EU proposes to send an army of observers to February election

[Jimbo1964]

This should read. The EU are sending people to Thailand for a holiday, paid for by EU citizens who are dictated to by an unelected president and commisson.

[Odysseus123]

2 minutes ago, 8OA8 said:

They're probably thinking along the lines of we've a one off bonus of £39 billion coming into the EU coffers soon and it's probably not been allocated to any particular area yet, so why not take the tropical trip, and if the £39 billion doesn't materialise because of some fools back in the HQ it's really not a big deal as they can add it onto Ireland's bill the following year 

Sure..

 

Hang in there.

[Brunolem]

13 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Everyone in the EU commission are elected.

Source please???

 

This source says otherwise, using the word "nominated"...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

[Eric Loh]

7 minutes ago, Jimbo1964 said:

This should read. The EU are sending people to Thailand for a holiday, paid for by EU citizens who are dictated to by an unelected president and commisson.

Still good to have foreign observers. Don’t expect the junta to play fair in the election. 

[Becker]

11 minutes ago, Jimbo1964 said:

This should read. The EU are sending people to Thailand for a holiday, paid for by EU citizens who are dictated to by an unelected president and commisson.

As has been said earlier;

 

[PatOngo]

20 hours ago, webfact said:

EU proposes to send an army of observers to February election

Someone please tell them, there's only room for one army in Thailand!

[jayboy]

43 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

 

 

It won't be fair, and thegovernment has no interest in making it fair. The job of this government is merely to create the illusion of it being fair so the foreigners, who don't and can't understand 'Thainess' will carry on buying Thai shrimps and sending un-needed military aid to line a few generals' pockets.

 

Same as normal, no point in getting all serious about it, it's the way the Thai culture has been guided for decades.

Too simplistic and uninformed to make much sense. I don't buy the "Thainess" argument if it's meant to suggest Thai elites act in a special way that needs to be studied carefully to understand. Thai elites act like any other set of elites, instinctively greedy and reluctant to share power. Like other elites, they will eventually be forced to compromise. They could be smart like the nineteenth-century British elite which negotiated and kept most of its wealth and some of its power. Or they could be stupid like the pre-1917 Russian elite and be annihilated.

[Odysseus123]

11 minutes ago, Becker said:

As has been said earlier;

 

Bang on.

 

No 'Finest Hour' now.

 

 

[HalfLight]

14 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Too simplistic and uninformed to make much sense. I don't buy the "Thainess" argument if it's meant to suggest Thai elites act in a special way that needs to be studied carefully to understand. Thai elites act like any other set of elites, instinctively greedy and reluctant to share power. Like other elites, they will eventually be forced to compromise. They could be smart like the nineteenth-century British elite which negotiated and kept most of its wealth and some of its power. Or they could be stupid like the pre-1917 Russian elite and be annihilated.

"Too simplistic and uninformed to make much sense."

 

Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their view.

 

"I don't buy the "Thainess" argument if it's meant to suggest Thai elites act in a special way that needs to be studied carefully to understand. "

 

Not really what I said.

 

"Thai elites act like any other set of elites, instinctively greedy and reluctant to share power. Like other elites, they will eventually be forced to compromise. "

 

One day. Not today.

 

"They could be smart like the nineteenth-century British elite which negotiated and kept most of its wealth and some of its power. Or they could be stupid like the pre-1917 Russian elite and be annihilated"

 

Agreed, the Russian elites bought into the whole 'sppointed by God' nonsense at the direct behest of the churches, which stood to gain wealth and power. Same as UK, same as every country since the dark ages. Same as Thailand.

 

People are laughable really, tell them about the great spaghetti monster in the sky and they'll beat a path to your door. Same as my dog really. I tell him to shake hands and he shakes my hand. Without even knowing what shaking my hand means. Pavlovian response, the daft sod'll do anything for food. Same as people, tell 'em they won't die when they die and they'll be yours forever. Every religion knows this well and has profited greatlty from that one deception.

 

The elites are just answering the call of nature, everyone of them an excellent demonstration that Pavlov was right in ways even Pavlov had not thought about. More money=more power=more attractive to women/men=snagged a better mate=more successful offspring. Evolution is a wonderful thing.

 

People are not hard to understand.

 

All people.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by HalfLight

[Odysseus123]

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Too simplistic and uninformed to make much sense. I don't buy the "Thainess" argument if it's meant to suggest Thai elites act in a special way that needs to be studied carefully to understand. Thai elites act like any other set of elites, instinctively greedy and reluctant to share power. Like other elites, they will eventually be forced to compromise. They could be smart like the nineteenth-century British elite which negotiated and kept most of its wealth and some of its power. Or they could be stupid like the pre-1917 Russian elite and be annihilated.

Good points-however the Thai 'elites'-for want of  a better name-have never really displayed any real desire to compromise.

 

They have intimated-extremely strongly-throughout their ?22 military coups that they want their cake and to eat it too.

 

The Americans saved their bacon in  the 60's and sundry others have been playing the game ever since.

 

That is why Thailand remains a 3rd World country recognizable only to Prince Potemkin and nobody else.

[HHTel]

34 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Source please???

 

This source says otherwise, using the word "nominated"...

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Read your own source and tell me where they are not elected.  Nominated is by agreement with other 28 members, all who have been elected.

[HalfLight]

2 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Good points-however the Thai 'elites'-for want of  a better name-have never really displayed any real desire to compromise.

 

They have intimated-extremely strongly-throughout their ?22 military coups that they want their cake and to eat it too.

 

The Americans saved their bacon in  the 60's and sundry others have been playing the game ever since.

 

That is why Thailand remains a 3rd World country recognizable only to Prince Potemkin and nobody else.

 

Quite right on all points. Th elites are not for compromising. Evolution isn't about compromise, it's about winning.

 

 

[Eric Loh]

17 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

Good points-however the Thai 'elites'-for want of  a better name-have never really displayed any real desire to compromise.

 

They have intimated-extremely strongly-throughout their ?22 military coups that they want their cake and to eat it too.

 

The Americans saved their bacon in  the 60's and sundry others have been playing the game ever since.

 

That is why Thailand remains a 3rd World country recognizable only to Prince Potemkin and nobody else.

Think it’s the military elites that are the real obstacle to compromise and co-existence. Rest of the elites are actually quite small in numbers. 

[Odysseus123]

8 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

 

Quite right on all points. Th elites are not for compromising. Evolution isn't about compromise, it's about winning.

 

 

Hmm..

 

But a hell of a lot of evolution IS about compromising-a tweak her a change there..often there isn't anything dramatic going on...

 

The fact of the matter is that Thai politics has not 'evolved' either on a village or a national level.My American friend stationed here in the 60's confirms this as we are talking about exactly the  same thing..

 

It has never been able to evolve as it should and its commitment to Western ideals is a total sham.It has no concept of 'pluralism' whatsovever...and neither does it's geographical partners.

[Brunolem]

21 minutes ago, HHTel said:

Read your own source and tell me where they are not elected.  Nominated is by agreement with other 28 members, all who have been elected.

This is called being appointed..

Being elected means that you get your legitimacy directly from the people, the voters.

Being appointed by elected representatives doesn't make you elected...that kind of transfer doesn't exist.

 

Otherwise, we could also say that all the members of the goverment are elected, since they are appointed either by a president, a prime minister or a congress which have been elected.

 

The only elected representatives at EU level are the members of the EU parliament, which have basically no power at all!

Edited November 9, 2018 by Brunolem

[monkfish]

Amazing how many people still don't understand how the EU works.
Personally I am against the EU in its current state but certainly not because its undemocratic I just prefer it when there were Borders and and each country had its own currency and laws and culture.
 

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Think it’s the military elites that are the real obstacle to compromise and co-existence. Rest of the elites are actually quite small in numbers. 

That may be so and I am willing to entertain the idea..

 

One forgets that the Thai military is based on the Turkish/Mongol/Chinese concept of land for service..they are very big economic players.

[jayboy]

 
Quite right on all points. Th elites are not for compromising. Evolution isn't about compromise, it's about winning.
 
 

That’s what the dinosaurs thought.Actually evolution is about adaptation, or to put it another way - compromise.



Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[HalfLight]

4 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Think it’s the military elites that are the real obstacle to compromise and co-existence. Rest of the elites are actually quite small in numbers. 

 

True, however they try to compensate for their smallness by aligning themselves with the guy at the top, and (they think) through him with the armed forces.

 

Which is a strategy which may yet backfire.

[HalfLight]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

That’s what the dinosaurs thought.Actually evolution is about adaptation, or to put it another way - compromise.



Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Don't agree. Adaptation is how evolution brings about change. Allegedy. evolution is a hypothesis, not a fact. The initiator of evolutionary change is not the same thing and that is what I was referring to.

Edited November 9, 2018 by HalfLight

[Odysseus123]

4 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

This is called being appointed..

Being elected means that you get your legitimacy directly from the people, the voters.

Being appointed by elected representatives doesn't make you elected...that kind of transfer doesn't exist.

 

Otherwise, we could also say that all the members of the goverment are elected, since they are appointed either by a president, a prime minister or a congress which have been elected.

 

The only elected representatives at EU level are the members of the EU parliament, which have basically no power at all!

Pointless,distracting,irrelevant and utterly boring.,.

 

Do you think that the EU (or  anybody) should offer observers for the forthcoming (ho ho)  election or not?Or should the noble Thai 'monitor' them for themselves?

 

Let me offer the services of the emperor penguins of Adelaide Island.

 

Totally incorruptible unless you offer them fresh fish.

[HalfLight]

27 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

The fact of the matter is that Thai politics has not 'evolved' either on a village or a national level.My American friend stationed here in the 60's confirms this as we are talking about exactly the  same thing..

 

It has never been able to evolve as it should and its commitment to Western ideals is a total sham.It has no concept of 'pluralism' whatsovever...and neither does it's geographical partners.

 

This at least is something we can agree upon, otherwise we're not talking about the same thing.

[Ulic]

Just another 5-star junket for EU officials. 

[Srikcir]

48 minutes ago, robblok said:

But now they have China and China does not care about anything.

As a practical matter:

Exports from Thailand to China decreased 14.1% year-on-year in September 2018.

Also recall: Thailand will pay heavy price for over-reliance on China (2018-11-07)

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/opinion/30358048

Furthermore,

• In 2017 the European Union agreed to resume its political contacts with Thailand including free trade agreement negotiations provided that Thailand return to democracy through a credible election.
• This agreement was necessary as Thailand had lost its Generalized System of Preferences for exports to the EU and the agreement revitalized negotiations for Thailand's previous favorable GSP rates and hopefully update Thailand's status with the EU on Thailand's full IUU fishing compliance.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/Economy/30347271

https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Thailand-scraps-new-economic-zones-and-plans-regional-linkups

 

Denying EU election observers¹ for the next election potentially puts at risk Thailand's economy in the near term from possible EU retaliation. See EU's adverse reaction to Cambodia's recent elections.

 

¹200-400 observers is not an army vs Thai Army ISOC being dispersed nationwide to assure "election peace" deserves foreign monitoring in situ. Note that in comparison tiny Haiti's Presidential Election in 2017 there were 1,505 French Citizen Observatory for the Institutionalization of Democracy (OCID) field observers in 1,203 polling stations from morning to night. https://haitiliberte.com/how-electoral-observers-evaluated-haitis-nov-20-2016-election/
 

[Eric Loh]

21 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

 

True, however they try to compensate for their smallness by aligning themselves with the guy at the top, and (they think) through him with the armed forces.

 

Which is a strategy which may yet backfire.

I would opine that there was more influencing than alignment during those latter years that he was incapacitated. New sheriff in town and that strategy may not work. Perhaps more important for him to preserve power and wealth and isolate the threats.   

[Brunolem]

13 minutes ago, Odysseus123 said:

 

 

Do you think that the EU (or  anybody) should offer observers for the forthcoming (ho ho)  election or not?Or should the noble Thai 'monitor' them for themselves?

 

 

Observers, if requested, should certainly not belong to highly biased political entities like the EU, but rather belong to more independent organizations, emanating from the UN for example.

 

Jimmy Carter has been involved in election monitoring for decades and would certainly be able to point the Thai authorities toward the most appropriate organizations, if they so wished...

[HalfLight]

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

I would opine that there was more influencing than alignment during those latter years that he was incapacitated. New sheriff in town and that strategy may not work. Perhaps more important for him to preserve power and wealth and isolate the threats.   

 

I think you're probably right. The appetite for influence once access is achieved can be all-consuming and persuade that one is more influential and important than one actually is.

 

On another tack, it is said that a fish rots from the head down.

 

I have no idea what that means though...

[Odysseus123]

11 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Observers, if requested, should certainly not belong to highly biased political entities like the EU, but rather belong to more independent organizations, emanating from the UN for example.

 

Jimmy Carter has been involved in election monitoring for decades and would certainly be able to point the Thai authorities toward the most appropriate organizations, if they so wished...

Oh,I see..

 

The rest of the world maybe kinda biased.

 

And..if only they  are requested.

 

Eat your heart out Myanmar and Cambodia.

 

Denial,Projection and Displacement.The usual stuff of tyrannies.

 

"X" is no good but "Y" will do us fine..hold on.."Y" ain't so good..

 

How about "Z" -"Z" should be pretty good..

 

Running out of letters in  the alphabet.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Odysseus123

[Baerboxer]

21 hours ago, The traveler said:

EU?? EU?? The anti democratic union going to anti-democratic Thailand to watch the election, maybe the EU should clean their own backyard first and stop their tyranny. The EU are a bunch of unelected bureaucrats, one thing is good about EU is trade, their view on trade,but we don’t need a parliament, a common currency, many overpaid bureaucrats to do trade with each other.

 

Watch how they bullying Britain for leaving their union, then you understand their intentions.

 

 

let some from US,Canada,Australia or New Zealand to watch the election, those countries are actually democratic.

 

200-400 of the chosen ones looking for a nice very well paid comfortable holiday at EU taxpayer expense. Nothing new here.

[Pilotman]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

Are you arguing that an election followed by a coup is how democracy works in most countries? 

 

Spain was stable under fascist Franco, North Korea is stable under Kim.  Does that make these systems preferable to democracy?

 

You neglected to address my point about military rule on behalf of the elites won't correct social inequity.

I said that democracy, as practised in most western countries, doesn't seem to work for Thailand.  To compare the military government here to the countries you quote is preposterous.