Question for USA Expats concerning Marriage, Taxes and the SSA

[Dogberry]

Hoping someone has tread these waters and can offer advise.

 

A little background. I’m married, been here 6 years and 100% committed to staying.

 

About 4 years ago I did take the step of reporting my overseas address to SSA so I get the annual “are you alive?” letter. I have not reported my marriage to the SSA. Nor have I changed my tax status with the IRS (Single).

 

So, I’m thinking, heck, if If the tax law says I get a tax break for being married then why not.

 

I have the form from the IRS to get my spouse a tax ID. I’d use that when filing (Married, filing jointly), declaring her income as $0 (homemaker).

 

I have the SSA form to report marriage. I need to get some clarification on that form as it asks for her SSA and of course she hasn’t one.

 

All this to save a few bucks a year. Or even just to be a good citizen and report lawful marriage, as required by two federal agencies.

 

There’s a bunch of questions unasked here and maybe best not to. 

 

If anyone that can offer up some insight please chime in. Or if you can direct me to a thread about this.... info is so scattered it's difficult to find exactly what I'm looking for. PM’s welcome.

 

Best Regards to my fellow expats and thanks in advance.

[lopburi3]

Can not answer what is required by SSA as do not receive - my pension is from OPM.  But for that required certified copy of Thai marriage registration (MFA stamp on copy).  And this was for survivor benefits which do not believe is available with SSA without living in US for certain amount of time.  So may not be any need to file.  SSA is controlled by Manila office so a phone call to them should get an answer (as they handle all the time).  File the application for ITIN and what they require and on your joint 1040 just include any bank account interest in her name (as it will be subject to tax) even if she has no other income.  

[Dogberry]

I am a federal annuitant as well. I got my appointment between the end of CSRS and beginning of FERS so as and OFF-SET I get both. Anyway, dis-regarding SSA for the moment except to say she will never qualify for survivor benefits so that's moot. So, in your case you file jointly, use an ITIN for her, and report any income including wages and Interest? And have no issues or ramifications from doing that?  

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, Dogberry said:

So, in your case you file jointly, use an ITIN for her, and report any income including wages and Interest?

Your wife is not liable for US taxes since she is not a resident or citizen of the US.

.

[lopburi3]

Yes file joint with her interest included (which is a lot less than the savings of joint filing).  Have not had any issues.  File using the Thai mailing address and have used on-line TaxAct system for last decade.  Suspect you have to mail to get ITIN however - when we got was on a visit to USA as could obtain any time.

[lopburi3]

Just now, ubonjoe said:

Your wife is not liable for US taxes since she is not a resident or citizen of the US.

.

Yes she is if she signs a paper saying she agrees to US tax - which then allow joint filing.  This is a savings for those whose wife does not work as allows the marriage deductions.

[Dogberry]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Your wife is not liable for US taxes since she is not a resident or citizen of the US.

.

Ok. But then how do (or can I) file with the IRS as "Married filing jointly" Is not a ITIN required to so?

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, Dogberry said:

Ok. But then how do (or can I) file with the IRS as "Married filing jointly" Is not a ITIN required to so?

A ITIN need to claim her on your US taxes. But I am not sure you can file jointly since she is not a US resident or citizen. 

I think you will have to file as head of household and claim her as non resident alien. 

[Dogberry]

5 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Yes she is if she signs a paper saying she agrees to US tax - which then allow joint filing.  This is a savings for those whose wife does not work as allows the marriage deductions.

Thank you so much. Yes she needs to sign that form and whether she's liable to report to the IRS in perpetuity is moot as after I'm gone she'll just ignore them. And yeah she has no income. I imagined this would be as simple as it seems to, but didn't want to get caught out in something I wasn't aware of.

[Langsuan Man]

I think that this is a Catch 22 situation;  you have to have a TIN to file jointly but you have to file in order to obtain a TIN,  if I read the TIN request form correctly

[Dogberry]

29 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Suspect you have to mail to get ITIN

Yeah I'll need to use the mail... debating if the hassle of getting a certified copy of her passport from the US Consulate is an advantage over just sending her original passport with the application. They claim the'll return it post haste or they'll even use a pre-paid return envelope if you include one (UPS, FedEX etc.) haven't check FedEx costs yet but the consulate is $50 bucks on top of mailing fees.

[lopburi3]

18 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

A ITIN need to claim her on your US taxes. But I am not sure you can file jointly since she is not a US resident or citizen. 

I think you will have to file as head of household and claim her as non resident alien. 

Joint filing is legal with ITIN without residence once said paper is signed as long as officially married.  You are husband and wife regardless of where you live.  Done all the time by expats with non-working wives.  

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, Dogberry said:

Yeah I'll need to use the mail... debating if the hassle of getting a certified copy of her passport from the US Consulate is an advantage over just sending her original passport with the application. They claim the'll return it post haste or they'll even use a pre-paid return envelope if you include one (UPS, FedEX etc.) haven't check FedEx costs yet but the consulate is $50 bucks on top of mailing fees.

I had to re-register ITIN last year and I just sent passport and it was returned OK.  Actually wife had to obtain passport for this purpose as last one expired and we no longer travel.

[lopburi3]

8 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

I think that this is a Catch 22 situation;  you have to have a TIN to file jointly but you have to file in order to obtain a TIN,  if I read the TIN request form correctly

No Catch 22 - you just include the ITIN application along with tax return.

[Langsuan Man]

Just now, lopburi3 said:

No Catch 22 - you just include the ITIN application along with tax return.

Well then does the IRS fill in the new ITN on the submitted return ?

[Dogberry]

1 minute ago, Langsuan Man said:

Well then does the IRS fill in the new ITN on the submitted return ?

I think you just get your ITIN first then when filing include copy of ITIN with return (requires paper copy the first time maybe?)

[lopburi3]

1 minute ago, Dogberry said:

I think you just get your ITIN first then when filing include copy of ITIN with return (requires paper copy the first time maybe?)

That was the old system - now you have to file tax and include the ITIN application to obtain - yes IRS accepts the ITIN application as valid joint return but do not know if they physically write it on 1040 or not

[Dogberry]

6 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

That was the old system - now you have to file tax and include the ITIN application to obtain - yes IRS accepts the ITIN application as valid joint return but do not know if they physically write it on 1040 or not

Ah ok excellent!!

[bubba]

Be aware that she cannot collect your survivor benefits as your spouse if she is a non-US citizen not residing in the USA.

[thaikahuna]

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

A ITIN need to claim her on your US taxes. But I am not sure you can file jointly since she is not a US resident or citizen. 

I think you will have to file as head of household and claim her as non resident alien. 

My wife has an ITIN (Non-resident version of an SSAN). We have been filing jointly for 7 years counting 2018. Since she has no taxable US income, none is paid. You must have her ITIN to file. On the first filing, it will not hurt to include a certified English translation of your marriage documents along with a Thai copy. 

[BarnicaleBob]

Some people on here seem to enjoy trying to over think this matter.  I have gone through what the OP has.  I was married to a Thai for about 5 years when I had the same thoughts about adding my spouse to my yearly income tax filing. 

First step: I took was to get her an ITIN number.  To do that, I downloaded the application, filled it out, took my wife to the U.S. Consulate with her Thai ID and paid to have a notarized copy of her ID made.  I attached that along with the other documents the application requires to the application and mailed it in to the IRS address on the application.

A few weeks later the ITIN letter came back with my wife's ITIN number.

Second step:  I filed income tax amendments for the past five years that we were married, adding my wife as a dependent for each of those years (That is five amendments in my case).  I received an average of $1,200.00 refund for each of those years. 

Third step:  Since then I have always had my wife as a dependent on my annual income tax filings.  This has averaged to about a $1,200.00 saving in what I pay each year. 

As an added bonus: If later on in life you bring your wife to live in the USA as a immigrant as your spouse then she lives there for five years or longer as your wife, once you have been married 10 or more years she will be eligible to collect social security upon reaching the age of retirement as your spouse filing under your social security number.  She would then get a prorated amount of benefit based on what age she is at the time of filing.  If you pass away after her living in the USA for five or more years and after ten of more years of marriage, she would be able to file for your full social security benefit based on her age (62 or more) at the time she files.  If she becomes a US citizen and you have been married ten or more years, she can collect your social security and move back to Thailand where she will continue to get her payments like any other expat.  

I have personally done the above steps 1 through 3 and I am considering a move to the USA to insure her an income after my death (out marriage is over ten years already,). 

[Danthai]

Wife's income and any money you earn living here in Thailand must be filed, but filed as foreign earned income. Only taxed if foreign earned income is over a very high amount. But if legally married and have a SS # for her you can claim exemption on your return.

[Danthai]

Wife is only eligible for your SS benefit, if you die, if you both live in US for five years married together.

[dlclark97]

Am retired USA expat and have been faced with similar issues.  Being over 65 I continue to pay for Medicare Part B even though I am in Thailand.  I have sufficient income that my contribution for Part B Medicare was twice the basic amount.  I obtained an ITIN number both for my wife and 15 year old step daughter.  I had marriage and other documents translated and all documents certified by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  Our marriage was officially registered at the local Amphur.  Once you have the ITIN number you can notify SSA at Manila of your marriage.  They will require you o send some originals and copies of some documents but they will be returned VIA traceable means to your Thailand address.  The end result of this was that my future Part B Medicare payments were cut in half and I received a refund for the overpayments made over two years since our marriage. IRS 1040.  Yes you can file a joint tax return.  I have a 15 year old step daughter that lives with us but has not been adopted.  She can be and has been claimed as my dependent.  FYI.  Because of our first time use of the ITIN numbers for both my wife and step daughter and due to the overpayment of withholding taxes that resulted in quite large refund coming to me our refund was delayed several months while our return was audited.  Eventually no issues were found and our return was processed with no further complications and the expected refund appeared in my bank account.  Last, while Turbo Tax and similar products are very good they do not cover every possible situation and as an individual you must spend hundreds of hours researching possible things that could affect your tax return.  Although I have used Turbo Tax in the past I now use a professional tax preparer in the USA.  He has POA authorization to speak for me regarding any tax issues that may surface or be questioned by the IRS.  I pay about $200.00 a year for his service and that has paid for itself over and over for many years.  I have stocks, ETF's and mutual funds which does complicate my tax return to the point I gave up doing them myself.  If it applies, don't forget your annual FBAR report for all American citizens who have over $10,000 USA in foreign banks.  As with many of us we try our hardest to do the right thing but sometimes our governments seem to make it harder every year.  Best of luck to you. 

[Danthai]

ITIN acts as SS# for wife and is used in SS line for wife on 1040, and forms requiring SSN.

[dlclark97]

Reading some more posts I thought I would add that we obtained the ITIN numbers before filing our tax return.  There is tax help in Bangkok but they will only process the request for ITIN numbers if they complete and process your 1040 tax form. 

[Danthai]

Download simple it in form and follow directions and mail in. You will receive an IRS instruction and ITIN card in wife's name back in mail which has her ITIN # on it similar to a SS card. If she works and/or you work, foreign earned income form must report your income, but not taxable until it reaches a very high tax free limit. Apply for card as soon as your legally married. Have plenty of time to get ITIN back before April. Filing FBAR completely on line easy after you have done it a time or two. 

[JimGant]

Quote

I filed income tax amendments for the past five years that we were married, adding my wife as a dependent for each of those years

I'm not saying this didn't happen --  the IRS is completely understaffed, and those there are mainly GS7's, with limited experience. So, anything can get by them.....

 

But, a simple algorithm would have showed that you've exceeded the maximum three years allowed for amended returns. And, in your case, it can't be retroactive for a recently obtained ITIN -- she would have needed an ITIN to be in existence for those previous three years.

 

And, she can't be a dependent -- she's your spouse when filing Married Filing Jointly. And this is to your advantage, because besides getting her as an additional exemption, you also get the married standard deduction, which you wouldn't, if she were just an added dependent.

[tweedledee2]

My marriage was in Feb 2014. In Jan 2017, I applied for an ITIN for my wife. I had certified copies and translations of her Thai birth certificate, Photo ID card and our marriage certificate prepared by a lawyer in Surin. I completed a W7 application form and mailed them to my tax preparer in the US, who submitted them to the IRS.  I received the ITIN by Thai mail around 6 weeks later. I then emailed my tax preparer the ITIN and she filed US and State amended "Married Filing Jointly" tax returns for the years 2014-2016 and I received refunds.  Contrary to another poster stating he claims a step-child as a dependent, I don't believe that would not be legally possible if the child has not met the IRS US residency requirements. 

[Langsuan Man]

This thread caused me to go to the IRS web page and look up procedures for obtaining a ITN and I wonder how many TV Members realize that as a result of Trumps Tax cuts there is a new warning on the instructions page for the W-7, revised November 2018 :

 

A spouse can be claimed as an exemption only for tax years prior to 2018. • An alien individual eligible to be claimed as a dependent on a U.S. federal tax return but who isn’t eligible to get an SSN. Your spouse is never considered your dependent. For more information about whether an alien individual is eligible to be claimed as a dependent on a U.S. federal tax return, see Pubs. 501 and 519.

 

Dependents can be claimed as exemptions only for tax years prior to 2018. • A dependent/spouse of a nonresident alien U.S. visa holder who isn’t eligible for an SSN. See Pub. 519. Dependents and spouses can be claimed as exemptions only for tax years prior to 2018.
Note. The deduction for personal exemptions was suspended for tax years 2018 through 2025. For tax years beginning after 2017, spouses or dependents residing outside of the United States aren’t eligible for an ITIN, unless they qualify for an allowable tax benefit. See Pub. 519 for more information.

 

2. Persons who must renew their ITIN to file a U.S. federal tax return. See Renewal of an existing ITIN under How To Apply, and Do You Need To Renew Your ITIN?, later.