Karma

[Neeranam]

My Thai neighbor asked me to kill a problematic, dangerous dog as he was worried about his negative karma if he did the deed.

Wouldn't his karma be as bad by asking someone else to do it?

What about my karma, if I did it? Would it be less severe that killing the dog of my own free will?

Would it be any more negative than say buying pork sausages from the butcher? Is a pig a higher being than a dog?

Edited November 17, 2018 by Neeranam

[richard_smith237]

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

[mauGR1]

I believe Karma exists, i also think that it's very difficult to understand how it works.

If your heart is telling you that something is bad, it surely is, though.

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

Course there is....chicken in a mild coconut flavoured curry sauce.................and if it's in a pot noodle, John Lennon wrote a song about it .  lol

Edited November 17, 2018 by wgdanson

[mauGR1]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

..Colours don't exist for the one who cannot see though.

[sirmud63]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

oh its real forsure, and it works both ways .

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, sirmud63 said:

oh its real forsure, and it works both ways .

 

[Sheryl]

1. Yes, his karma would be just as bad.

 

2.You would be acting of your own free will, since nothing forces you to do what he asks. Same bad karma for you as for him.

 

3. Buddhist precepts refer to the killing of any sentient being, which both pigs and dogs are.  That said, karma is created by mental intentions and people buying meat often do so in ignorance/not really recognizing the connection between this and the killing of animals.

 

 

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

1. Yes, his karma would be just as bad.

 

2.You would be acting of your own free will, since nothing forces you to do what he asks. Same bad karma for you as for him.

 

3. Buddhist precepts refer to the killing of any sentient being, which both pigs and dogs are.  That said, karma is created by mental intentions and people buying meat often do so in ignorance/not really recognizing the connection between this and the killing of animals.

 

 

So what's the craic for us non-Buddhists please?

[Sheryl]

Just now, wgdanson said:

So what's the craic for us non-Buddhists please?

I don't know what "craic" means/is for anyone!

 

but I believe the question was asked with regard to Buddhist teaching.

 

 

[wgdanson]

Just now, Sheryl said:

I don't know what "craic" means/is for anyone!

 

but I believe the question was asked with regard to Buddhist teaching.

 

 

Sorry, craic is the Irish term for news, gossip, conversation.  And yes, his neighbour was probably asking from his Buddhist point of view.

[Neeranam]

19 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

Rather inappropriate thing to say on a Buddhist forum.

Of course karma exists. I've seen it when spending time in a temple in northern India,  where the Dalai Lama lives. More than half the world believe in it. All Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, and many Christians.

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

My Thai neighbor asked me to kill a problematic, dangerous dog as he was worried about his negative karma if he did the deed.

Personally I would question the moral fibre of the man. If karma is a real concept, what he's doing is offloading his karmic responsibly onto you. That's like conning some else into paying a speeding ticket you have acquired.

 

I would be tempted to say to him: 'If the dog bothers you so much, grow some balls and kill it yourself'.

[j0hnga1t]

I would say the both their karma would be the same.  But here is something to consider, you can never escape some sort of karma.  If you chose not to kill the dangerous dog when you had the chance and  the dog goes out and bites a person, does the dogs action cause you “bad” karma? What if that dog had rabies and people died from the bite?

 

I was walking around a Wat in Chiangmai two weeks ago and the abbot asked me and others to walk in silence for 20 minutes to see what we see.  When I was walking on the path, I noticed a lot of dead leaves on the ground.  I remember that I must be aware of living creatures, even ants and not cause harm.  With all the leaves on the ground, I’m sure i stepped on and killed some.  I then thought that it was impossible to not step on something eventhough i was being very mindful.  Then I realized that you cannot escape acts that generate bad karma.  For everything there are two sides.  All we can be in mindful/aware of our actions and chose the path that generates the least amount of bad karma.

[HAKAPALITA]

I prefer Vindaloo.You get your cumupance deserved or not in the morning..[emoji481][emoji85][emoji86]


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[rockyysdt]

Hi N.

 

Firstly, it's important to understand the word Karma (Pali: Kamma).

 

Karma is a Verb, not, as is commonly misconceived, ones destiny. 

 

A verb is a word/s associated with "action" or "doing".

 

So ones Karma is what someone does.

 

If you regularly practice Awareness, eventually you'll come to the realization that many of your "actions" are habitual.

You repeat many actions over and over again in life.

 

Depending on what they are, your habitual actions can have considerable affect.

For example, if you regularly eat a poor diet, live a sedentary lifestyle, smoke, and drink alcohol excessively, over time this can adversely affect you.

In this case, the specific Karma (Action) revolves around your lifestyle.

 

This will vary from person to person, but eventually one will experience the fruits of their Karma.

 

Vipaka is the ripening or maturation of the fruits of Karma.

 

Karma may involve us psychologically as well as physically.

 

The act of killing (dog) can cause one to become desensitized, even more so if done habitually. 

Living in a desensitized state can impact adversely on ones thoughts, feelings and consequently ones actions.

In other words it can drive more actions (Karma).

 

In making such a command, the one ordering the kill displays the actions of one already affected by previous actions (Karma).

Not only is this person already desensitized, they may also carry a level of Delusion.

 

When asked about Nirvana (Nibanna) and matters beyond our lives, the Buddha would not be drawn.

My description of Karma/Vipaka above illustrates how Karma can work in our everyday life.

Just as Nirvana is beyond our comprehension, so is how Karma/Vipaka works in shaping future lives (Re Birth).

 

But Karma/Vipaka can clearly be seen in our everyday lives.

 

Final Note: In terms of "belief", this is a trap.

                 The world is full of people who have beliefs.

                 Belief is a form of attachment.  

                 Rather than belief, the Buddha taught personal experience through practice.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

On 11/17/2018 at 5:57 PM, Moonlover said:

Personally I would question the moral fibre of the man. If karma is a real concept, what he's doing is offloading his karmic responsibly onto you. That's like conning some else into paying a speeding ticket you have acquired.

 

I would be tempted to say to him: 'If the dog bothers you so much, grow some balls and kill it yourself'.

That appears logical, and assuming karma is real, I think most people would agree with your statement.

However, if one considers the general practices of the religion of Buddhism, with thousands of ordained monks accepting food donations from the general population, and who are not allowed to grow their own food because they would inevitably kill worms and insects when tilling the fields, which would result in bad karma, are those monks not in the same moral position as the guy who asks his neighbour to kill the dog?

 

Isn't the monk effectively saying, or implicitly saying to the working population when he receives food in his bowl, "Please kill the worms and insects for me, because I will receive bad karma if I grow my own food and kill worms and insects. But it's okay for you to receive bad karma because you are at a lower level."

[Moonlover]

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

Isn't the monk effectively saying, or implicitly saying to the working population when he receives food in his bowl, "Please kill the worms and insects for me, because I will receive bad karma if I grow my own food and kill worms and insects. But it's okay for you to receive bad karma because you are at a lower level."

I completely agree with you. Personally I've no time for these lazy, conniving layabouts nor the religion they profess to follow.

 

The only 'work' they ever do is walk around the village scrounging food from the poorest and most naive of society and sweep leaves. (unless they can con someone else into doing that for them as well)

 

The example they set has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of the Buddha.

 

[wgdanson]

On 11/24/2018 at 2:16 PM, rockyysdt said:

Hi N.

 

Firstly, it's important to understand the word Karma (Pali: Kamma).

 

Karma is a Verb, not, as is commonly misconceived, ones destiny. 

 

A verb is a word/s associated with "action" or "doing".

 

So ones Karma is what someone does.

 

If you regularly practice Awareness, eventually you'll come to the realization that many of your "actions" are habitual.

You repeat many actions over and over again in life.

 

Depending on what they are, your habitual actions can have considerable affect.

For example, if you regularly eat a poor diet, live a sedentary lifestyle, smoke, and drink alcohol excessively, over time this can adversely affect you.

In this case, the specific Karma (Action) revolves around your lifestyle.

 

This will vary from person to person, but eventually one will experience the fruits of their Karma.

 

Vipaka is the ripening or maturation of the fruits of Karma.

 

Karma may involve us psychologically as well as physically.

 

The act of killing (dog) can cause one to become desensitized, even more so if done habitually. 

Living in a desensitized state can impact adversely on ones thoughts, feelings and consequently ones actions.

In other words it can drive more actions (Karma).

 

In making such a command, the one ordering the kill displays the actions of one already affected by previous actions (Karma).

Not only is this person already desensitized, they may also carry a level of Delusion.

 

When asked about Nirvana (Nibanna) and matters beyond our lives, the Buddha would not be drawn.

My description of Karma/Vipaka above illustrates how Karma can work in our everyday life.

Just as Nirvana is beyond our comprehension, so is how Karma/Vipaka works in shaping future lives (Re Birth).

 

But Karma/Vipaka can clearly be seen in our everyday lives.

 

Final Note: In terms of "belief", this is a trap.

                 The world is full of people who have beliefs.

                 Belief is a form of attachment.  

                 Rather than belief, the Buddha taught personal experience through practice.

 

 

 

Does this not depend on which team you bat for. In the Christian bible, the word Karma never appears. Is it in the Koran? Dunno. 

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Karma is a Verb, ....So ones Karma is what someone does.

You are using it as a NOUN here. If it was a VERB, ie To Karma, could you go Karma-ing?

Edited November 28, 2018 by wgdanson

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I completely agree with you. Personally I've no time for these lazy, conniving layabouts nor the religion they profess to follow.

 

The only 'work' they ever do is walk around the village scrounging food from the poorest and most naive of society and sweep leaves. (unless they can con someone else into doing that for them as well)

 

The example they set has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of the Buddha.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Some monks do behave badly, in relation to the Buddhist rules, but not all of them. They don't actually 'scrounge' food, but offer an opportunity to the common folk to be generous and compassionate in terms of giving. The people who drop food in the monks' alms bowls actually feel good about it, I suspect. The practice also creates a sense of communication between the monks and the Buddhist population.

 

What I object to is this concept that a monk should not attempt to grow his own food because he would almost certainly kill some worms and insects, inadvertently, with the consequences of bad karma, but he is quite willing for other people to kill worms and insects on his behalf, in order to feed him, the monk. The killing of sentient creatures presumably results in bad karma for anyone and everyone who does it.

 

 

[rockyysdt]

3 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Does this not depend on which team you bat for. In the Christian bible, the word Karma never appears. Is it in the Koran? Dunno. 

Not really.

 

If you became a member of a group which does not acknowledge the existence of gravity, will that stop you from falling if you jumped out of a tall building?

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Not really.

 

If you became a member of a group which does not acknowledge the existence of gravity, will that stop you from falling if you jumped out of a tall building?

No, but the group which I belong to does not acknowledge Karma, or the existence of God in any form. So that stops me from jumping out of a tall building.

[rockyysdt]

7 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

No, but the group which I belong to does not acknowledge Karma, or the existence of God in any form. So that stops me from jumping out of a tall building.

 

Yes, but my point was a general illustration.

 

An illustration of the possible consequences of living ones life based on belief, whether it relates to Karma or anything.

Edited November 28, 2018 by rockyysdt

[wgdanson]

5 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

 

Yes, but my point was a general illustration.

 

It's an illustration of the possible consequences of living ones life based on belief.

Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for, AND NO RELIGION TOO.

Imaging all the people living life in peace.

 

Was Mr Lennon right or not?

 

Then he wrote Instant KARMA.     lol  Must've been Yoko's influence.

Edited November 28, 2018 by wgdanson

[mauGR1]

2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

I wouldn't go that far. Some monks do behave badly, in relation to the Buddhist rules, but not all of them. They don't actually 'scrounge' food, but offer an opportunity to the common folk to be generous and compassionate in terms of giving. The people who drop food in the monks' alms bowls actually feel good about it, I suspect. The practice also creates a sense of communication between the monks and the Buddhist population.

 

What I object to is this concept that a monk should not attempt to grow his own food because he would almost certainly kill some worms and insects, inadvertently, with the consequences of bad karma, but he is quite willing for other people to kill worms and insects on his behalf, in order to feed him, the monk. The killing of sentient creatures presumably results in bad karma for anyone and everyone who does it.

 

 

Well, it's obvious to me that we all share the karma of killing smaller beings just because we eat food.

I think that the reason because the monks don't produce their own food is to dedicate their time to study and meditation, still i'd guess that growing vegetables is not a forbidden activity for a monk.

 

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, it's obvious to me that we all share the karma of killing smaller beings just because we eat food.

I think that the reason because the monks don't produce their own food is to dedicate their time to study and meditation, still i'd guess that growing vegetables is not a forbidden activity for a monk.

 

If the Monks didnt go out collecting food in the mornings, they would hardly ever leave their Wat , you would never see them and they wouldnt get a chance in to mingle with the public

[tifino]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Well, it's obvious to me that we all share the karma of killing smaller beings just because we eat food.

I think that the reason because the monks don't produce their own food is to dedicate their time to study and meditation, still i'd guess that growing vegetables is not a forbidden activity for a monk.

 

but then they'd have too eat GM only!

and even Organic results in dead bugs at some time thru the harvesting process

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

They don't actually 'scrounge' food, but offer an opportunity to the common folk to be generous and compassionate in terms of giving. The people who drop food in the monks' alms bowls actually feel good about it, I suspect.

The people do not need a monk in order to be generous. In the village I live in they are all generous to each other in many ways, no matter how little they have.

 

Across from us an old lady, my wife's great aunt is dying. I have been amazed at the comfort, care and generosity the villagers have shown to her and the family at large.

 

There's been one notable absence. Not a single monk has shown up to offer any form of 'spiritual comfort'. They will, of course be there when there's a funeral to attend to. At a price of course!

 

IMO the people have been conned into thinking that they are 'buying good karma' by filling the monks bowls with food. It's no different to the indulgences' that Christian priests used to sell in the pre enlightenment days

 

Regarding your second point. Are worms and insects 'sentient beings'? A worm may have 5 hearts, but I don't think it's been blessed with consciousness, a necessary attribute for sentience.

 

Christian monks are well known for their self sufficiency when it come to food production. Perhaps a few lessons in horticulture would get this Buddhist lot off their butts.

 

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

If the Monks didnt go out collecting food in the mornings, they would hardly ever leave their Wat , you would never see them and they wouldnt get a chance in to mingle with the public

Yes, i agree with that, and i cannot see anything wrong with them collecting alms and food.