Bell Siphon Big Size

[user343434]

Hi all,

 

I can't get my head around with that one.

Since 4 weeks I have calculated as Google says but every day a new Number like my Girls..

 

Does anyone know the math?

 

This is my best outcome, popped up twice but I am sure I forgot something. 

 

Gravel Volume is calculated 60% 

Pump Flow during Cycle also but there is a hook I forgot, I am sure.. 

Please Help..

 

Cheers 

 

Will

 

[Crossy]

Moving to Farming as someone there may have an idea what this is all about ????

 

[owl sees all]

I can help, but I'm not sure of your figures. Am I correct in thinking that the water pump' discharge  is 530,000 litres an hour. That is some pump you have there if i've read it right. 530 m3 an hour is massive.

 

Please elaborate.

[user343434]

59 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I can help, but I'm not sure of your figures. Am I correct in thinking that the water pump' discharge  is 530,000 litres an hour. That is some pump you have there if i've read it right. 530 m3 an hour is massive.

 

Please elaborate.

yes mate, that's right. Its planned for a an aquaponics system with 432 cbm fish tanks and minimum required is 1 complete water exchange per hr.

The figures for the pumps came from Beru Pumps in the Netherlands but with the bell siphon they couldn't be much of help. 

[sappersrest]

You really need to be a bit more descriptive in what you are trying to achieve no of fish tanks  and size size.

What sort of flow through the filter beds., 12 beds @ ? Cubic meters per hour per bed.

Are you sure of your sizes a 430 cubic meter tanks equates to a 25m commercial swimming pool.

[MikeN]

First up, 60cms is deeper than most grow beds that are usually around 30cm of media but if you do want that size it is 6180L volume per bed, of which around 30% is water, =1854L.

1854L *12 beds =22248, * 4/hour =89,000 liter/hour approx.

 So your pump is massively oversized compared to the grow beds ! You could have six times as many grow beds with that flow rate. What is your main aim, fish or vegetables ? If you want to maximize the fish side of things those grow beds will not be enough, if the grow beds are the limiting factor do not overstock with fish.

 But according to the calculator at engineeringtoolbox.com a container of your size specs (with 120mm stand pipe) should gravity drain in about 7 minutes, which should be about right. The siphon should be twice the diameter of the standpipe.

 I think the numbers are right, but this is something you are going to have to test with trial and error, set up one tank to check and upsize the pipe if needed. Install valves for flow control into the beds, and divert the excess flow from the pump through a bio filter and spray back into the fish tank to help aeration.

Good luck !

Edited November 9, 2018 by MikeN

[user343434]

10 hours ago, sappersrest said:

You really need to be a bit more descriptive in what you are trying to achieve no of fish tanks  and size size.

What sort of flow through the filter beds., 12 beds @ ? Cubic meters per hour per bed.

Are you sure of your sizes a 430 cubic meter tanks equates to a 25m commercial swimming pool.

 

8 hours ago, MikeN said:

First up, 60cms is deeper than most grow beds that are usually around 30cm of media but if you do want that size it is 6180L volume per bed, of which around 30% is water, =1854L.

1854L *12 beds =22248, * 4/hour =89,000 liter/hour approx.

 So your pump is massively oversized compared to the grow beds ! You could have six times as many grow beds with that flow rate. What is your main aim, fish or vegetables ? If you want to maximize the fish side of things those grow beds will not be enough, if the grow beds are the limiting factor do not overstock with fish.

 But according to the calculator at engineeringtoolbox.com a container of your size specs (with 120mm stand pipe) should gravity drain in about 7 minutes, which should be about right. The siphon should be twice the diameter of the standpipe.

 I think the numbers are right, but this is something you are going to have to test with trial and error, set up one tank to check and upsize the pipe if needed. Install valves for flow control into the beds, and divert the excess flow from the pump through a bio filter and spray back into the fish tank to help aeration.

Good luck !

I guess its better to involve a little drawing here. 

The Filter beds are the ones above. I want them that deep because of the Media Surface for the Nitrifying bacteria.

Followed below the 50m x 15m deep water grow beds

After the water will flow through the 8m x 57m x0.7m outside Duckweed grow beds.

 

under the floating rafts shall be Red Claw Crayfish find a home that's the reason to go everywhere deep

beside when it is cycled in its harder to get out of balance.

 

I am always open for suggestions, till end of 2020 Is sure room for improvements. 

Thanks for your help. 

 

 

[owl sees all]

5 hours ago, See Will said:

 

I guess its better to involve a little drawing here. 

The Filter beds are the ones above. I want them that deep because of the Media Surface for the Nitrifying bacteria.

Followed below the 50m x 15m deep water grow beds

After the water will flow through the 8m x 57m x0.7m outside Duckweed grow beds.

 

under the floating rafts shall be Red Claw Crayfish find a home that's the reason to go everywhere deep

beside when it is cycled in its harder to get out of balance.

 

I am always open for suggestions, till end of 2020 Is sure room for improvements. 

Thanks for your help. 

 

 

I like it. but I'm still unsure about the pump output. 530k litres/h is the best part of 150 litres/sec. It's gonna be hard to control things. I personally would look to be breaking the flow into stages, by using a couple of pumps and lots of gravity.

 

I'm thinking about the system. will get back.

 

Keep us informed please.

[grollies]

Mate, a single pump rated at 530m3/h is something like we used for trenching subsea pipelines.

 

There aren't many diesel pumps like that around, I owned two on V16 Detroit diesel engines, monsters.

 

Had two Neuhauser pumps in Libya shipped from Nederlands for flooding pipelines.

 

Are you looking/advised on a low pressure high flow pumphead on an electric motor? As others say above, you're going to have problems balancing one pump with a 10" suction and 8" discharge into 12 beds.

 

Have you considered 12 x 2" pumps should do 30m3/h each and cost around B3000 each.

 

Our Detroits were around GBP 250,000 each......

[user343434]

I have also made some calc about the pump. The Bedu (Netherlands has 560 cbm and also I was thinking to get a bunch of Mitsubishi hooked on the line.

The BEDU has btw 55KW which ain't bad for a size like that. 

The Plumbing side is a bit of a struggle for my mate and myself and every hint is very much appreciated.

May be I should have a closer look as the multiple pump solution came also first into my mind, then I found this beast.. The gravity thing is done but also for the fodder (Duckweed) grow beds outside the greenhouse I can't build up too much current.

The idea is blowing water into standpipes with holes in the bottom to create an undercurrent. Into the pipes I also want to put the air-stones to avoid surface movements. (In the long grow beds shall also Crayfish reared as you know.)

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by See Will
more info

[user343434]

Here a little description about the gravity, just the outside grow beds will be separated fed and back to the drum filter and sump skipping the fish tanks.

[MikeN]

Another reason to have smaller multiple pumps is to have a backup for breakdowns and maintenance.... you don’t want to have just one pump that breaks down in the middle of the night.

[grollies]

4 hours ago, MikeN said:

Another reason to have smaller multiple pumps is to have a backup for breakdowns and maintenance.... you don’t want to have just one pump that breaks down in the middle of the night.

Spot on. One out of 12 breakdown, 1 bed out, keep a spare pump. One pump for 12 beds breaksdown, 12 beds out and keeping a spare would be expensive.

[user343434]

Persuaded in that one.

I guess I wasn't following my own rule, first thoughts are always best thoughts.

I am also working offshore and this is my retirement plan after 35 years ????, 

Well offshore we have some Pumps I might have just lost the feeling for Sizes..

 

12 for the Filter beds and 1 for each duckweed bed. ) may be one that will implemented as emergency pump can be done by switching 4 valves to each grow bed and I could take out the broken one if that happens. 

Then that low to no current demand for Duckweed is also clarified then.

 

Looks like some people have interest here so I can post some more of from interest.

This is an "easy" one. I will grow a copious amount of Duckweed to cover at least 60% fish food costs.

Our Duckweed in our Test System is growing already 1 year throughout (my wife loves to eat it ???? I still have a bit counter reactions in my stomach as soon it touches my mouth, even it tastes a bit like watercress) but we found that a slight current and indirect air supply makes it about 600 grs/sqm per day.

 

But these micro plants go diving by the smallest sign of stress and it takes a few days to a week to make them returning to the surface.

 

Will that Pipe work as I think it will. Distribute 2 every 8 meters should reduce the current but supply enough oxygen for the red claw crayfish, should it?

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by See Will
typo