Being A Buddhist Monk

[KevinN]

any non-imm O is a 90 day visa and after 90 days you will have to get an extension for up to a year,after your first one then you just have to report in to the police every 90 days as to where your residence is.

[astral]

  He was suggesting that becoming a monk for a few months would really expidite the process of getting Thai citizenship for such a farang.

A bit of urban myth I think.

As a monk you are not allowed to have money, so you will not be able to pay the residence and nationality fees. Someone will have to donate it for you.

I wonder if anyone is that desperate to become a Thai national?.

The monkhood is not an easy life.

The monasteries are also wise to this.

Young backpackers have "taken saffron" to get a visa then done a bunk after the monastery helped then get the one year visa.

However dedicated applicatnts are welcome

Edited May 25, 2004 by astral

[astral]

I'd love to take the plunge too. If only I could afford to take 3 month off work!

It doesn't have to be 3 months, less is acceptable.

Your choice!!

Check out the books by Phra Peter published by Bangkok Post

[KevinN]

I don't see how anyone thinks that being a monk for a few days is going to be anything to brag about.

Being a monk should be more than just bragging material,and being a monk is a very long process if you are really into it for the spiritual experience.

As most people know, A regular Thai Buddhist is required to practice the first 5 [panca sila] and on holy days practice 8, the lowest of novices are required to practice 10, and monks exercise 227 to live by on a daily basis,and the number increases with each step up. The DHAMMA is extensive and hardly done in a few days.

Now how are you going to learn all this in a few days.Being a novice does not make you a monk..

Kinda sounds to me that some folks are just looking for a way to show off rather than a serious interest in BUDDHISM.

[stroll]

I wouldn't go as far as suggesting: "some folks are just looking for a way to show off" , but you have a point, there are mixed desires motivating folks. Hoping to make it easier for visa purposes, wanting to please the family, a desire to go 'native' in Thailand are common motives, amongst learning about Buddhism.

So what? Nobody is required to be perfect before they enter the wat, nor after they leave, be it 3 days or 3 months (or 30 years).

In modern Thai society it has become acceptable to become a novice for as long as one gets time off work.

Better for a short time than not at all.

EDIT: Unintentional punt, don't quote me on that one!

[sabaijai]

I wonder how many Thai men who have ordained temporarily as monks have had a serious interest in Buddhism? I'd say most do it to earn merit for phaw-mae.

The current average length of time in robes for a non-lifer appears to be decreasing fast. I know very few Thais personally who have spent more than a month in robes, most more like seven days.

Some of the more serious wats in Thailand don't allow temporary ordination. Of course they release anyone who decides they won't stay in for life, whenever they want to dis-robe, but they won't accept applicants who state a 'term'. In Sri Lanka, where the Thai sangha's current ordination lineage began, no one is allowed to ordain temporarily (again, thus stated -- released if they change their minds).

Then again, like one of the Suttas reads:

Better it is to live one day virtuous and meditative

than to live a hundred years immoral and uncontrolled.

Dhammapada 110

Go for it Stroll.

[sabaijai]

I have been thinking about becoming a monk for three months, much as the young Thai men do, for some time. I witnessed a friend receiving the initial ordination, and my Thai family would welcome me to follow.

This is not a hoax!

My question is, has anybody done this or has information about it?

Keeping in mind that it is not a meditation course I am looking for, and unfortunately my Thai abilities are basic.

Is there a wat welcoming farangs near Bangkok, or in Changwat Nan?

Stroll one place near Bangkok that has accepted many foreign monks is Wat Pak Nam. You can find more info at http://www.chimburi.com/klong3.htm

And for a brief account of what it's like being a farang monk these days, see

http://www.concentration.org/_monastic.html

The latter experience comes from a foreign monk at Wat Luang Phor Sodh Dhammakayaram, located about 93 km from Bangkok, Thailand.

And a more general introduction to ordaining, for foreigners, can be found at

http://www.dharmanet.org/thai_94.html#ORDAIN

[andyinkat]

Sorry Stroll, just found this thread - seems to have gone dead and I don't know where you are now with this notion.

However I used to know students of Ajahn Sumedo (mentioned in one of the first posts) very well. They were westerners who'd practised in Thailand and also in the west but in the same discipline.

Wats do vary a lot as to how strict they are - I'm presuming you want the real deal, not the 20 fags and 10 mins meditation a day deal. Ajahn Sumedho's wat (his teacher was Ajahn Chah) is strict and has the great advantage of teaching in English. If you want to join the sangha short term i think you'd be taken on as a novice - which is to say you'd keep to the same discipline but you'd wear the while robe of an anagarika.

I recommend you track down the book "What The Buddha Never Taught". It's an account of a western guy who joined Ajahn Chah's western sangha for a few months and didn't hack it. As such it's a bit unfair to the sanhga as he didn't get what the whole deal is, and its a few years old now but it will blow away any romantic illusions you might harbour - and its an entertaining read.

For instance (and to link with another thread I've just added to here) he notes how when the monks go on bindabat (alms round) the Thai monks are given vegetarian food by the villagers but he at the end of the line (and a vegetarian) would be given steak! An enormous sacrifice for poor villagers but they believed that all westerners eat steak so they gave with good intention.

Anyway, you should read that book; whether you're currently off the idea or not i think you'd get a lot from it. Plus you should pay a visit to the western wat founded by Ajahn Chah - the name escapes me but I'm sure you could easily find out.

[stroll]

Thank's Andy, somebody else recommended this book as well, I'll get it, if not here, then on my trip to Europe next month.

Which kind of answers your question, I am thinking in terms of committing myself early next year, I'll be in England/Germany for 2 months and then the months leading to christmas are the the peak period in my line of business.

I have a few leads already, thanks to responses in and to this thread, but need to further investigate before I decide where.

[RamdomChances]

Stroll I'd say that if you are going to do it, go to a local Wat, as then when you do your rounds for food in the morning, you can be sure that the wife or her familly give you something decent to eat!!!!

[stroll]

Thanks for the hint, but food isn't the issue here, short of lepers' fingers (sorry to disappoint you, Sabaijai ), I'll eat almost everything.

[diogenes]

I am coming to Thailand (from the Caribbean) to study the path of the Buddha and experience the culture of a Buddhist country.

The Thai government certainly does not make it a simple process and I will be doing the tourist visa thing to get the ball rolling. I hope once I find a teacher that I can simplify the endless visa issues.

For the serious student I would recommend looking into Nepal, they seem to be much more Buddha friendly. (Just no scuba diving or golf.)

I also hope to visit teachers in other countries like Vietnam and Japan for the more Zen approach. Once I figure out which school I relate to the most - I will try to make the full time move.

I wish you much success and karma. I am very interested in hearing of your experience since I have also given it some consideration.

Peace.

[andyinkat]

Diogenes,

Actually I've just spent the last two years in Nepal (note my username). I was living in Boudha, Kathmandu which is th eheart of the Tibetan Buddhist community. I have many western friends who are living and studying in Tibetan monasteries (as monks) and they are very happy. There is also a particularly excellent one which does long courses in English for lay people and all costs (course and decent accomodation) amounts to about $10 per day. However it is all TIBETAN buddhism (all 4 schools are well represented) and this is quite different to Tharavadan.

For anyone who wants to *ahem* 'butterfly' around different Buddhist traditions but seriously there are two places I would recommend - I've spent some time in both.

One, in Nepal is Lumbini, Buddha's birthplace. All the Buddhist countries have built or are building monasteries and temple sin their own traditions and it is easy to visit/stay in the whole rainbow of them. Lumbini does have some problems however and most are very understaffed at the moment.

The other place the the main pilgrimage destination for Buddhists - Bodh Gaya in India. Again, all tradtions are fully represented and it is a very well-established pilgrimage centre. As such it doesn't have the solitude and tranquility of Lumbini. It is very easy to get long term visa in India for a serious student of Buddhism.

Both Buddhist centres would offer a genuine way to experience the disciplines and practices of the different Buddhist schools without having to travel so much.

[ka12345]

Has anyone here done it?

What do you need to know before you can become a novice? I speak and understand normal 'everyday' Thai OK but I can't speak 'monk language'. Do I need to learn that first?

Can anyone recommend any good online resources? (Preferrably in English because I'm awfully slow at reading Thai). (Not in TH at the moment but planning to become a novice for a week or a few when we move back to TH)

[sabaijai]

The Thai government certainly does not make it a simple process and I will be doing the tourist visa thing to get the ball rolling. I hope once I find a teacher that I can simplify the endless visa issues.

For the serious student I would recommend looking into Nepal, they seem to be much more Buddha friendly. (Just no scuba diving or golf.)

Having lived in Asia for over 25 years, and having travelled to Nepal several times, I'm not so sure it's a valid observation that Nepal is more Buddhist-friendly than Thailand.

Regarding visas, it is very easy to get a long-term visa to study Buddhism in Thailand. My friends in Kathmandu -- a few of whom have lived there since 1969 or so -- tell me that is becoming ever less the case in Nepal. Several old KTM hands I know have moved to Thailand (or elsewhere) in recent years because of perceived visa difficulties in Nepal.

One of the major resident Western translators - Andy probably knows him - at Kopan has to leave the country for six months every year, even after years of service at the monastery. (I'm not sure he's even still there at this point.)

I know a couple of Westerners living in monasteries in Bouddha as Vajrayana monks or nuns who are charged for room and board, and they said this was the norm.

No one taking robes in Thailand (or any other Theravada country) is ever charged for their time in residence.

To me Buddhism in Nepal - or in the KTM valley at least - appears to be noticeably more 'commercial' in orientation. You can sit in retreat at virtually any monastery in Thailand or Burma free of charge as long as you like. In KTM I never heard of a free retreat anywhere, except for one held by a Theravada-oriented organisation there.

When I was investigating Buddhist study in Nepal, every place I approached in Bouddha or elsewhere requested daily fees for the teachings and for room & board. These were often termed 'donations' but they were mandatory. In Thailand and Burma, by contrast, it's considered very ill-advised to request a specific amount of donation (although in Thailand there are a few places that do, all of them run by Westerners).

I'm sure if I had persisted in Nepal I would've gotten beyond these obstacles. By the time you're a senior student there, there must be ways to stay year-round, waivers for fees and so on. But for the novice it doesn't appear to me to be one of the easiest places to study Buddhism, at least relative to Thailand and Burma (where I've also attended retreats, always free).

[sabaijai]

Has anyone here done it?

What do you need to know before you can become a novice? I speak and understand normal 'everyday' Thai OK but I can't speak 'monk language'. Do I need to learn that first?

Can anyone recommend any good online resources? (Preferrably in English because I'm awfully slow at reading Thai). (Not in TH at the moment but planning to become a novice for a week or a few when we move back to TH)

For places that welcome foreigners either as laypeople or in robes, in Thailand, see this thread:

Buddhist retreats in Thailand

At the Buddhist bookshop opposite Wat Bowonniwet (Bovornives) in Bangkok you can find an English-language booklet that contains details on the ordination procedures for becoming either a novice (samanera) or fully ordained monk (bhikkhu).

Some monasteries allow you to ordain immediately, while others require periods of residence - as long as a year in some temples - as a layperson before ordination.

I've never ordained but have spent a fair amount of time staying in monasteries as an 8-precept layperson. Most people recommend doing that for at least a couple of months before taking the ordination step (unless of course you're doing it to make merit for your family, etc).

[andyinkat]

You're pretty much spot-on about Nepal Sabaijai. Indeed it's the visa issue that forced me to leave my work there despite investing everything I had into it. Nepal pretty runs on the basis of who you know and it is utterly frustrating.

You get tourist visas for a total of five months in a year; extending this can be very difficult unless you have a lot of money to invest or use for bribes. Most Dharma students have study visas which cosrt something like $50 per month - an absolute fortune in Nepal where the cost of living is about a quarter that of Thailand.

The 'paying for Dharma' issue: my understanding is that Thailand has strictly continued the Buddha's insistence on the Dhamma being freely given. Mahayana and Vajrayana tended to apply 'skilful means' (upaya kausalya) not only allowing monks to handle money but to charge also. It's pretty much the norm with non-Theravadan groups globally. I have a number of friends currently on a three-year retreat - they are living in tiny cells and having minimal food; for that they had to fork out over £12,000! This is in the UK; retreats would be a tiny fraction of that in Nepal. I wouldn't call this 'commercial' but I do confess the whole paying-for-Dharma' thing sits very uncomfortably with me.

Having said that I would say with great confidence that there are many very worthy and esteemed teachers in Kathmandu (Boudha and Kopan and elsewhere) - the teachings are of very high quality and prices that are extremely modest by western standards. I would still recommend it as a centre to study Dharma, but Vajrayana is quite different to Theravada and they suit different people.

[diogenes]

For all my new Dharma friends in Thailand, here is a little info.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama will be in Miami next month, I think the dates are September 19th to the 22nd.

My old center in Miami is helping with many of the events and teachings.

If anyone is interested in making the trek to Florida, I would be happy to try to assist you with things like finding a place to stay and making sure you can find space for the teachings.

Unfortunately, I am still not sure if my move to Thailand will prevent me from returning for this special event. (I am in the Caribbean.)

I look forward to joining you all shortly in the frustrations of Thai visa issues. Maybe we can organize a monthly expat Buddhist border run? Bringing a monk along might help simplify the visa issues at the border.

Peace and good karma.

[sabaijai]

Diogenes, any reputable wat in Thailand can provide you with a letter that will qualify you for a non-immigrant visa good for up to year depending on where you get the visa (your home country - the country where you are a citizen that is is always best). The first one is good for 90 days and depending on the further approval of your wat, you may be able to stay year round without ever leaving the country.

The only non-monastic study centre that may be able to help with visas is Ajahn Sujin's Dhamma Study Group in Thonburi. That's not guaranteed but as the most respected non-monastic dhamma teacher in the country, she has some pull.

The World Fellowship of Buddhists in BKK may be able to help too.

Despite the problems that do exist, I'd say that Thailand has one of the most liberal visa policies in Asia.

Andy, I didn't mean to imply that Buddhism in Nepal itself was commercial, just the access. What's interesting about KTM in particular is that is that the majority Buddhist group in the valley, the Newaris, see the influx of Tibetan Buddhism in their capital as a mixed blessing. I spent some time in KTM three years ago doing research on Newari Buddhism (connected with religious art) and this was the message I got from the Newaris: "The Tibetans here have received billions of dollars from around the globe, drive the best cars, live in relatively luxurious monasteroes, etc, while we 'natives' are barely scraping by and our Buddhist temples are barely surviving." They clearly saw the multiplication of Tibetan monasteries in the city as a foreign invasion of sorts. I'm sure they're also a bit envious that Western spiritual visitors shower attention on the Tibetans and virtually ignore the Newaris. I never met a Westerner studying Newari Buddhism other than non-practicing scholars.

As in the case of my comment about commercialism in Nepal, I don't mean to say that Tibetan Buddhism itself is expansionist, imperialistic, or anything of the kind. It's entirely natural that many Tibetans would seek a foothold outside of Chinese-occupied Tibet.

Of course Tibetan groups have been in the valley and elsewhere in Nepal for a long time, but the majority of the Tibetans in KTM only arrived within the last 50 years or so. The constant construction is amazing to me as well, having been a regular visitor since 1977, when there were relatively few Tibetan monasteries in KTM valley.

[andyinkat]

Sabaijai,

I completely concur with your assessment of Buddhism in KTM. This was why I made the very conscious decision after leaving a Tibetan monastery in the UK that I would not be teaching Tibetan monks or in schools founded by Tibetans relying on western donors or associating exclusively with Tibetan and western Tibetan Buddhists.

Newari are however by no means at the bottom of the caste pecking order and I chose to found a school for the most disadvantaged castes, particularly the Tamang who all take the surname 'Lama' as they are a Buddhist caste. I discovered that no western organisation was cognizant of these children - they were very much 'invisible'.

The children and their families were very religious and I worshipped with them regularly. I love the fusion Nepalis have made in combining Buddhist and Hindu worship. However what I did discover is that whilst I deeply admired the genuine piety of so many humble people I could find no one, even amongst the most educated Napalese I knew who could explain anything intellectual about their faiith.

There have been no 'revival' movements within Hinduism like ones that have revitalised Hinduism in India in response to modern pressures and the same seemed to be the case for Nepalese Buddhism. What the Tibetans have brought are absolutely top quality teachers who teach Dharma and how to apply it in ways that westerners can grasp. This aspect of Tibetan Buddhism may have been borne of tragedy but it is I think the chief reason for its current international success. I would like to see the Tibetans working more closely with their Newari and other Nepalese counterparts but I do believe that overall the Tibetans are an extremely positive influence on Nepalese Buddhism as a whole.

Actually, here's a little cameo: if the great stupa at Boudha has become the focus for Tibetan Buddhism in Kathmandu, the Newari Buddhists' greatest centre is the other stupa, at Swayambunath. You'll know it was flanked by two huge temples; one of them burned down late last year. It evidently contained great amounts of priceless artifacts, but on enquiry nobody knew what they were as nobody had ever catalogued them or even entered the temple to look at them for many decades! This was (is) one of the most famous religious sites in the world; Ii just thought that was very funny - and very Nepalese!

[sabaijai]

Yes I had a hard time, too, sorting out what Newari Buddhist practices are, who officiated in what kind of ceremony, etc. Apparently everything's done by committees of laypeople and there is no monastic order. I could be wrong about that though, that was my quick conclusion after only going a little way into it, as my objective was to gather info on stupas (another cameo). And as you say, the blending of Buddhism and Hinduism is interesting in itself.

A friend of mine who's still in KTM, and has been since the 60s. is married to a Tamang, and he's told me a bit about their history and current situation. Really interesting people. In a super interesting place.

[bankei]

Thanks for the valuation information on Nepal - things I had not thought about before.

I also beleive that has been a 'revival'(?) of Theravada Buddhism there, with many students having studied in Burma, and Sri Lanka.

[Abandon]

I have to disagree with much of the details in this thread about visas.

To get a visa for Dhamma study/ordination you must get a Nonimmigrant - R

A letter from a temple is not enough, even if signed by a Somdeth or the Sanghraja - if you are applying from within Thailand. If you are getting the visa from an embassy then they do have discrtionary powers to give a 1 year Non-R, but their co-operation varies.

To get a Non-R visa from within Thailand you need to have a letter of recommendation/support from a registered organisation - and there are no temples that have this! If you are connected with, teach at, or study at a Buddhist university such as MahaCula, or mahaMakhut - they can provide this letter.

Otherwise the Dept of religion and Culture at Phra Puttamonthon is the way. They require a large form to be filled out, and for monks or wannabe monks this involves a signature from the abbot, town head monk, and district head monk. These monks are always co-operative. Take that form with signatures and a lettre from the abbot to the ministry along with 2 2inch photos. Wait about 2 weeks for the letter to come through, though you can apply in advance 6 months.

Take their letter (or the one from the university), and another letter from the abbot stating your residence in the temple, 2 more phots, signed photocopies of all your visas in your passport, and 1900 Baht to the Immigration Dept. on Soi Suan Phlu. They should issue your visa on the same day. For the first year you might have to take your documants in to Immigration every three months. After that you can extend using the same process - and there is never a problem with this if you have all your documents.Extend for 1 year at a time.

If you turn up at Immigration with just a letter from a temple, or even with the abbot himself you will not get a visa!

If you enter Thailand with a tourist visa without prior arrangement with the Ministry of Buddhism and Culture - they may well refuse to issue the letter for changing to a non-R visa. They have the power to issue it, and often do, but it is their stated policy not to support changing tourist visas to Non-R.

Even if you are a Tahn Chao Khun you will need to go through this process. Long term monks sometimes get a permanent residence but these are expensive (200 000 baht) and very difficult to get.

Don't be put off by the process - it is easy once you have done it, and all the involved parties try and make it easy for you if you are sincere. I have helped numerous monks and novices get visas so I know what I am talking about.

[Anek18]

Any Temple or Wat will welcome Farangs..

You can walk in to any Wat and tell the monk u want to become a monk..

I'm planning to do it sometime not date set yet..

Edited January 5, 2005 by Anek18

[sabaijai]

Any Temple or Wat will welcome Farangs..

You can walk in to any Wat and tell the monk u want to become a monk..

Not exactly true. Some monasteries in Thailand don't have the space to take on new monks, so there may be a wait list. During the annual rains retreat (July to October), space may be especially tight.

Some wats also require aspirants to spend a probationary period in white clothing, maintianing eight precepts, followed by another period as a 10-precept novice, before conferring full 227-precept ordination. Such periods can vary from as little as a few months to five years.