"Who are you calling 'nebulous'?" May presses testy EU for Brexit help

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Well it should be the easiest trade deal in history, because all UK/EU standards are in 100% alignment. And this aligment of standards is the thing that takes the longest time to achieve in FTAs.

 

Had May followed her Lancaster House line and negotiated on this basis with Tusk and Barnier's zero tariff zero quota FTA proposal we would be in a mutually beneficial situation now.

 

May's duplicity with Chequers and the EU's weaponising of the Irish border are the two principal specific reasons for the breakdown.

 

By the way, see the Irish Times for the truth about the Irish border and WTO

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

 

The most legitimate approach now would be to switch back to the FTA track via a managed transition or via WTO (aka managed no-deal).

 

 

I don't believe the narrative of “Betrayal” by a remainer elite who sabotaged the “no deal” plans, though I can see why brexiters want to. It is the emerging British equivalent of the Dolchstosslegende – the stab in the back myth – which, post Versailles, the German military – Hindenburg and others – propagated to blame the Weimar civilian elite for having betrayed a supposedly undefeated army.

 

If you set yourself a ludicrous, unachievable deadline for a complete regime change, don’t be shocked that others use the pressure of the clock and the cliff edge to dictate the shape of Brexit.

 

No amount of bold, but empty, talk about “no deal” being better than a “bad deal”, however oft repeated at whatever level of Government, made the slightest difference to the 27’s assessment of the negotiating reality: the U.K. needed much more time, and failure to get it would be much worse for it than all alternatives.

 

It is, in the end, the total absence of a serious realistic plan for the process of Brexit as well as a serious coherent conception of a post Brexit destination, which has delivered this denouement to stage 1 of what will be, whether Brexit proponents like it or not, a much longer process.

 

 

[Dumbastheycome]

The UK has  now achieved a  situation where  Leave or Remain arguement  has been  over ridden  by the  assumed righteousness of  British Bulldog mentality.

The impact of the  debacle will  be felt  for  years to come regardless.

In my opinion that is because the  focus has been  on  "leave" without  thought on where to  go next.( At least  not for the uninformed voters).

Entering the EU originally meant virtually abandoning the  Commonwealth and the  historical trade in that.

Leaving the EU will put the UK in the same position of those  Commonwealth locations it shafted in doing so.

So   " On Ya"  Brits. Taste what you asked  for.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robins]

Churchill would have had the EU begging not to be nuked.  Don't kiss the EU liberal behinds, threaten them with nuclear war.   It's only the permanent independence of Britain that is stake.

[nauseus]

52 minutes ago, tebee said:

... because the U.K. had given no serious thought to the question of transitional arrangements until it was too late – precisely because of the fantasies propagated that this would be one of the easiest “trade deals in human history” and all would be definitively tied up legally by exit day – by the time they actually did focus, London was urgently begging for what is now pejoratively termed the “vassal state” transition, precisely because it knew that it could not be ready for a post Brexit equilibrium state by March 2019.

 

All the EU had to do was to ensure that the transition hinged off a Withdrawal Treaty containing a permanent legal all-weather backstop, and it knew that the U.K. had no alternative but to sign such a Withdrawal Agreement.

Nothing to do with fantasies, Tebee.

[My Thai Life]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

I don't believe the narrative of “Betrayal” by a remainer elite who sabotaged the “no deal” plans, though I can see why brexiters want to.

I've never seen this particular narrative - a "no deal" is by definition not a plan. Where did you do your cut and paste from this time?

 

There clearly is a "liberal elite" working against the referendum result. Blair and his spinners Mandelson and Campbell spring to mind. Blair is a war criminal who lied to parliament, with the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands. Nice company to be in.

 

I use quotes around "liberal elite", because Blair clearly isn't a liberal. He is an anti-democrat, just like you.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

All the EU had to do was to ensure that the transition hinged off a Withdrawal Treaty containing a permanent legal all-weather backstop, and it knew that the U.K. had no alternative but to sign such a Withdrawal Agreement.

Perhaps you've been on holiday. The withdrawal agreement is currently shelved due to it being unacceptable to every side of British opinion.

 

By the way, it's the EU that thinks it needs a hard Irish border due to its juggernaut bureaucratic inflexibility on trade policy. The UK doesn't need or want a hard border, neither does the WTO. This article in the Irish Times might help.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

[Spidey]

11 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I've never seen this particular narrative - a "no deal" is by definition not a plan. Where did you do your cut and paste from this time?

 

There clearly is a "liberal elite" working against the referendum result. Blair and his spinners Mandelson and Campbell spring to mind. Blair is a war criminal who lied to parliament, with the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands. Nice company to be in.

 

I use quotes around "liberal elite", because Blair clearly isn't a liberal. He is an anti-democrat, just like you.

Time to get your tinfoil hat out. The gang of 3 have zero influence over Tory MPs and zero influence over Corbyn and his acolytes.

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Perhaps you've been on holiday. The withdrawal agreement is currently shelved due to it being unacceptable to every side of British opinion.

 

By the way, it's the EU that thinks it needs a hard Irish border due to its juggernaut bureaucratic inflexibility on trade policy. The UK doesn't need or want a hard border, neither does the WTO. This article in the Irish Times might help.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

No doubt the UK would like the benefits of being able to choose the privileges of EU membership while rejecting the obligations. What EU member wouldn't if they could get away with it?

[Spidey]

Just now, bristolboy said:

No doubt the UK would like the benefits of being able to choose the privileges of EU membership while rejecting the obligations. What EU member wouldn't if they could get away with it?

And whilst Junker is steering the EU ship, that will never happen. I've said since the day the referendum result was announced, he's going to give the UK as much pain as is humanly possible for leaving the EU.

[welovesundaysatspace]

43 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 The UK doesn't need or want a hard border, neither does the WTO. 

Then what’s the problem?  

[My Thai Life]

Let's take stock of the EU ship of state over the last couple of years since Brexit:

 

- the emergence of the far right into mainstream political assemblies across the EU as a direct consequence of Merkel's (and others', but particularly Merkel's) posturing and virtue signalling on refugees in the absence of any mandate or policy

 

- France burning in reaction to a Napoleonic wannabe who thought he was going to lead a "progressive" EU agenda of rapid closer union but who misread the zeitgeist spectacularly

 

- member nations in open rebellion against EU interference in their domestic affairs

 

- a growing Euro crisis that according to many, including the IMF, could spiral out of control starting this month with the end of QE (quantitative easing)

 

- chronic extremely high levels of youth unemployment.

 

Without the UK's continuing financial contribution, the EU will be in an even rockier place even more quickly.

[Spidey]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

Then what’s the problem?  

The EU want the option of invoking a hard border in the future if the soft border proves to be impracticable in the future. It's called the backstop.

[Spidey]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

Let's take stock of the EU ship of state over the last couple of years since Brexit:

 

- the emergence of the far right into mainstream political assemblies across the EU as a direct consequence of Merkel's (and others', but particularly Merkel's) posturing and virtue signalling on refugees in the absence of any mandate or policy

 

- France burning in reaction to a Napoleonic wannabe who thought he was going to lead a "progressive" EU agenda of rapid closer union but who misread the zeitgeist spectacularly

 

- member nations in open rebellion against EU interference in their domestic affairs

 

- a growing Euro crisis that according to many, including the IMF, could spiral out of control starting this month with the end of QE (quantitative easing)

 

- chronic extremely high levels of youth unemployment.

 

Without the UK's continuing financial contribution, the EU will be in an even rockier place even more quickly.

Is Junker bothered? Is his face bothered?

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

The EU want the option of invoking a hard border in the future if the soft border proves to be impracticable in the future. It's called the backstop.

The EU doesn’t have a say in Brexit at all. The UK can decide alone what it wants. So, if “The UK doesn’t need or want a hard border” — why not just leave? What’s the problem?

[elliss]

10 hours ago, Burma Bill said:

Well done Mrs May - keep wielding your handbag at those Brussels cronies!

   The  She  shambles continues ,   until March , then another extension , on the other extensions . 

             Then retirement time  for the lady ,  well planned, enjoy.

                

           

Edited December 15, 2018 by elliss

[Spidey]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

The EU doesn’t have a say in Brexit at all. The UK can decide alone what it wants. So, if “The UK doesn’t need or want a hard border” — why not just leave? What’s the problem?

Unless you want a hard Brexit, i.e a no deal Brexit, which would destroy the British economy, then the EU is the only party that has a say in our terms of withdrawal. It's their way or the highway.

 

The fear is that a hard border would invalidate the Good Friday agreement and the troubles in NI would kick off all over again. Personally I think that that's an unfounded fear, but hey...

 

 

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Is Junker bothered? Is his face bothered?

Very.

[nauseus]

58 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And whilst Junker is steering the EU ship, that will never happen. I've said since the day the referendum result was announced, he's going to give the UK as much pain as is humanly possible for leaving the EU.

Humanly? Ha ha...

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Very.

He's very not bothered. He's slapped a deal on the table which screws us over bigly and is saying "No more negotiations, take it or leave it Madame Nebulous" whilst wearing a grin as wide as La Manche on his face. He's loving it, proper loving it!

[baboon]

41 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The EU doesn’t have a say in Brexit at all. The UK can decide alone what it wants. So, if “The UK doesn’t need or want a hard border” — why not just leave? What’s the problem?

That the UK doesn't know what it wants, exactly? That the place is deeply polarised and politicians are desperate to keep their noses in the Westminster trough and seem to care not a jot for us? That our politicians don't want to face hard choices ahead and are stalling and prevaricating?

Don't blame the EU. Just take a look at these snollygosters and ask yourself how these incompetents will rise us like a Phoenix from the flames, post Brexit. It won't happen, will it? 

Edited December 15, 2018 by baboon

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, Spidey said:

He's very not bothered. He's slapped a deal on the table which screws us over bigly and is saying "No more negotiations, take it or leave it Madame Nebulous" whilst wearing a grin as wide as La Manche on his face. He's loving it, proper loving it!

Well he was pissed on XO! (By bothered, I meant his face).

Edited December 15, 2018 by nauseus

[Spidey]

12 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Well he was pissed on XO! (By bothered, I meant his face).

Well wouldn't you look bothered and have to get pissed if you had to give La Belle Madame Nebulous the old Jub Jub?

 

                                                     

 

The things that man has to do for his beloved EU. Bloody hero.

 

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

If it would be so easy then why does the UK not have an agreement with the EU already?

It is obviously not easy. It's not easy because there are thousands of different issues which are connected with each other.

It's impossible to not want one thing but to keep all the other things.

May tried to find a compromise and it seems that will go nowhere.

Do you really think crashing out will be all in all good for the UK? Maybe some things will be better but hundreds of others will be worse. Is it worth it?

And where will all those nurses and others come from? Because there are obviously not enough British people who want to work in those jobs.

 As a nonBrit you seem to have no idea why the majority voted Democratically to exit the despised E.u. Relying for all your information from the Guardian. You probably think we all woke up one morning and decided to vote against this so called union.

Well I‘ve got news for you, the discontent with the imposed E.u has festered for over 30yrs. Every since the British people voted for a trading union, under the name of the EEC.( And if it had remained as a trading Union, we would not have the problem that the U.K and the rest of Europe are now facing.) However we soon realized we had been lied to, infact  conned by some of our own political class. And so the build up to 2016.

Here is one example from 8 yrs before we obtained our Democratic right, to decide Our future.

Perhaps you would care to watch this video to obtain a more accurate explanation on why we did make that momentous decision.

 

 

 

 

 

[tebee]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

He's very not bothered. He's slapped a deal on the table which screws us over bigly and is saying "No more negotiations, take it or leave it Madame Nebulous" whilst wearing a grin as wide as La Manche on his face. He's loving it, proper loving it!

He apparently deliberately chose an(irish) green tie that day.....

 

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

So why was she not replaced by someone competent in her own party a long time ago? Would Boris have negotiated a better deal? Or all the others? It seems most of them know that it is a lot easier to criticize someone else than doing it better themselves. 

As far as I see May is still there because they have nobody else who could do a better job. 

 

Good point, why has she not been replaced. Well first of all she was voted into the position of a remain supporting P.M by the Conservative M.P’s. The majority of whom were arrogantly out of step with the aspirations of the the electorate.

And as we saw last week, nothing has changed

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, dunroaming said:

And yet two hundred MP's think otherwise and that is democracy.

Could it be that those 200 Conservative M.P’s are too stupid to know what they were voting for, and therefor they should hold another ballot.????????????

[tebee]

 

Matthew Parris in The Times

 

“May has become detached from reality”

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/theresa-may-has-become-detached-from-reality-lgllszc39

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I've never seen this particular narrative - a "no deal" is by definition not a plan. Where did you do your cut and paste from this time?

 

There clearly is a "liberal elite" working against the referendum result. Blair and his spinners Mandelson and Campbell spring to mind. Blair is a war criminal who lied to parliament, with the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands. Nice company to be in.

 

I use quotes around "liberal elite", because Blair clearly isn't a liberal. He is an anti-democrat, just like you.

Should we all change our opinions if the war criminal Blair has the same opinion for that subject?

I agree with you that he is a war criminal. But sometimes Blair is right.

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, Spidey said:

And whilst Junker is steering the EU ship, that will never happen. I've said since the day the referendum result was announced, he's going to give the UK as much pain as is humanly possible for leaving the EU.

The way many UK politicians and even ordinary citizens behave I think the EU could give them everything and they would still complain. Because that was always the idea: Blame the EU, for everything, even if it had nothing at all to do with the EU.

I am sure if the UK would be out on WTO rules they would still blame the EU.

[superal]

16 hours ago, flossie35 said:

T May is playing for a sympathy vote - poor little me against EU bullies. Rubbish. More like incompetent me against people who know what they're doing. Latest polls suggest that most people in UK now want to remain, having rumbled the frauds and lies which influenced the 2016 result, and having discovered that the only brexit possible (apart from unthinkable "no deal") leaves us worse off than we are as members.

However polls are seldom correct .  T May = a stubborn woman who as a remainer should never have been at the helm . Two resignations by her Brexit secretaries enforce the fact that there is something dodgy going on behind the scenes and maybe a conflict of interest on Mays part .  The most annoying thing to watch on TV is when she says  " The people voted for Brexit and that is what I will deliver " .  We all know that the people voted for a complete divorce from the shackles of the E.C. and to regain control of our country and not the half baked diluted deal that she is promoting which still leaves the UK under E.U. laws and without any say .   What a dumb deal that is . We are pleading with a bunch of unelected tyrants saying " Please can we have are country back " absolutely pathetic .

We have watched an embarrassing performance from the UK negotiators but I have a feeling they were acting from a May script . The E.U.  team appear to be a bunch of bully boys ( & girls ) who congregate in a secure room to agree on their next kick in the xxxxxxxx for the UK . They are also demonstrating what the consequences will be if any other country considers following the UK .  The drop in the pounds value over the last 2 years has caused problems for many and looks like all in vain . I feel for the young indigenous UK folk who have been let down by their elders and will never see the UK as I saw it .