trying brush us aside.

Personally, I'll take her word on it. 

"However, if what the staff at CW told you is correct, then we would be headed toward a double-standard situation where most other countries' embassies will continue issuing income letters that Immigration will accept using methods no more verifiable than those used by the British Embassy, at least. And meanwhile, American, Brits and Aussies will get screwed."

I can't speak for British or Australian citizens. But, as a US citizen, all I can say is "Welcome to America."

"So one has to wonder, why has Thai Immigration decided to single out those three embassies/nationalities and leave all the others undisturbed?"

 

Has Thai immigration singled out anyone?

Maybe The US embassy is staffed with anti-Trumpers, doing this to spite Trump's attempts at immigration reform. Maybe the British embassy is staffed with spiteful anti-Brexit individuals. As far as Oz is concerned, they follow the UK. 

[totally thaied up]

25 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I, for one, believe we must deal with this issue directly with our embassies and seek an equitable solution that will keep the 'affidavit' system intact.  In addition, I don't want a situation where we pressure Thai Immigration so much on this issue that it affect other embassies that are not part of this controversy.  There is no reason to affect others who are not now being adversely affected. To me, that is the absolutely wrong way to bring resolution to the this matter.

First off, it was the Thais that asked to 'firm up' the verification. The Embassies cannot do this. Under privacy laws that stand for good reasons, they cannot do it. How can they 'declare' this is 100% foolproof?

 

They cannot.

 

The Thais have asked for this proof and we cannot 100% give them the proof they require unless it is cash in the bank.

 

The affidavit system is flawed and unless the Embassies can get electronic data directly from our Governments/Pension providers or stocks/tax (and the privacy laws as they should be would not allow that), it is impossible to do. Printouts would not do.

 

Unless they (the Embassies) do a massive backflip and give the bird to Immigration, nothing will be done. It has been a massive loophole for years. Sure, I don't like it but the rules are now being enforced and until someone from the top either confirm's this or denies this, we just have to wait till next year. 

 

I think cash is going to be the winner but it is just like all of this thread, PURE speculation. 

 

For the rest of us Aussies, I can get my pension put in to my Bangkok Bank Account (with it showing it came from the Government Reserve) but because we don't make enough money to clear the 65/40 (some might just clear the 40), it is a waste of time as we don't meet the requirements. 

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, samran said:

While the embassy stat dec (as the aussies would call it) has been used my many legitimate retirees, people have to face facts it was open to rotting. Thai immigration have finally done something about this loophole so all that is left is for people to change their financial arrangements if they hope to stay.

Too much emphasis has been put on expats who may have cheated.  IMO- this is a minority of people= To me the issue is more to the fact that  the Embassies simply said NO and so far it is 3. 

Where is the negotiation that should have taken place about how to preserve the letter and to some extent meet the Thai Imm to some degree. 

If I was negotiating this- I would politely explained to Thai Imm the impossibility of  100% verification and explain that taking an Oath and lying places the burden on the applicant.  Thai Imm can ask for added proof and if a lie found- refer back to the Embassy  FBI or AFP for possible recommendation of prosecution and advertise you have done it. 

A few referrals back to the FBI or Australian Federal Police would   most likely eliminate almost all liars.  Big Jok can also  have his photo taken with the perpetrators.

 

At the very least- now we are left with a Thai Imm department that is struggling with how to handle this issue. There is now reason for the 3 Embassies to go back now- when they have obviously read how upset so many citizens are- and ask for a 1 year reprieve on the letters. That would give everyone time to adjust; make plans; discuss relevant options and allow Thai Imm to discuss their options.  What is the rush!! No other Embassies are rushing to end letters

[fforest1]

Thai immigration have finally done something about this loophole .... 

 

For 3 Countries that is....

Thai Immigration will probably backtrack and restore the loophole for every one....