If a single Mother Dies, Can Her Minor Child inherit Her House?

[Mulambana]

I have a Thai child with my GF. She is diagnosed with bone marrow  cancer. She owns a house and a brand new car (I paid for that). How can I ensure that my child gets the house if she dies. She tells me her family (brother, sister, father, mother) is waiting like vultures to take her house and car when she dies. I don't live with her. I live in the USA. I'm coming next week to Thailand. Can she transfer the house to her daughter's name now? What happens if she survives after treatment? Is the transfer process expensive? Does she have to pay taxes like she paid when she bought the house?

 

Any suggestions welcome. I don't want the house or car but I want my child at least get the house. The house is in Bangkok

Edited December 17, 2018 by Mulambana

[BritManToo]

50% for her parents, 50% for her children.

Unless she writes a will saying different.

 

If there's no outstanding loan on the house, she can transfer ownership to the child now, and name you as manager of the property until the child becomes an adult. There's no going back on this transfer, and the house can't be sold until the child is 20 years old. There are taxes to pay when transferring a property to your child, but they are at a reduced rate.

 

Nothing to stop her transferring the car to you, like any other car sale.

You'll need a Certificate of Residence from your local immigration office.

Edited December 17, 2018 by BritManToo

[Mulambana]

15 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

50% for her parents, 50% for her children.

Unless she writes a will saying different.

Can a lawyer write a will and how the will is  enforced? How much does lawyer charge to write the will? I have read all kinds of horror stories of crooked Thai lawyers and their conniving schemes. Any suggestions?

Edited December 17, 2018 by Mulambana

[BritManToo]

21 minutes ago, Mulambana said:

Can a lawyer write a will and how the will is  enforced? How much does lawyer charge to write the will. I have read all kinds of horror stories of crooked Thai lawyers and conniving schemes. Any suggestions?

Will at Amphur office, just one form to fill out in Thai, about 40bht. "I leave everything to my daughter"

Same at the land office, "I transfer my house to my daughter", reason, "Because I love her"., then pay the transfer tax.

Amphur Office, In and out in 10 minutes.

Land office, file forms one day, collect next day (Unless you want to pay 5k extra for 'while you wait' service.

No lawyers, their wills are contestable, Amphur office will isn't.

 

I haven't seen a will done at the Amphur Office, but I was there when a land & house transfer was done at the land office, mother to daughter (I thought the 'reason' was rather sweet). The other kids still don't know they were cut out (about 8 years back), mom thought she was dying, but didn't. She didn't make a will, as the house and land was all she had.

 

PS

If you do it, you and gf, don't tell anyone either before or after, they don't need to know.

Edited December 17, 2018 by BritManToo

[scorecard]

18 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

50% for her parents, 50% for her children.

Unless she writes a will saying different.

 

If there's no outstanding loan on the house, she can transfer ownership to the child now, and name you as manager of the property until the child becomes an adult. There's no going back on this transfer, and the house can't be sold until the child is 20 years old. There are taxes to pay when transferring a property to your child, but they are at a reduced rate.

 

Nothing to stop her transferring the car to you, like any other car sale.

You'll need a Certificate of Residence from your local immigration office.

Emphasize strongly, in this case:

 

1. Who inherits what is set out in Thai law but this is only is she's doesn't make a will.

 

2. She can make a will (not at all difficult) and it's totally up to her to decide / nominate who get's what.

 

If she does make a will the Thai commercial code laws (point 1 just above) does NOT apply at all, who inherits what is totally her decision.

 

3. Her family cannot override her will in any way.

 

4. Yes children can inherit land and house etc., and yes, on her passing the owner's name on the land title document can be changed to a child, as nominated in the mother's will. I've heard before of this happening (child's name on the land title but with the name of a guardian or advisor added to the land document, a person nominated in the deceased's will (that could be you).

 

4. Keep in mind that if a child inherits land / house the property cannot be sold by anybody without a specific court order, but at 20 YO the child can make her own decisions on this subject without any involvement of any court. 

 

The family of the deceased mother cannot override this in any way. In fact if they did apply to the court for permission to sell the property before the child is 20 YO, there is 100% chance the court will not approve any such sale unless it's a very extreme case of the funds needed for extensive medical treatment specifically for the child and with proof from an appropriate medical institute / doctor. 0r similar.

 

5. Wills (for Thai folks and farang) can be made at the local amphur office. However don't be quick to believe what the amphur office staff might tell you is legal or illegal or normal or nice or whatever.

 

Ninety nine % of the government officers who take care of this have zero legal knowledge let alone expert legal knowledge of this specific subject area. If your not convinced by their statements / comments / advice get a lawyer involved quickly.

 

Good luck.   

 

 

[scorecard]

25 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Will at Amphur office, just one form to fill out in Thai, about 40bht.

"I leave everything to my daughter"

Yes beware of lawyers in Thailand for any subject.

 

In this case the details on the will can be very simple, even as simple as (quote from above) "I leave everything to my daughter"

 

If a lawyer says there has to be a lot more details then don't believe the lawyer.

 

If a lawyer says the will has to be the same as laid out in the Thai Commercial Code laws, don't believe it, absolutely not true. See my post just above.

 

If a lawyer says it's compulsory by Thai law that the lawyer must get 10% / 20% whatever of the total value of the inheritance don't believe it, totally not true.

 

 

[Mulambana]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

No lawyers, their wills are contestable, Amphur office will isn't.

So, it's better to to have it in Amphur office because it is not contestable and no lawyer or tax is involved. Does the amphur office keep the original will or a copy of the will? Does it require a witness?

 

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

4. Yes children can inherit land and house etc., and yes, on her passing the owner's name on the land title document can be changed to a child, as nominated in the mother's will. I've heard before of this happening (child's name on the land title but with the name of a guardian or advisor added to the land document, a person nominated in the deceased's will (that could be you).

On her passing, I could go to the Land Office and change the owner's name in Chonote (that is what a land deed is called, I think) to my daughters name and pay the transfer tax by showing the will? Is this that simple?

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Mulambana

[Mulambana]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

If you do it, you and gf, don't tell anyone either before or after, they don't need to know.

After her passing, how do they (Land Office) find out the existence of this will if it is done at Amphor (or Khet in Bangkok)?

Edited December 17, 2018 by Mulambana

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Mulambana said:

So, it's better to to have it in Amphur office because it is not contestable and no lawyer or tax is involved. Does the amphur office keep the original will or a copy of the will? Does it require a witness?

 

On her passing, I could go to the Land Office and change the owner's name in Chonote (that is what a land deed is called, I think) to my daughters name and pay the transfer tax by showing the will? Is this that simple?

 

 

1. I can't be sure but i'd be surprised if the original was not held by the person who made the will (your lady) and of course a copy at the amphur office, and she can give a copy to whoever she chooses and from what your sharing probably give a copy to you. But if she chose to not give a copy to her family then it's her right to do this and her family cannot demand a copy.

 

2. The lady concerned, when she makes her will, must include the name of a person who has agreed to ensure her wishes are carried out, this person is called he executor of the will. Unless you are a beneficiary (receive a benefit) from her will you could be the executor of her will. It should be mentioned that the executor cannot change anything, just ensure on her behalf that her wishes are carried out.

 

The will must also when finished be witnessed by I think it's 2 people, and they cannot be beneficiaries to her will and they would probably be staff form the amphur office.

 

3. On her passing the will must now go through a standard court process called probate. 

 

The amphur office would assemble all the appropriate documents, mainly being a death certificate and the will from the amphur records and together with you have it all lodged at the appropriate court. I'm not sure but maybe the judge may also ask to view the original chanut land title. 

 

In this case it's not complicated and the judge would very likely grant probate quickly. But part of the process of granting probate of a will is for the court to ask if there is any person(s) who object. This is standard procedure everywhere in the world.

 

In this case her family could try to object but there would be pretty much no chance whatever the judge would listen to them. A daughter inheriting a roof over her head from her mother is pretty much uncontestable, and remembering it's your ladies right to give (bequeath) the property to whoever she chooses. I don't know how long probate will take but i've heard comments of 30 to 60 days, especially where it's not complicated.

 

4. When the judge signs the probate order the executor now takes the original chanut land title document and the probate order from the judge to the lands titles office, the probate order from the court is in effect an order to the lands titles office to transfer the ownership to the daughter. 

 

Costs / taxes on all of this I don't know but probably not very high.

-

By the way, where is the original chanut document now? 

 

Perhaps it might be prudent for it to be held with the copy of the will at the amphur office but this is really up to the lady concerned here.

 

Perhaps a good idea for you to ensure you get copies of the will and a copy of the chanut and know specifically where the original chanut is being held and know that it's in a safe place.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by scorecard

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, scorecard said:

Emphasize strongly, in this case:

 

1. Who inherits what is set out in Thai law but this is only is she's doesn't make a will.

 

2. She can make a will (not at all difficult) and it's totally up to her to decide / nominate who get's what.

 

If she does make a will the Thai commercial code laws (point 1 just above) does NOT apply at all, who inherits what is totally her decision.

 

3. Her family cannot override her will in any way.

 

4. Yes children can inherit land and house etc., and yes, on her passing the owner's name on the land title document can be changed to a child, as nominated in the mother's will. I've heard before of this happening (child's name on the land title but with the name of a guardian or advisor added to the land document, a person nominated in the deceased's will (that could be you).

 

4. Keep in mind that if a child inherits land / house the property cannot be sold by anybody without a specific court order, but at 20 YO the child can make her own decisions on this subject without any involvement of any court. 

 

The family of the deceased mother cannot override this in any way. In fact if they did apply to the court for permission to sell the property before the child is 20 YO, there is 100% chance the court will not approve any such sale unless it's a very extreme case of the funds needed for extensive medical treatment specifically for the child and with proof from an appropriate medical institute / doctor. 0r similar.

 

5. Wills (for Thai folks and farang) can be made at the local amphur office. However don't be quick to believe what the amphur office staff might tell you is legal or illegal or normal or nice or whatever.

 

Ninety nine % of the government officers who take care of this have zero legal knowledge let alone expert legal knowledge of this specific subject area. If your not convinced by their statements / comments / advice get a lawyer involved quickly.

 

Good luck.   

 

 

 

Also, as mentioned by britmantoo another option is to go to the Lands Titles office now and transfer the ownership of the property to the child now. Very simple, not expensive and peace of mind for the mother and you.

 

Another point, how old is the child? Perhaps she's old enough to have a Thai ID card, worth considering that this also be done now rather than later, may be less complicated.

 

 

[BritManToo]

9 hours ago, Mulambana said:

On her passing, I could go to the Land Office and change the owner's name in Chonote (that is what a land deed is called, I think) to my daughters name and pay the transfer tax by showing the will? Is this that simple?

NO, the simple way is for mom to transfer it herself now.

Edited December 18, 2018 by BritManToo

[Mulambana]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

By the way, where is the original chanut document now? 

The original chanut is with my GF

 

59 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Another point, how old is the child? Perhaps she's old enough to have a Thai ID card, worth considering that this also be done now rather than later, may be less complicated.

She is 9 years old and does have a Thai ID and I have a copy of her ID in my phone as I book flight tickets occasionally for her and her mother. Have copies of both in my phone.

 

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

Perhaps a good idea for you to ensure you get copies of the will and a copy of the chanut and know specifically where the original chanut is being held and know that it's in a safe place.

Here is my question. So a foreigner, not married to the person, can be executioner of the will for that person?

 

Thanks @scorecard and @BritManToo

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Mulambana said:

The original chanut is with my GF

 

She is 9 years old and does have a Thai ID and I have a copy of her ID in my phone as I book flight tickets occasionally for her and her mother. Have copies of both in my phone.

 

Here is my question. So a foreigner, not married to the person, can be executioner of the will for that person?

 

Thanks @scorecard and @BritManToo

 

 Here's my understanding re your question about the executor:

 

1.  Marriage is not connected to this point / has no bearing on this point.

 

2. My name is on my Thai son's will as the executor of his will (his estate - the items mentioned in his will) and as a twist to this he's married to a Thai lady, their marriage is very happy and stable but he absolutely doesn't trust his wife's family, and for good reasons.

 

Son's wife knows all of the above and she's quite relaxed with the fact she's not his executor because it cancels any pressure on her in regard to her grabbing greedy and nasty unethical family (who are totally convinced my son is a multi-millionaire with no limit on funds, all automatically because he has a western family name. In reality my son is comfortable but certainly not wealthy).

 

If Son's wife was the executor her family would without any doubt put strong pressure to her to give them a hefty 'payout'. Part of that fear is that her family have no hesitation to come up with twists and turns and strategies to do things which are absolutely illegal and no hesitation to put big pressure on other people to implement their twists. Twice before they have paid off the police to escape charges for serious crimes. 

 

But in reality the law says that the executor cannot under any circumstances change a will.

 

Son's will was prepared by a professional very focused Thai lawyer who is my previous MBA student and who has become a personal friend who I trust totally.

 

- She did some further research to be sure it was OK for son's executor to be a foreigner and I can recall my son mentioning to the lawyer 'he's my father, so surely it's OK'. The lawyers response was 'for the executor the only situation where a person cannot be the executor is if that person is also listed as a beneficiary in the will. Any personal relationship; relative, friend or whatever is not relevant to being an executor'.

 

- Now a further comment on my son's will which is somewhat similar to your situation. There are 3 joint / equal beneficiaries to my son's land and house, vehicles, cash etc., his 3 children (all are still minors right now) all of this is detailed on my son's will. 

 

There are no other beneficiaries, and that includes that I am not a beneficiary, so it's OK for me to be the executor of his will (his estate) . Further, the lawyer did some further research to be sure the ownership of son's land and house (which is totally paid for) could be transferred to equal / joint ownership of his 3 young kids, she went to the local Lands titles office and spoke to the senior officer who said 'it's OK'.

 

3. Another twist, I'm the executor on the will of a farang who has lived in Thailand for many years on a retirement visa, 99% sure he will die here. Farangs lawyer (well trusted), at the request of my friend checked the written law on this subject (the Thai language version) to be very sure a foreigner can be the executor. All OK.  

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by scorecard

[PoorSucker]

Marry her and the you will be the legal father, she needs that both mother and child.

[Mulambana]

Here is another option I am thinking about besides a will or an outright transfer to my daughter. Can she go to the land office and include my daughter in the Chanote as a join owner right now? If she passes away, my daughter will be the sole owner of the house and she survives the treatment, nothing changes. Is this possible?

[scorecard]

16 minutes ago, Mulambana said:

Here is another option I am thinking about besides a will or an outright transfer to my daughter. Can she go to the land office and include my daughter in the Chanote as a join owner right now? If she passes away, my daughter will be the sole owner of the house and she survives the treatment, nothing changes. Is this possible?

 

Interesting idea, to be honest I don't know the answer, here's my personal thoughts (could be wrong):

 

1. Go to the land office (they don't bite) and check whether your wife can change the ownership to joint ownership, wife and daughter. I would be very surprised if she can't do this.

 

2. "If she passes away, my daughter will be the sole owner of the house...."  I'm not sure that's true. If your wife passes away her assets (including her 50% ownership of the land and house) are quite possibly compulsorily subject to a proper probate process rather than automatic full ownership by your daughter. 

 

Look at it this way:

 

Step a. Your wife makes it 50/50 ownership right now and I can't see any reason why this cannot happen.

 

Step b. Your wife / the mother passes away. But until there is some official action ownership of the land and house remains recorded as is, 50/50. I very much doubt that the lands title office scans death notices and then automatically removes names of deceased people from ownership records. This would be way beyond the purpose / the authorities of why the land titles office exists and what actions they can take.

 

Another possibility is that there is a will which states that on the death of the mother her 50% ownership goes to her sister (or whoever). The lands titles office would not be aware of all of these details so there is another reason why they would not / could not automatically assume the mothers 50% goes automatically to the daughter. 

 

(Another point, a will can be superseded / adjusted/ cancelled / changed many times (no limit on how many times), even if the original chanut held at the lands titles office had a will attached that office would not know if that will had been cancelled or changed. Actually I don't even know if the lands title office would allow a will to be attached to the original lands office copy of a chanut.) 

 

Step c. If the lady passes away and If I am correct (step b. above) the only way the lands titles office can change the ownership records is by a court order (the court order issued as part of finalizing probate of the ladies will). 

 

 

[Cricky]

1 hour ago, PoorSucker said:

Marry her and the you will be the legal father, she needs that both mother and child.

Married or not, to be legal father you must go to court.

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Mulambana said:

She is 9 years old and does have a Thai ID and I have a copy of her ID in my phone as I book flight tickets occasionally for her and her mother. Have copies of both in my phone.

You should also be concerned about the kids custody.

If you haven't married mom, or had the kid officially declared yours (court or Amphur office), the parents will likely get custody and not you.

[Odin Norway]

48 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You should also be concerned about the kids custody.

If you haven't married mom, or had the kid officially declared yours (court or Amphur office), the parents will likely get custody and not you.

To get half custody of a kid with the mother's consent is easy. Done in 2 months if the lawyer is up for the job. Papers can be signed and the mother doesn't even need to be in court. Land cannot be in a minors name, under the age of 16 without a guardian. At least that's how it is in Sakon Nakhon.

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, Odin Norway said:

Land cannot be in a minors name, under the age of 16 without a guardian. At least that's how it is in Sakon Nakhon.

you are mistaken, have misunderstood, or have been misled.

Edited December 18, 2018 by BritManToo

[Odin Norway]

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

you are mistaken, have misunderstood, or have been misled.

Could be mistaken.Sorry if that is the case.I have a daughter myself with custody from the court outside marriage. And I was told by my lawyer that she needs to be 16 before we could put the land in her name. Maybe I need to ask another lawyer

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, Odin Norway said:

Could be mistaken.Sorry if that is the case.I have a daughter myself with custody from the court outside marriage. And I was told by my lawyer that she needs to be 16 before we could put the land in her name. Maybe I need to ask another lawyer

You need to go to the land office and do it. Consent is required at the land office by both parents (If living) as mutual consent is required when naming the land manager.

Forget asking a lawyer, they aren't required.

Edited December 18, 2018 by BritManToo

[Odin Norway]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You need to go to the land office and do it.

Forget asking a lawyer, they aren't required.

I know they are not required. Not needed for the custody court case either. I was told in court by the judge, but they should know the law and rules on the matter you would think

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, Odin Norway said:

Could be mistaken.Sorry if that is the case.I have a daughter myself with custody from the court outside marriage. And I was told by my lawyer that she needs to be 16 before we could put the land in her name. Maybe I need to ask another lawyer

Yes, you should ask another lawyer.

 

I know from personal experience under 16 Thai child can own land.

 

Actually it seems that lawyers and amphur staff have poor / incorrect knowledge about this subject.

 

Perhaps a better place to check is the local Lands Titles office, they are the folks that do the actual work, endorsements etc., on the land document.  And they don't bite.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by scorecard

[Just Weird]

18 hours ago, Mulambana said:

I have a Thai child with my GF. She is diagnosed with bone marrow  cancer. She owns a house and a brand new car (I paid for that). How can I ensure that my child gets the house if she dies. She tells me her family (brother, sister, father, mother) is waiting like vultures to take her house and car when she dies. I don't live with her. I live in the USA. I'm coming next week to Thailand. Can she transfer the house to her daughter's name now? What happens if she survives after treatment? Is the transfer process expensive? Does she have to pay taxes like she paid when she bought the house?

 

Any suggestions welcome.

With all due respect to you (and other members), it is plainly obvious that you have no idea at all about inheritance, probate etc. (in one post you referred to the "executioner" of a will) and neither do most posters trying to assist you as you can see from their remarks qualified by words such as "I think, "I'm not sure but..." etc. 

 

You need professional legal advice, not advice from anonymous forum members who have also shown their lack of specific knowledge.   You need a lawyer, not Thaivisa forum, sorry.

[Odin Norway]

4 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Yes, you should ask another lawyer.

 

I know from personal experience under 16 Thai child can own land.

 

Actually it seems that lawyers and amphur staff have poor / incorrect knowledge about this subject.

 

Perhaps a better place to check is the local Lands Titles office, they are the folks that do the actual work, endorsements etc., on the land document.  And they don't bite.

 

 

Thanks for that. I will for sure do that now when the tone with the mother is good, and we both want the small one to have the house and land.

[Odin Norway]

4 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

With all due respect to you (and other members), it is plainly obvious that you have no idea at all about inheritance, probate etc. (in one post you referred to the "executioner" of a will) and neither do most posters trying to assist you as you can see from their remarks qualified by words such as "I think, "I'm not sure but..." etc. 

 

You need professional legal advice, not advice from anonymous forum members who have also shown their lack of specific knowledge.   You need a lawyer, not Thaivisa forum, sorry.

Why pay a lot of money for a lawyer when they in some cases have no clue either. If we all knew it all like you. There wouldn't be much of a forum, would it? Most of us that do try to help have actually been through this cases, and do not only think.

[topt]

14 hours ago, scorecard said:

Unless you are a beneficiary (receive a benefit) from her will you could be the executor of her will

 

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

for the executor the only situation where a person cannot be the executor is if that person is also listed as a beneficiary in the will.

Just to point out but this means that Thai law then is very different to most western laws. In the UK and US for example the executor can also be a beneficiary.

 

Presumably the OP has already looked at some of the many threads on wills?

 

[PoorSucker]

3 hours ago, VYCM said:

Married or not, to be legal father you must go to court.

She's 9 years old, it can then be made at the Amphur.

[Odin Norway]

2 minutes ago, PoorSucker said:

She's 9 years old, it can then be made at the Amphur.

So that means its no age limit for owning land on paper?