Karma

[wgdanson]

On 11/29/2018 at 5:17 PM, rockyysdt said:

Anything repetitive assists with the clearing the mind of thought.

The physical aspect also assists in getting the cardio going.

A good J Arthur then !

[HAKAPALITA]

1 hour ago, rockyysdt said:

Are you sure this applies?

I dont know, except those i know who ramble on about it are drips who get no where and rely on it and nothing happens.

[rockyysdt]

21 hours ago, HAKAPALITA said:

I dont know, except those i know who ramble on about it are drips who get no where and rely on it and nothing happens.

 

You'll find the majority will get nowhere.

 

it's like the guy I know who suffered a heart attack and ended up with open heart surgery.

After that, he dropped the Coca Cola, started eating healthy, stopped smoking, exercised, and lost a lot of weight.

He kept it up for 2 years.

Now, 10 years on, he's drinking Coke, eats what he pleases, doesn't exercise, and chain smokes joints, in the delusion he's given up tobacco.

He's also stacked on the weight.

 

When any of us try to establish new habits, most of us will eventually succumb to our earlier ones.

We eventually return to following the path of least resistance.

The gym I attended, would have an influx of new members in January, following New Years resolutions.

By about Feb/Mar most have gone.

 

It's the same with practice the drips were rambling about.

It's a new habit requiring considerable effort.

Very easy to drop the ball.

 

I'd comment:

1. It's a big mistake to discount worthwhile endeavors based on the failing of others.

2. Once one achieves certain level of proficiency through sustained practice, the experience becomes self sustaining.

3. Some may rely on the promises on offer due to issues in their lives, but fail to overcome their negative self talk.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by rockyysdt

[HAKAPALITA]

23 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

 

You'll find the majority will get nowhere.

 

it's like the guy I know who suffered a heart attack and ended up with open heart surgery.

After that, he dropped the Coca Cola, started eating healthy, stopped smoking, exercised, and lost a lot of weight.

He kept it up for 2 years.

Now, 10 years on, he's drinking Coke, eats what he pleases, doesn't exercise, and chain smokes joints, in the delusion he's given up tobacco.

He's also stacked on the weight.

 

When any of us try to establish new habits, most of us will eventually succumb to our earlier ones.

We eventually return to following the path of least resistance.

The gym I attended, would have an influx of new members in January, following New Years resolutions.

By about Feb/Mar most have gone.

 

It's the same with practice the drips were rambling about.

It's a new habit requiring considerable effort.

Very easy to drop the ball.

 

I'd comment:

1. It's a big mistake to discount worthwhile endeavors based on the failing of others.

2. Once one achieves certain level of proficiency through sustained practice, the experience becomes self sustaining.

3. Some may rely on the promises on offer due to issues in their lives, but fail to overcome their negative self talk.

 

Good effort, nicely put, but just more waffle to we radicals.

[rockyysdt]

47 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Good effort, nicely put, but just more waffle to we radicals.

Just a little puzzled (waffle)?

 

Is it waffle because there's too much to read and take in, or is it waffle because some of it doesn't make sense to you?

[HAKAPALITA]

32 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Just a little puzzled (waffle)?

 

Is it waffle because there's too much to read and take in, or is it waffle because some of it doesn't make sense to you?

Makes perfect sense to believers. I have a built in dislike of Fantasy, you make your own way in life imo..If you believe in Gods, Amulets fair enough if it gives you peace of mind..

[rockyysdt]

55 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

Makes perfect sense to believers. I have a built in dislike of Fantasy, you make your own way in life imo..If you believe in Gods, Amulets fair enough if it gives you peace of mind..

Although many humans are free to choose what to think, say and do, most have no power over their choices.

 

Your response to my post was an example of how the human mind works.

 

You associated my words with Gods, Amulets and Fantasy?

 

Thought: Buddhist Forum (Karma) = Association: Gods, Amulets.

 

Rather than take my words, analyse them, interact with me and via other sources to better understand, and then formulate a view/response, your mind has automatically associated my interaction with "Gods, Amulets, and therefore fantasy.

 

What I've learned is that most humans, when taking in events or information, will automatically skip critical analysis, fact finding, and verification stages of thought, and go straight to a preconditioned association already in their memory.

 

This was fine for hunter gatherers, who, faced with danger, were more likely to survive  with quick automatic responses.

Stimulus: Encounter wild predator.

Auto Response: Associate this with danger, run.

 

However, this way of thinking is not so good, particularly if your head is filled with bad habits/beliefs.

If our heads are filled with rigid, prejudicial, outdated, incorrect views/beliefs, then our thinking and choices in life will follow accordingly.

 

 

Rather than "Gods, Amulets, and Fantasy" I personally wanted to learn what the Buddha actually taught.

Rather than regurgitate misinformation I had been fed over the years, I wanted to learn if there was any value in practice.

 

What I learned was that meditation was simply a practice of becoming aware.

Awareness of my body, awareness of my breathe, awareness of my thoughts and of my feelings.

That's all.

what I learned was that I had been going through life lacking any awareness at all.

I was just an automaton following my beliefs/habits without any real thought or evaluation.

 

The Buddha never taught Amulets, nor Gods, but simply a practice of becoming aware.

With deep awareness brought about through regular practice one can become aware of and overcome prejudgement, fixed views and begin to think clearly before making decisions or choices in life.

 

As one practices one becomes more and more aware.

It's as simple as that.

 

If there are Gods they have nothing to do with the Buddha.

If people sell you Buddhist Amulets, then both parties are involving themselves in superstition and unfounded good luck, both never taught by the Buddha.

 

 

Are you pre judging Buddhism based on what people do and say, without having studied it or tried to find out what it is really about?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

On 12/5/2018 at 5:39 PM, wgdanson said:

A good J Arthur then !

As good as it is, it only gets you so far.

 

We're talking about a seldom experienced state.

 

There are:

 

Conscious state.

Dream state.

Unconscious state.

 

Then there's the Conscious state in the absence of thought.

 

Most of us live in a Conscious state with a constant mind chatter.

Most associate this mind chatter is being "us", "I", "me".

 

Once one is able to maintain Consciousness without thought, one begins to become aware of a natural state.

A state which needs to be experienced to understand.

 

Once learned and regularly practiced, one begins to become aware of something which has always been there.

The unconditioned self.

 

A little different to the relaxed feeling one experiences after a J Arthur.

Edited December 6, 2018 by rockyysdt

[wgdanson]

1 minute ago, rockyysdt said:

As good as it is, it only gets you so far.

 

We're talking about a seldom experienced state.

 

There are:

 

Conscious state.

Dream state.

Unconscious state.

 

Then there is Conscious state in the absence of thought.

 

Most of us live in a Conscious state with a constant mind chatter.

The mind chatter is mistaken for "us" "I", "me".

 

Once one achieves and is able to maintain Consciousness without thought, they begin to become aware of a natural state with must be experienced to understand.

 

Once learned and regularly practiced, one begins to become aware of ones true self.

The unconditioned self.

 

A little different to the relaxed feeling one experiences after a J Arthur.

I got very interested in Transcendental Meditation in the 70s & 80s, mainly because I am a Beach Boys fan and they were writing songs about it. I then went to a course, paid 500 quid, some of which went to Mararishi I think, got my unique mantra which was the same as all the others on the course. And I have been trying ever since to get to wherever I should go. Useless.

 

I can get into a dream state very easily by watching Mancester City play ! Unconscious state by watching Manchester United play ! (Sorry to be flippant). 

[wgdanson]

3 hours ago, rockyysdt said:

Although many humans are free to choose what to think, say and do, most have no power over their choices.

 

Your response to my post was an example of how the human mind works.

 

You associated my words with Gods, Amulets and Fantasy?

 

Thought: Buddhist Forum (Karma) = Association: Gods, Amulets.

 

Rather than take my words, analyse them, interact with me and via other sources to better understand, and then formulate a view/response, your mind has automatically associated my interaction with "Gods, Amulets, and therefore fantasy.

 

What I've learned is that most humans, when taking in events or information, will automatically skip critical analysis, fact finding, and verification stages of thought, and go straight to a preconditioned association already in their memory.

 

This was fine for hunter gatherers, who, faced with danger, were more likely to survive  with quick automatic responses.

Stimulus: Encounter wild predator.

Auto Response: Associate this with danger, run.

 

However, this way of thinking is not so good, particularly if your head is filled with bad habits/beliefs.

If our heads are filled with rigid, prejudicial, outdated, incorrect views/beliefs, then our thinking and choices in life will follow accordingly.

 

 

Rather than "Gods, Amulets, and Fantasy" I personally wanted to learn what the Buddha actually taught.

Rather than regurgitate misinformation I had been fed over the years, I wanted to learn if there was any value in practice.

 

What I learned was that meditation was simply a practice of becoming aware.

Awareness of my body, awareness of my breathe, awareness of my thoughts and of my feelings.

That's all.

what I learned was that I had been going through life lacking any awareness at all.

I was just an automaton following my beliefs/habits without any real thought or evaluation.

 

The Buddha never taught Amulets, nor Gods, but simply a practice of becoming aware.

With deep awareness brought about through regular practice one can become aware of and overcome prejudgement, fixed views and begin to think clearly before making decisions or choices in life.

 

As one practices one becomes more and more aware.

It's as simple as that.

 

If there are Gods they have nothing to do with the Buddha.

If people sell you Buddhist Amulets, then both parties are involving themselves in superstition and unfounded good luck, both never taught by the Buddha.

 

 

Are you pre judging Buddhism based on what people do and say, without having studied it or tried to find out what it is really about?

 

 

Was Buddah not a mere mortal who was a very good talker, same as Mohammed and Jesus Christ, and Mr Adolf and other recent leaders/dictators as well. They could easily get normal common people to believe what they said and get them to do what they said.

[rockyysdt]

18 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I got very interested in Transcendental Meditation in the 70s & 80s, mainly because I am a Beach Boys fan and they were writing songs about it. I then went to a course, paid 500 quid, some of which went to Mararishi I think, got my unique mantra which was the same as all the others on the course. And I have been trying ever since to get to wherever I should go. Useless.

 

I can get into a dream state very easily by watching Mancester City play ! Unconscious state by watching Manchester United play ! (Sorry to be flippant). 

Sorry to hear.

A few dead ends, and nothing to show for your efforts.

I think it's about get the right teacher.

Not someone who indoctrinates you.

Rather someone who teaches practice technique.

Anything you learn beyond that will come to you, or you'll naturally become aware of it.

 

I did the Maharishi thing as well.

Mantra same as the others in the group.

Advised it would provide powerful transcendence.

Unfortunately Maharishi had only one goal.

To make money.

 

You would have had a reason for reaching out.

Maybe that reason is still there buried deep in you.

We're all affected by the same things.

 

Apart from finding a good teacher (no money involved), the best way to tackle your road block is to observe your thoughts (it'll never work, a waste of time), but don't act on them. Like a cloud in the sky, eventually it will float away leaving you observing your breathe.

 

And it doesn't matter it took 40 years to get to today.

You only live in the present.

Right now is the only time.

It only matter what you do now.

The past is history, and the future is only a thought.

 

Practice in the present.

 

1. Practice observing your uncontrolled breath for your whole wakeful day.

 When you forget, then remember, simply return to the breathe.

 Live your life, as you do, but do it whilst observing the breathe.

You'll forget that's natural, but keep at it.

 

2. Sit an hour a day in a comfortable chair.

   Close your eyes, clear the mind and observe the breathe.

 

Regular practice is all that it takes.

Don't be ruled by negative self talk.

Don't let your thoughts control your life.

 

Alternatively allow your life to be controlled by habits/beliefs and by random thought.

If we allow ourselves down this path we eventually either die feeling incomplete, or we get dementia and forget our plight.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by rockyysdt

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Sorry to hear.

A few dead ends, and nothing to show for your efforts.

I think it's about get the right teacher.

Not someone who indoctrinates you.

Rather someone who teaches practice technique.

Anything you learn beyond that will come to you, or you'll naturally become aware of it.

 

I did the Maharishi thing as well.

Mantra same as the others in the group.

Advised it would provide powerful transcendence.

Unfortunately Maharishi had only one goal.

To make money.

 

You would have had a reason for reaching out.

Maybe that reason is still there buried deep in you.

We're all affected by the same things.

 

Apart from finding a good teacher (no money involved), the best way to tackle your road block is to observe your thoughts (it'll never work, a waste of time), but don't act on them. Like a cloud in the sky, eventually it will float away leaving you observing your breathe.

 

And it doesn't matter it took 40 years to get to today.

You only live in the present.

Right now is the only time.

It only matter what you do now.

The past is history, and the future is only a thought.

 

Practice in the present.

 

1. Practice observing your uncontrolled breath for your whole wakeful day.

 When you forget, then remember, simply return to the breathe.

 Live your life, as you do, but do it whilst observing the breathe.

You'll forget that's natural, but keep at it.

 

2. Sit an hour a day in a comfortable chair.

   Close your eyes, clear the mind and observe the breathe.

 

Regular practice is all that it takes.

Don't be ruled by negative self talk.

Don't let your thoughts control your life.

 

Alternatively allow your life to be controlled by habits/beliefs and by random thought.

If we allow ourselves down this path we eventually either die feeling incomplete, or we get dementia and forget our plight.

 

 

 

Thank you for this. I have watched several videos on YouTube about breathing techniques, a lot of them advising the 8 - 7 method ie breathe in 8 seconds, hold for 3 seconds and breathe out for 7 seconds. Sorry but my logical brain says 'how can an extra second breathing in affect my whole body' ? I sit down for MANY hours a day in a comfortable chair, I think it is called a sedentary lifestyle! Usually listening to classical music. I do try to stop thinking, but then the thought of the exchange rate, or what my sons may be up to in Dubai, or what shall I have on my sandwich. So very difficult to not think. But I shall give it a go, cheers.

 

What was it Ringo said about Rishikesh.....It was like Bultins but vegetarian !    LOL

[rockyysdt]

17 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Was Buddah not a mere mortal who was a very good talker, same as Mohammed and Jesus Christ, and Mr Adolf and other recent leaders/dictators as well. They could easily get normal common people to believe what they said and get them to do what they said.

The difference is, that the Buddha offered practice which reveals the answers to your questions.

 

He didn't offer or promise anything.

 

He taught a system by which you could live your life with greater awareness.

Awareness of things which you must experience for yourself.

 

There is the mundane level experience.

Awareness of breathe and how it controls your body, mind and feelings.

Awareness of thought and how it affects your breathe and feelings.

Awareness of feelings and how they control your breathe and thoughts.

 

But awareness can be ever more subtle and acute.

The deeper your awareness the more subtle things become revealed.

 

At the shallowest level of awareness of awareness involving consciousness without thought you will experience a state without time, and a euphoria sublime.

This can easily be achieved within three months of consistent diligent practice. 

Once you experience such a state it is then up to you possibilities which you will become aware of.

Everything which you will expereince will be your journey.

There won't be anyone, me, others, or the Buddha who will tell you what they are.

It will be your journey.

Anything revealed to you will come from you.

 

That is the difference between the Buddha and those who have made promises.

The difference is there are no promises.

Only what you discover about yourself.

 

Finally, the band U2 captured it with this title.

 

"Running to Stand Still"

 

We are all running around trying to make sense with our lives but the answer has always been there.

All we have to do is stand still and become aware.

 

[rockyysdt]

19 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Thank you for this. I have watched several videos on YouTube about breathing techniques, a lot of them advising the 8 - 7 method ie breathe in 8 seconds, hold for 3 seconds and breathe out for 7 seconds. Sorry but my logical brain says 'how can an extra second breathing in affect my whole body' ? I sit down for MANY hours a day in a comfortable chair, I think it is called a sedentary lifestyle! Usually listening to classical music. I do try to stop thinking, but then the thought of the exchange rate, or what my sons may be up to in Dubai, or what shall I have on my sandwich. So very difficult to not think. But I shall give it a go, cheers.

 

What was it Ringo said about Rishikesh.....It was like Bultins but vegetarian !    LOL

This is where a teacher is of value.

 

I had a similar problem.

I was at a 10 day retreat.

Meditation for many hours a day.

Hard as I tried, my mind went out of control.

It just didn't want to let go.

By the seventh day, I resolved to give up.

From that time I stopped trying.

This caused my mind to stop thinking.

It was the trying that was stopping me.

It's a subtle thing.

Don't have any expectations.

Simply establish your sitting position, focus on the breathe but never try to meditate.

It will come of its own accord.

I went into the state without thought where time no longer existed for me.

There are no words to describe the sublime state.

This was the shallowest state. The deeper one goes the greater awareness will be experienced.

When coming out of it light appeared more vibrant with hues I have never seen before.

This state stayed with me for some time after.

 

The reason why very few get anywhere or Awaken is that they all give into their mind.

 

PS: I think sedentary is not good.

   If you work on your personal fitness and general health, this will aid your practice.

   A good set of lungs with good aerobic capacity helps.

   Good health is your passport.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

22 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Thank you for this. I have watched several videos on YouTube about breathing techniques, a lot of them advising the 8 - 7 method ie breathe in 8 seconds, hold for 3 seconds and breathe out for 7 seconds. Sorry but my logical brain says 'how can an extra second breathing in affect my whole body' ? I sit down for MANY hours a day in a comfortable chair, I think it is called a sedentary lifestyle! Usually listening to classical music. I do try to stop thinking, but then the thought of the exchange rate, or what my sons may be up to in Dubai, or what shall I have on my sandwich. So very difficult to not think. But I shall give it a go, cheers.

 

What was it Ringo said about Rishikesh.....It was like Bultins but vegetarian !    LOL

 

There are many sources of mindfulness breathing.

 

The most concise and comprehensive one I've come across is Anapanasiti (Mindfulness of Breathing)

 

Authored by Bikkhu Buddhadasa (the Buddhas slave), it covers the sixteen steps of breathing which can take you all the way.

 

I'd focus on becoming proficient with the first 4 steps.

This will take you to consciousness without thought.

The remainder can be initially motivational but provide a pathway to continue.

 

Basically the first 4 steps begin with an investigation of breath and how it affects ones body, feeling and mind, leading to mastery of breath.

 

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/anapanasati.pdf 

 

A condensation from Buddhist scripture dating back to the 3rd century.

[rockyysdt]

23 hours ago, wgdanson said:

II sit down for MANY hours a day in a comfortable chair, 

As well as the breath, the other important aspect is the sitting position.

 

Although Sitting Meditation will end up being the main focus, Meditation/Awareness practice should take place for your entire wakeful day.

As you go about your day, in thought, feelings and deeds, simply observe your breath, and eventually add observation of body, mind & feelings.

 

Practicing Anapanasiti during Sitting Meditation is recommended.

 

The sitting position is important and needs thought, experimentation and refinement.

 

Most westerners are unable to sit in the full lotus position.

Not important, as long as you can sit with open chest, and aligned with gravity (not fighting it), with a stable three pointed base.

 

You can sit on a firm comfortable, armless low back chair, or on a cushion.

The three pointed foundation can be your bottom and two feet, or your bottom and your knees/shins.

 

I use a zafu cushion positioned with its edge on the floor.

The bottom is placed on the cushion edge with legs straddled either side with knees/shins on the floor.

Both cushion and knees/shins can be further supported by placing a slab of furniture grade foam underneath ensuring circulation isn't blocked around the knee/shin area nor feet.

 

The chair is more easily replicated wherever you might be.

 

As the spine has a curvature you should sit with the your back tilted slightly forward and continuously adjust it increase suppleness and balance out gravitational forces. This will become part of your awareness of body.

While working on your breath, global observation of body and focus on easing muscular tension should be performed during periods when you are having trouble maintaining concentration. Rampant thoughts might be due and fueled by either muscular tension or by shortness of breath.

 

Lying on the floor also works but should be upgraded to sitting once you get more advanced.

Don't lie on something soft like a bed, you'll fall asleep.

It should be directly on mat, carpet or wooden floor.

When practicing on my back on the floor I've experienced states where I no longer feel the floor or anything underneath you.

Edited December 7, 2018 by rockyysdt

[VillageIdiot]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:50 PM, richard_smith237 said:

It’s a human construct.. there is no such thing as karma.

Don't be too sure.

[Rc2702]

Is there a karmic message in this recent experience?

 

1 day before I had to fly back to uk 3 weeks ago and I'm busy as hell, I'm heading home on my motorcycle and get to a main junction and there is this tiny week or two old kitten trying to cross the busiest rd in my city. I tried to forget about it but ended up grabbing it and taking it home. I'm allergic to them so we ordered a cage and let it live in the back garden. Kitten looked like it had been savaged and had to escape.  Little lady is doing very well 3 weeks later.  So yesterday, my first weekend back I'm on my bike again and there's a pack of dogs all beating this little ginger kitten up. I stop right by them and they run off and this little ginger kitten is done, still alive but completely unresponsive and has a look of complete shock in her eyes. I wait ten minutes with this kitten but she's far gone so I put her to sleep. Felt awful but she was definitely going to die. 

 

Bit freaky I think, I had never seen a kitten roaming round  on its own in years and in the space of 2 days in 1 month I saved one from certain death and had to put one to sleep.

[rockyysdt]

On 12/10/2018 at 12:36 AM, Rc2702 said:

Is there a karmic message in this recent experience?

 

1 day before I had to fly back to uk 3 weeks ago and I'm busy as hell, I'm heading home on my motorcycle and get to a main junction and there is this tiny week or two old kitten trying to cross the busiest rd in my city. I tried to forget about it but ended up grabbing it and taking it home. I'm allergic to them so we ordered a cage and let it live in the back garden. Kitten looked like it had been savaged and had to escape.  Little lady is doing very well 3 weeks later.  So yesterday, my first weekend back I'm on my bike again and there's a pack of dogs all beating this little ginger kitten up. I stop right by them and they run off and this little ginger kitten is done, still alive but completely unresponsive and has a look of complete shock in her eyes. I wait ten minutes with this kitten but she's far gone so I put her to sleep. Felt awful but she was definitely going to die. 

 

Bit freaky I think, I had never seen a kitten roaming round  on its own in years and in the space of 2 days in 1 month I saved one from certain death and had to put one to sleep.

Hi RC.

 

Going by Buddhist teachings and experiences of others who have followed, an evolutionary progression fashioned by past khamma, have propelled you to where you find yourself today.

 

You are human presumably fully formed, in relatively good health and with reasonable intelligence and good upbringing.

These factors will affect your ability and propensity to undertake the practice of Dhamma.

 

You could say that your positive Khammic store has led you to your current position.

 

Your actions with these Kittens show empathy and compassion, both attitudes which will place you in good stead.

 

The Buddha taught karuna, upekkha, mudita, and metta, as the four immeasurables.

Brahmaviharis or correct attitudes to live by.

Living this way could be considered as behaving towards a positive Khammic Ledger.

 

Here is what Ajahn Maha Boowa said on the subject.

 

Quote:

samsãra: The round of rebirth without beginning, in which all living beings revolve. Saÿsãra is the name given to the continuous process of being born, getting sick, growing old, and dying—an uninterrupted succession of births, deaths, and rebirths. It encompasses the entire universe of sentient existence, from the grossest beings to the most refined, from the highest realms of the Immaterial World to the lowest realms of hell. All existence within this cycle is subject to change, inherently unstable, and burdened with pain and suffering, with each state of existence being determined by a being’s intentional actions of body, speech, and mind (kamma). The attainment of Nibbãna marks the complete transcendence of the world of saÿsãra. 

 

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE HOTTER than the fires of hell? There is no need to ask where heaven and hell are located. The Buddha did not tell lies. These things were clearly known by him as well, and he described them just as he saw them. Ahh! This supreme Dhamma is strange and miraculous beyond belief. It encompasses absolutely everything within the heart. When the evidence is so clear, what need is there to inquire further? This absolute clarity is in complete harmony with the heart, so it is unnecessary to ask questions. Later, as I turned my attention to investigating my past lives, it was terrifying to think how many times I had been born and how many times I had died; how many times I was reborn in hell; and how many times in the heavens and the Brahma realms, only to fall back into hell again. It appeared as though the citta was climbing up and down a flight of stairs. But the citta itself never dies. Do you understand this? The citta never dies. Kamma is buried there in the citta. Good kamma leads the citta upward to the heavens and the Brahma realms. Then, when the good kamma is exhausted, the bad kamma that has lain buried pulls the citta down into the realms of hell. It is as if the citta were climbing up and down a flight of stairs. 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by rockyysdt

[dick dasterdly]

On 11/29/2018 at 5:17 PM, rockyysdt said:

This is why "walking meditation" and regular "sweeping" are of benefit.

 

Anything repetitive assists with the clearing the mind of thought.

The physical aspect also assists in getting the cardio going.

 

The Monks at Wat Suan Mokkh also exercise by rapidly swinging their arms  backwards and forwards, above neck height, several hundred times.

Their regime includes regular walks through the forest (bushland).

Physical activity is definitely a good practice.

 

Monks, Wats, and Sanghas are like people.

No two are the same, nor are their practices, and their motives.

 

 

"This is why "walking meditation" and regular "sweeping" are of benefit.

Anything repetitive assists with the clearing the mind of thought."

 

Gardening also is frequently repetitive and helps clear the mind of thought, for those of us whose minds are generally working overtime, and refuse to shut up.....

 

I'm not a Buddhist and not at all sure about karma - but share the same belief that deliberately killing (unless in a life or death situation - or kindness via euthanasia when suffering, that will only get worse) is very wrong.

 

As a gardener, I am v. careful when digging in the garden.  It was bad enough back in the UK when I accidentally cut a worm in half - but I took comfort in knowing (?) that worms had the ability to survive this as one half would re-grow.

 

Here in Thailand, I have learned to be even more careful as toads bury themselves in soil - and stand no chance of survival if seriously injured by a spade/trowel.

 

Surely Buddhist monks can take the same approach and garden their own food - i.e. be VERY careful by using a trowel (gently) in the first few inches, before using a spade when necessary?

[dick dasterdly]

On 11/28/2018 at 7:12 PM, VincentRJ said:

Hi Rocky,
That's fine if one excludes the concept that killing worms, insects, ants and so on, creates bad or negative karma.

 

The significant questions here are, "Do the Buddhist rules which forbid the killing of all living, or sentient creatures, include primitive creatures such as ants, cockroaches, spiders, worms, rats, and so many types of insects and microbes that live in the soil?"

 

"Is there some cut-off point where the killing of a dog results in a significant degree of bad karma, the killing of a snake results in a less significant degree of bad karma, the killing of a mouse or rat results in perhaps the minimum amount of bad karma, and the killing of a cockroach results in no bad karma at all?"

 

"Or, is there always a gradual diminution of the degree of bad karma, so the more primitive the creature, the less significant the bad karma, all the way down to bacteria, which would presumably be the cut-off point?"

 

"If the unintentional killing of an ant results is a very tiny amount of bad karma, does the unintentional killing of 5,000 ants and other insects during the normal course of farming, for a period of say one year, result in the same degree of bad karma which results from the killing of one dog?"

 

I have no objection to anyone spending most of his time meditating, or studying philosophy, or pure mathematics, or theoretical physics, and so on, if some organization or system is prepared to support him.
What I object to is the immorality and irrationality of someone's progress in developing good karma, being dependent upon other people's accumulation of bad karma, as they continue to kill thousand of insects during farming practices, whilst producing food which is essential for the life of everyone.
 

"The significant questions here are, "Do the Buddhist rules which forbid the killing of all living, or sentient creatures, include primitive creatures such as ants, cockroaches, spiders, worms, rats, and so many types of insects and microbes that live in the soil?""

 

Incidentally, I object to  ants, cockroaches, spiders, worms, rats etc. being referred to as "primitive creatures" - as the obvious inference is that there should be no problem with them being deliberately killed?

 

Edit - Purely because 'we' don't like them/they annoy 'us'?

Edited January 1, 2019 by dick dasterdly

[rockyysdt]

45 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"This is why "walking meditation" and regular "sweeping" are of benefit.

Anything repetitive assists with the clearing the mind of thought."

 

Gardening also is frequently repetitive and helps clear the mind of thought, for those of us whose minds are generally working overtime, and refuse to shut up.....

 

I'm not a Buddhist and not at all sure about karma - but share the same belief that deliberately killing (unless in a life or death situation - or kindness via euthanasia when suffering, that will only get worse) is very wrong.

 

As a gardener, I am v. careful when digging in the garden.  It was bad enough back in the UK when I accidentally cut a worm in half - but I took comfort in knowing (?) that worms had the ability to survive this as one half would re-grow.

 

Here in Thailand, I have learned to be even more careful as toads bury themselves in soil - and stand no chance of survival if seriously injured by a spade/trowel.

 

Surely Buddhist monks can take the same approach and garden their own food - i.e. be VERY careful by using a trowel (gently) in the first few inches, before using a spade when necessary?

Very inciteful Dick.

 

Repetitive work such as gardening can be an excellent way of taking you away from your thoughts.

 

I think, rather than the killing itself, a lot has to do with ones mind set when doing it.

At the very least the act of killing can harden ones heart and lead one in the opposite direction of compassion, and empathy.

 

The biggest reason the Buddha gave regarding Monks and work, was that he realized, the undertaking to Awaken is a full time endeavour.

Mindfulness is more important for lay practitioners who have limited time to devote to Sitting.

The Buddha practiced Anapanasiti which requires intense Sitting over many hours, something difficult to achieve while juggling regular work.

[dick dasterdly]

26 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Very inciteful Dick.

 

Repetitive work such as gardening can be an excellent way of taking you away from your thoughts.

 

I think, rather than the killing itself, a lot has to do with ones mind set when doing it.

At the very least the act of killing can harden ones heart and lead one in the opposite direction of compassion, and empathy.

 

The biggest reason the Buddha gave regarding Monks and work, was that he realized, the undertaking to Awaken is a full time endeavour.

Mindfulness is more important for lay practitioners who have limited time to devote to Sitting.

The Buddha practiced Anapanasiti which requires intense Sitting over many hours, something difficult to achieve while juggling regular work.

"At the very least the act of killing can harden ones heart and lead one in the opposite direction of compassion, and empathy."

 

I suspect it depends on each individual person - and their degree of genuine empathy towards others, especially when it comes to other animals. And most prefer to ignore the fact that we're all animals - as they consider humans to be 'superior'....

 

But you've ignored the main point of my post, repeated below.

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"This is why "walking meditation" and regular "sweeping" are of benefit.

Anything repetitive assists with the clearing the mind of thought."

 

Gardening also is frequently repetitive and helps clear the mind of thought, for those of us whose minds are generally working overtime, and refuse to shut up.....

 

I'm not a Buddhist and not at all sure about karma - but share the same belief that deliberately killing (unless in a life or death situation - or kindness via euthanasia when suffering, that will only get worse) is very wrong.

 

As a gardener, I am v. careful when digging in the garden.  It was bad enough back in the UK when I accidentally cut a worm in half - but I took comfort in knowing (?) that worms had the ability to survive this as one half would re-grow.

 

Here in Thailand, I have learned to be even more careful as toads bury themselves in soil - and stand no chance of survival if seriously injured by a spade/trowel.

 

Surely Buddhist monks can take the same approach and garden their own food - i.e. be VERY careful by using a trowel (gently) in the first few inches, before using a spade when necessary?

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

41 minutes ago, rockyysdt said:

Very inciteful Dick.

 

Repetitive work such as gardening can be an excellent way of taking you away from your thoughts.

 

I think, rather than the killing itself, a lot has to do with ones mind set when doing it.

At the very least the act of killing can harden ones heart and lead one in the opposite direction of compassion, and empathy.

 

The biggest reason the Buddha gave regarding Monks and work, was that he realized, the undertaking to Awaken is a full time endeavour.

Mindfulness is more important for lay practitioners who have limited time to devote to Sitting.

The Buddha practiced Anapanasiti which requires intense Sitting over many hours, something difficult to achieve while juggling regular work.

"The biggest reason the Buddha gave regarding Monks and work, was that he realized, the undertaking to Awaken is a full time endeavour.

Mindfulness is more important for lay practitioners who have limited time to devote to Sitting.

The Buddha practiced Anapanasiti which requires intense Sitting over many hours, something difficult to achieve while juggling regular work."

 

And that's all well and fine, as long as you can find others to 'fund' you whilst they are forced into doing "regular work" to fund you.....!

 

I've nothing against his philosophies, but if true, this is a step too far IMO.

[mauGR1]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I suspect it depends on each individual person - and their degree of genuine empathy towards others, especially when it comes to other animals. And most prefer to ignore the fact that we're all animals - as they consider humans to be 'superior'....

  

If we consider awareness, there is definitely a hierarchy of evolution among different beings.

I believe that even the most evolved mammals don't have a perception of being individual souls, still mammals are surely more evolved than insects.

I don't think it's bad karma to kill a worm while digging the soil, in the same way it's not bad karma for the planet to kill human beings through earthquakes, hurricanes etc.

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The biggest reason the Buddha gave regarding Monks and work, was that he realized, the undertaking to Awaken is a full time endeavour.

Mindfulness is more important for lay practitioners who have limited time to devote to Sitting.

The Buddha practiced Anapanasiti which requires intense Sitting over many hours, something difficult to achieve while juggling regular work."

 

And that's all well and fine, as long as you can find others to 'fund' you whilst they are forced into doing "regular work" to fund you.....!

 

I've nothing against his philosophies, but if true, this is a step too far IMO.

I don't think it's wrong for a Monk on the path of enlightenment to abstain from work, of course it's up to the lay people to choose whether to feed him or not.

Personally i would be very glad to share my food with a holy person ( i have been lucky to meet a few), and i am sure that i would gain more from sharing his company for a while, that him getting some food from me.

Of course, i have met some monks that make me think they could actually get some benefit from some garden work.

[rockyysdt]

41 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And that's all well and fine, as long as you can find others to 'fund' you whilst they are forced into doing "regular work" to fund you.....!

 

I've nothing against his philosophies, but if true, this is a step too far IMO.

If the aim is to Awaken (escape from re birth), then after re Births almost infinite in number our "Citta" may also evolve to be brought closer to reaping an opportunity to be funded. Input will eventually not go unrewarded.

 

If one contends that funding others is a burden, then failing to subscribe to the Four Noble Truths means that one will be exposing oneself to many, many, many, many, many, more sessions on the funding side, due to entrapment in the cycle of re Birth.

 

 

As the Ven Maha Boowa indicated in his book:  "the Citta itself never dies".

 

In terms of Karma accumulation vs low order Killing, the un Awakened will never know.

 

Much better to concentrate on practice.

An experienced traveller once advised that diligent practice yields awareness.

The deeper/longer the practice the greater/finer is the awareness.

Only Awareness can yield the answers to such questions.

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by rockyysdt

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

If we consider awareness, there is definitely a hierarchy of evolution among different beings.

I believe that even the most evolved mammals don't have a perception of being individual souls, still mammals are surely more evolved than insects.

I don't think it's bad karma to kill a worm while digging the soil, in the same way it's not bad karma for the planet to kill human beings through earthquakes, hurricanes etc.

"If we consider awareness, there is definitely a hierarchy of evolution among different beings.

I believe that even the most evolved mammals don't have a perception of being individual souls, still mammals are surely more evolved than insects."

 

Which rather proves my point about empathy - or rather, lack of it.....

 

We are still unable to communicate with other animals - although on the few occasions when we find a way to communicate (in a small way) with other mammals, it's because they learn to communicate with us - not because we learn to communicate with them.....

 

"mammals are surely more evolved than insects" - and there's the human talking....  Most insects survive very well, even when humans are around.

 

I'm not even going to bother to argue about "I believe that even the most evolved mammals don't have a perception of being individual souls"......

 

[madusa]

Karma is an old ancient Indian belief and thought system that existed even before Buddha's time probably came from Hinduism. From what I read even Buddha himself did not give a very detail or clear explanation on Karma.

A thought exists that leads to a desire or intention follow by an action all these must take place before any Karma good or bad is generated.

The Thai man has the intention of killing that dog and he shares the bad karma if the dog dies because the action is completed to generate the bad karma.

You both share the bad karma. But Buddha did say that it doesn't always work that way. Even Buddha admitted that Karma is not like clockwork but most of the time it does work like clockwork.

 

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I don't think it's wrong for a Monk on the path of enlightenment to abstain from work, of course it's up to the lay people to choose whether to feed him or not.

Personally i would be very glad to share my food with a holy person ( i have been lucky to meet a few), and i am sure that i would gain more from sharing his company for a while, that him getting some food from me.

Of course, i have met some monks that make me think they could actually get some benefit from some garden work.

Everyone to their own.

 

Personally, I have serious doubts about the those proclaiming they are enlightened - whilst relying on others to support them.  Especially when it comes to being unable to produce their own veg. (as it may hurt a worm etc.) for the reasons mentioned previously.

 

The vast majority of humankind have to support themselves, and I see no reason why monks should be an exception.

 

But as stated previously, I'm not a Buddhist (just an admirer of most of his original beliefs)- and so see no reason to pretend that monks are close to 'perfection'.

 

IMO, if they were close to 'perfection', they would be self-sustaining on their own vegetable produce (produced be themselves rather than outside workers), and get rid of the stupid taboos about women touching them/amulets etc. etc..