Did America Make Thailand what it is today? Bloomberg seems to thinks so ....

[phkauf]

50 minutes ago, Emdog said:

Funny not a lot of mentioning colonization of SE Asia by France, Britain and Dutch perhaps contributing to root cause of the conflicts... USA totally backed wrong horse when supported France in returning to Indochine.... ever read VN declaration of independence? Modeled on US declaration. Ho asked US for help first.

This pretty much nails it. The Euro Colonialists (particularly the French) destroyed the Asian societies and inserted their own puppet "Kings" or "Emperors" to run things for them and create a false legitimacy. At the same time, they destructively pitted one ethnic group against the other to prevent a popular uprising against their rule. The French were especially brutal in their rule over Indochina. This is what set up the table for the communist forces to recruit support and fight against the Europeans. It is well documented that Ho Chi Minh had no particular affection for communism and the Russians (less even for the Chinese), but they were who supported him. The US got snookered by that bastard De Gaul into supporting France's continued domination over Indochina post WW2. The idiots at the State Department made serious miscalculations by not supporting the independence movements in Vietnam.

An interesting side note is that both Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot were educated and introduced to the Socialist / Communist teachings while in Paris. So the French, in effect, set themselves up for disaster. Unfortunately the US, and it's Allies, and millions of SE Asians had to pay the consequences as well. 

Thailand was very fortunate at the time not to have been colonized by the Europeans and thus didn't have the same internal pressures that fostered a communist uprising. This allowed Thailand to move forward and modernize (sort of) while the other SE Asian countries went backwards for over 20 years. The next 20 years will be interesting since Vietnam is rapidly progressing and with the natural die-off of the old line Communists, they could seriously make a run a being the dominant SE Asian country.

[marcusarelus]

5 minutes ago, phkauf said:

This pretty much nails it. The Euro Colonialists (particularly the French) destroyed the Asian societies and inserted their own puppet "Kings" or "Emperors" to run things for them and create a false legitimacy. At the same time, they destructively pitted one ethnic group against the other to prevent a popular uprising against their rule. The French were especially brutal in their rule over Indochina. This is what set up the table for the communist forces to recruit support and fight against the Europeans. It is well documented that Ho Chi Minh had no particular affection for communism and the Russians (less even for the Chinese), but they were who supported him. The US got snookered by that bastard De Gaul into supporting France's continued domination over Indochina post WW2. The idiots at the State Department made serious miscalculations by not supporting the independence movements in Vietnam.

An interesting side note is that both Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot were educated and introduced to the Socialist / Communist teachings while in Paris. So the French, in effect, set themselves up for disaster. Unfortunately the US, and it's Allies, and millions of SE Asians had to pay the consequences as well. 

Thailand was very fortunate at the time not to have been colonized by the Europeans and thus didn't have the same internal pressures that fostered a communist uprising. This allowed Thailand to move forward and modernize (sort of) while the other SE Asian countries went backwards for over 20 years. The next 20 years will be interesting since Vietnam is rapidly progressing and with the natural die-off of the old line Communists, they could seriously make a run a being the dominant SE Asian country.

Thailand had internal pressures that fostered a communist uprising.  Communist insurgency in Thailand. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_insurgency_in_Thailand

[spidermike007]

Fascinating information, which I was not aware of. Apparently the US spend nearly $2 billion on infrastructure here in the 1960's, at a time when there was very little Thai government spending on such, and the tourism from the military encouraged the building of Bangkok's first decent hotels. My first visit to Thailand was in 1976, and Bangkok was still a relatively sleepy city, with mostly low rise buildings. Amazing how it has changed. 

 

The current administration sure has a strange way of showing their appreciation for our contributions to Thai society, don't they? 

[HHTel]

I was here in 1964/65 and BKK was teeming with yanks.  The cheapest place to drink was at the American club (although you could only spend dollars there).

Thai brothels and the like were abundant long before the yanks got here. Visited Pattaya which was nothing more than a few buildings by the beach.

Thai baht were still referred to as tikels!! "How many tikels for a massage?" ...... lol

[spidermike007]

11 hours ago, marqus12 said:

What kind of comic book do you get knowledge from? Captain America ?

 

Khmer Rouge was produced by Americans through the bombings

of eastern Cambodia. Pol Pot after murdering 2.5 million Khmer
stayed for a while on vacation in Thailand .

Khmer Rouge was the result and not the cause.

 

As an American I can say that what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia, was not our proudest moment. To this day, the US is still living the nightmare of the atrocity it committed in this region. And for what? The fight against communism? Did anyone really think we could beat the Vietnamese, in guerrilla warfare, that took place in their own jungles? It was a war based on hubris, disinformation, profiteering, defense industry lobbying, Johnson's misguided notions, and McNamara's insane illusions. He spoke of that in the Fog of War, and more or less admitted what a mistake the entire campaign was. 

 

At least Thailand benefitted from it. At least something decent came out of it all. As an American, I can say that the Vietnam war, is one of the most shameful events to take place in my lifetime. Frankly, I am not sure if the US has been engaged in a single "righteous" war since WWII. 

[TonyClifton]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

 

As an American I can say that what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia, was not our proudest moment. To this day, the US is still living the nightmare of the atrocity it committed in this region. And for what? The fight against communism? Did anyone really think we could beat the Vietnamese, in guerrilla warfare, that took place in their own jungles? It was a war based on hubris, disinformation, profiteering, defense industry lobbying, Johnson's misguided notions, and McNamara's insane illusions. He spoke of that in the Fog of War, and more or less admitted what a mistake the entire campaign was. 

 

At least Thailand benefitted from it. At least something decent came out of it all. As an American, I can say that the Vietnam war, is one of the most shameful events to take place in my lifetime. Frankly, I am not sure if the US has been engaged in a single "righteous" war since WWII. 

That is the question.  No veteran, no one from that time, can tell me why we (The USA) was involved in Vietnam and Laos.  No one can answer that question.

[from the home of CC]

There's a lot of money to be made in the industry of death.

[mauGR1]

12 minutes ago, TonyClifton said:

That is the question.  No veteran, no one from that time, can tell me why we (The USA) was involved in Vietnam and Laos.  No one can answer that question.

War is always a business, apart from that, probably the aim was to create a "buffer zone" between Communist and Capitalist controlled areas.

Surely someone will come out with other reasons.

Perhaps @marcusarelus can have a chat with google and give us a correct answer.

[HAKAPALITA]

The French even ruined Canada, not only Indo China.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[neeray]

This topic caught my eye immediately and I was hoping for some answers that I was never able to get from my Thai friends. But then the topic went a bit sideways and some "competition" took over.

Anyway! In my first Thai travels 4 years ago this month, I observed what appeared to me to be a lot of sixties/seventies era buildings, all somewhat rundown now. I'm speaking of older architecture, not more current. It appeared to me that there had been a boom some 50/60 years ago.

Much of that observation was in the Surat Thani City area, but I have seen it elsewhere as well, since then. 

At the time, not knowing Thailand's involvement with the Vietnam war, it did not occur to me that that is perhaps why and how these older buildings came to be.

I now assume that there was a boom of sorts as a result of American infrastructure investment in Thailand.

Any further knowledge of this era and a boom that seems to have faded will be keenly observed.

[GalaxyMan]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Fascinating information, which I was not aware of. Apparently the US spend nearly $2 billion on infrastructure here in the 1960's, at a time when there was very little Thai government spending on such, and the tourism from the military encouraged the building of Bangkok's first decent hotels.

And it has been estimated that 15% of all of that aid went directly into the pockets of the generals ruling the whole shebang, and coincidentally, owning/controlling all of that new business.

[mauGR1]

34 minutes ago, GalaxyMan said:

And it has been estimated that 15% of all of that aid went directly into the pockets of the generals ruling the whole shebang, and coincidentally, owning/controlling all of that new business.

There are also rumours that, at the time of the Vietnam war, there was an economic boom in the golden triangle area

[khunken]

Yes, one could say that Thailand did benefit from the Vietnam war disaster and the US money flowing in from the bases in Thailand as well as money to fight the Thai Communists. But it didn't get the country out of the 'Third World' or less-developed country status.

 

IMO it was the Japanese, post-Vietnam-war, that built up the infrastructure and industry which moved Thailand up a notch to 'developing' status.

[spidermike007]

2 hours ago, mauGR1 said:

There are also rumours that, at the time of the Vietnam war, there was an economic boom in the golden triangle area

 

And part of that boom was sponsored by the CIA, with Air America. The CIA was a bigger drug dealer than Scarface, and William Reborn and Richard M. Helms were the original Pablo Escobars. 

[mauGR1]

6 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

 

And part of that boom was sponsored by the CIA, with Air America. The CIA was a bigger drug dealer than Scarface, and William Reborn and Richard M. Helms were the original Pablo Escobars. 

A nice can of worms indeed.

[Speedhump]

Enjoying this thread. And I do believe discussion of westernisation has a place in the thread. If only to talk about how Thailand has in a lot of ways actively resisted it over many decades. 

[marcusarelus]

6 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

As an American I can say that what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia, was not our proudest moment. To this day, the US is still living the nightmare of the atrocity it committed in this region. And for what? The fight against communism? Did anyone really think we could beat the Vietnamese, in guerrilla warfare, that took place in their own jungles? It was a war based on hubris, disinformation, profiteering, defense industry lobbying, Johnson's misguided notions, and McNamara's insane illusions. He spoke of that in the Fog of War, and more or less admitted what a mistake the entire campaign was. 

 

At least Thailand benefitted from it. At least something decent came out of it all. As an American, I can say that the Vietnam war, is one of the most shameful events to take place in my lifetime. Frankly, I am not sure if the US has been engaged in a single "righteous" war since WWII. 

It was stupid city all around.  The Yanks were stupid, the French were stupid, the Vietnamese were stupid as were the Cambodians and Laotians.  Smart were the Brits, Thais, Chinese and Russians.   Although.  Just think of what would have happened if the Americans had cut and run too?  Mao killed 45 million in 4 years and Stalin 20 million?

Edited December 27, 2018 by marcusarelus

[MyFriend You]

23 hours ago, ravip said:

Has the US done any good to any country, up to now? Has the US 'uplifted' any undeveloped country to the developed status?

Take a look at Panama, we bought the Isthmus from Columbia, built the Panama Canal and made it a US Territory (The Canal Zone), industry popped up, military was built up all was good, everyone had jobs, free schools and medical care.  Then Col Noriega, who we put in the CIA Chief's chair, took over and screwed the pooch.  We invaded, dissolved all government, disarmed the Guardia Nationale, and now it's the safest, most productive country in Central latin American............read 'The Path Between The Seas'

 

and, and, and all those Pattaya Bar strap hangers will be right at home, every third Gringo you meet was Special Forces, Navy Seal, CIA, DEA, or SAS who jumped ship from the Falklands War............I even met a Bangladeshi who claimed he was a Ghurka once.

 

The Chinese want to so the same in Nicaragua...........not gonna happen in this century.

Edited December 27, 2018 by TunnelRat69

[MyFriend You]

21 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

Pattaya was not an American/Australian R&R site that was Bangkok (you might want to check how many bars were in Pattaya when the Americans stopped R&R).  Thailand was the only nation in the neighborhood that was not overrun with dictators and turned into a killing field like Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam.  Thailand lost 350 people during the war and Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia 3 million.  I know which I'd prefer.  Thailand asked America for help under the SEATO treaty and America assisted Thailand in not becoming like Laos and Cambodia with the slaughter of their populations by the Khmer Rouge and the Pathet Lao.  Maybe ask some Thais who were here at the time if they appreciated the American help.  My mother in law told me they did and everyone I knew from that period in Thailand was grateful although I knew mainly businessmen who were getting rich from the war. 

I spent the entire Decade of the Seventies in SE Asia, Nam 2 tours, Thailand 2 tours, Cambodia 1 tour, a tour in Korea, then back to Thailand to clean up the mess.  Pattaya only had about a couple bars in 1970, all the bars were in Kilo Sip (Kilo 10) near Uthapao, then they closed Kilo Sip and opened a huge Bar Town and named it "Freeland" on the road to Rayong near Muptaput.  That was a crazy place, everyone and everything was for sale.  They put it out there to keep us rifraf GI's and Airmen away from the locals.  Airforce even had shuttle busses back to Uthapao running up until 0130hrs.......miss the shuttle??  cost you a whopping 30 baht baht bus ride to Ban Chang, back then it was only 18-19 baht for a $$ or wait for the Sattahip bus in the AM cost 5 baht.

Edited December 27, 2018 by TunnelRat69

[MyFriend You]

3 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

I spent the entire Decade of the Seventies in SE Asia, Nam 2 tours, Thailand 2 tours, Cambodia 1 tour, a tour in Korea, then back to Thailand to clean up the mess.  Pattaya only had about a couple bars in 1970, all the bars were in Kilo Sip (Kilo 10) near Uthapao, then they closed Kilo Sip and opened a huge Bar Town and named it "Freeland" on the road to Rayong near Muptaput.  That was a crazy place, everyone and everything was for sale.  They put it out there to keep us rifraf GI's and Airmen away from the locals.  Airforce even had shuttle busses back to Uthapao running up until 0130hrs.......miss the shuttle??  cost you a whopping 30 baht baht bus ride to Ban Chang, back then it was only 18-19 baht for a $$ or wait for the Sattahip bus in the AM cost 5 baht.

I almost forgot, I was stationed on Camp Samae San near Sattahip, we had a USArmy NCO Ckub in Pattaya (Na Glua to be exact)  15 cent American beer, 25 cent whiskey shots, pack of cigs 10 cents..............Happy Hour was go to the club, eat, get smashed, then go downtown Pattaya - but hey..........we were GI's after all.........weren't we??

[marcusarelus]

23 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

I spent the entire Decade of the Seventies in SE Asia, Nam 2 tours, Thailand 2 tours, Cambodia 1 tour, a tour in Korea, then back to Thailand to clean up the mess.  Pattaya only had about a couple bars in 1970, all the bars were in Kilo Sip (Kilo 10) near Uthapao, then they closed Kilo Sip and opened a huge Bar Town and named it "Freeland" on the road to Rayong near Muptaput.  That was a crazy place, everyone and everything was for sale.  They put it out there to keep us rifraf GI's and Airmen away from the locals.  Airforce even had shuttle busses back to Uthapao running up until 0130hrs.......miss the shuttle??  cost you a whopping 30 baht baht bus ride to Ban Chang, back then it was only 18-19 baht for a $$ or wait for the Sattahip bus in the AM cost 5 baht.

It was called, "Newland" not Freeland, I seem to remember. 

[Spidey]

23 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

I almost forgot, I was stationed on Camp Samae San near Sattahip, we had a USArmy NCO Ckub in Pattaya (Na Glua to be exact)  15 cent American beer, 25 cent whiskey shots, pack of cigs 10 cents..............Happy Hour was go to the club, eat, get smashed, then go downtown Pattaya - but hey..........we were GI's after all.........weren't we??

Great posts. Good to hear it from someone who has been there and done that, as opposed to someone who has just read about it on the internet.

 

Good intel. Look forward to hearing more of your time here in days gone by,

 

Thanks.

[Tweedle dee]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Great posts. Good to hear it from someone who has been there and done that, as opposed to someone who has just read about it on the internet.

 

Good intel. Look forward to hearing more of your time here in days gone by,

 

Thanks.

Yep ! great tales from innocent but brutal days..if you get my drift ... now ?? corrupt whimps hiding in the shadows of natural lust.  TD.

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, Tweedle dee said:

Yep ! great tales from innocent but brutal days..if you get my drift ... now ?? corrupt whimps hiding in the shadows of natural lust.  TD.

For a soldier, it's all about duty. They just follow orders. Never blame them, the blame lies with those way way above them.

[ThaiFelix]

Did America Make Thailand what it is today?

 

Of course it did..........and on the 7th day it rested!

[MyFriend You]

51 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

It was called, "Newland" not Freeland, I seem to remember. 

      You are absolutely correct.  21 years old and full of piss and vinegar.

[marcusarelus]

23 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

      You are absolutely correct.  21 years old and full of piss and vinegar.

Whenever my wife tells me I don't understand Thais I respond, "Honey, I got to Thailand before you were even born!"

[Fortean1]

Those were the days; never to return.  My tour in Vietnam for 18 months; then a few months in that hellhole Fort Bragg, North Carolina; and a split tour in Thailand; Camp Samae San and Phu Mu Signal Site up by Mukdahan 1971-74.  My wife of 45 years is Thai-Chinese.  Yes, Thailand was influenced by America along with pumping billions of dollars into the Thai economy.  The Thais also adopted quite a bit of American culture over those decades. An ex-pat I know up in Udorn calls Thailand the land of upside down and backward.  I'm reminded of Italy in some ways.  Now we live just south of Hua Hin.

 

I also served in Panama 1981-84.  Noriega was running his own drug business and that was his downfall. 

 

American influence is waning.  The Thais who came into power during the 1960s and 1970s are now retiring or dead.  One small change is that True Visions is cutting TCM Asia and playing less American music on their music channels; Stingray whatTH.

[Skeptic7]

Like it or not...for better or worse...the USA pretty much made the World what it is today. 

[MyFriend You]

13 hours ago, Fortean1 said:

Those were the days; never to return.  My tour in Vietnam for 18 months; then a few months in that hellhole Fort Bragg, North Carolina; and a split tour in Thailand; Camp Samae San and Phu Mu Signal Site up by Mukdahan 1971-74.  My wife of 45 years is Thai-Chinese.  Yes, Thailand was influenced by America along with pumping billions of dollars into the Thai economy.  The Thais also adopted quite a bit of American culture over those decades. An ex-pat I know up in Udorn calls Thailand the land of upside down and backward.  I'm reminded of Italy in some ways.  Now we live just south of Hua Hin.

 

I also served in Panama 1981-84.  Noriega was running his own drug business and that was his downfall. 

 

American influence is waning.  The Thais who came into power during the 1960s and 1970s are now retiring or dead.  One small change is that True Visions is cutting TCM Asia and playing less American music on their music channels; Stingray whatTH.

Wow, we ate some of the same dirt, I arrived in Samae San April 72, worked Deep Water Port Tug Operations, the only Signal Soldier there, we had weather Radio TTY's and circuits with a number of places.  Assigned to Special Troops, then USA Trans Activity........spent most of 73 in Battambang (circuits with 7th RRFS Udon) and Kom Pong Som,(Sihanoukville) Cambodia during SCOOT  -  Support Cambodia out of Thailand.  I was in Panama from Aug 78-Oct 81 -  Quarry Heights SSO J2.........assigned to USACC, but didn't report to them.........lived in the Officers Quarters on Rodman (as a US Army E6, but listed as a Navy 2LT)   Good times   small world.