Thai Elite visa tax issues

[Crisu]

7 hours ago, BigT73 said:

If your broker had a option to pay into a Thai bank directly would you do that?

 

On a sidenote my misses just mentioned yesterday that on the news thai banks are talking about TN for accounts. At this point aimed at locals for tax purposes.

 

I use also Saxo SG and i pay from this accout  to my Thai account. Why not?

[lkv]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I want to abide by the country’s laws.

....

I want to avoid any misinterpretation by labor departments and/or immigration authorities and also any dangers to my family by not abiding by local laws.

I’ve searched the web and asked various lawyers, but still have not received a comprehensive answer.

Laws are written decades ago, not adapted to derivatives and all that, they can be interpreted in any way by people in power, and there is not too much one individual can do, apart from paying bribes.

 

Courts are corrupt also.

 

This is an overall risk of a developing country.

 

So just like they enforce "some" laws, we follow "some" of them in the hope that sh#t does not hit the fan.

 

You cannot find the comprehensive legal protection you are looking for over here, unfortunately.

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by lkv

[wordchild]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

1) what is a wum ?? 

 

2) no the issue is not clear cut.. Thailand has long made it clear that stock purchasing and selling doesnt require a work permit. The issue of being a trader, and when someone might need one, is far wider than simply elite card issues. Repeatedly it has been stated that it isnt illegal to do this, you are free to disagree as I feel it is a grey area, but labour department and a recent 'bust' of a professional day trading operation, seem to indicate otherwise. 

The trading operations i believe this poster is referring too were not trading on their own accounts, or at least thats not why they were busted. They were pumping other people (non Thai investors/victims) into dubious or even non existent investment schemes and pocketing a great deal of money from this fraud.  And the reason they were busted is because Thailand was put under significant pressure by the authorities in the countries where the victims were based (eg Australia and the UK) and it simply  had to respond.

[wordchild]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

...when you transfer all the money you need in Thailand in a calendar year in the first week of january. that's what i did day before yesterday. personally i think it's overkill because there were years when i bought cars which did cost a multiple of our annual living expenses. but the "transfer in january" was the brilliant idea of my "better half" and it makes her happy. 

This is the simplest (and IMHO) the best way of bringing funds into Thailand. Means you have no real need for record keeping to prove the source of funds (whether current year income or capital) . Its also what i do and its also what a significant number of wealthy Thais do (or so i have been told by my Thai bank).

[Crisu]

9 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

simon43: I wouldn't call it a tourist visa since it allows you to spend 7,300 days (20 years) continuously in the country. This would be strangest tourist visa which allows you to rent a property, to open a local bank account, to stay for decades without interruption and so on. I know it's a non immigrant visa and doesn't give you permanent residence but 20 years is pretty close especially if we'll be able to renew it for another 20 years.

 

ukrules: You mean someone who has been residing in the country for 3+ years could qualify for the citizenship if he or she could produce a tax return with some type of active income in it?

Well to be honest i dont want to pay 2 mio. THB for a 20 year visa because i dont know if i stay in TH for the next 20 years and if you are already 50 years old there are other better options in my opinion which cost your far less but have to be renew every year, which mean some additional work. whit this visa you can stay 1 year, which is sufficient for me and most other expats here.

I dont know if you are already in thailand or lived here before long time, but if not and you are belwo 50, i would apply for a 1 year Multiple Entry Visa first before i move to thailand to try everything first in TH. This Visa will allow you a max stay of 9 months in 1 year. If you still like it here you can apply for a tourist visa in one ot the neighboring country or if you want to learn thai or any other language you can apply for a "non immigrant Ed" which will allow you a longer stay in TH too.

Why tie yourself for 20 years in the beginning and spending 2 mio. THB? Better you buy a small freehold condo for that money which is yours forever.

[BertM]

4 hours ago, Misty said:

OP's question was in regards to "day trading"

Seems to me the OP is trying to establish that he is working in Thailand by trying to get a Thai tax ID to give to his brokerage firm so he doesn't have to report & pay taxes in his home country on his investment gains & income. Maybe there's a legal way to do it, but if he's only managing his own monies and not working for a Thai company or has established a legitimate business in Thailand where he's managing OPM other people's money, then how can he realistically call that working or being employed. It doesn't matter if he's day trading or what he's buying, if he's only using his own monies, I don't think that meets the test for being employed in Thailand. I actively manage my own investment portfolio and it requires daily monitoring and very frequent trades, but my gov't would not rule that I am self-employed or having my own business if I'm only using my own money. That doesn't meet the test & tax law requirements in my country. But, good luck with trying to avoid paying taxes on your investment gains. There's no way I can avoid it, nor would I even try.

Edited January 9, 2019 by BertM

[ThomasThBKK]

That's just wrong, he lives in thailand and does his tax reporting here. As long as he doesn't stay in his home country (usa excluded) he's out of theit tax system as long as he does thai taxes.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk

[ukrules]

10 hours ago, alexanderhu said:

ukrules: I see, so technically speaking if a Thai Elite member pays some tax for three years in a row, then he or she may be able to secure a PR. I presume there must be some other requirements as well or it is that simple?

I suspect it helps if you're married, have children and can demonstrate ties to Thailand but in truth I don't know as it's not something I've ever pursued.

 

Apparently you also need to speak a bit of Thai.

[Crisu]

Seems to me the OP is trying to establish that he is working in Thailand by trying to get a Thai tax ID to give to his brokerage firm so he doesn't have to report & pay taxes in his home country on his investment gains & income. Maybe there's a legal way to do it,

I visited a lawyer last year in Phuket which i know already for several years and asked him can he arrange a thai TIN for me. I woud be also willing to pay some money.

He said there is only one chance left if i am not employed at a thai company with a salary and that is the way with a fixed deposit at a thai bank.

I also dont have any other taxable income like rental income or own a company in thailand.

So if you have 'nothing' right now, your chances are going to zero to obtain a TIN in 2019.

Stock trading does not entitle you to ask for a TIN!

But maybe other revenue departmens in TH will see it differently.

[Naam]

5 hours ago, Misty said:

5 hours ago, Naam said:

any focus on "day trading" is irrelevant.

OP's question was in regards to "day trading"

it is still irrelevant.

[humbug]

4 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

1) what is a wum ?? 

 

2) no the issue is not clear cut.. Thailand has long made it clear that stock purchasing and selling doesnt require a work permit. The issue of being a trader, and when someone might need one, is far wider than simply elite card issues. Repeatedly it has been stated that it isnt illegal to do this, you are free to disagree as I feel it is a grey area, but labour department and a recent 'bust' of a professional day trading operation, seem to indicate otherwise. 

many visas are gray area visas as they allow you stay for certain periods of time, marriage, education, retirement, elite but thats the point if you going to trash a visa and abuse its gray area on an open visa web board read by thousands, looked over by authorities is it really a smart thing to do????

 

Hell neon bright lights look at this thread tax issues with a gray area visa whoo hoo look at this mr immigration. 

 

This is my point its daft and on any other gray visa this thread would be a public threat, so why isnt the elite visa treated in the same way on this forum board?

 

The title should never have been allowed on this forum

 

the elite is not a visa that you pay taxes on income from working. So why have an op blatantly trashing the visa through mud by thinking you can get around the headache of opening a company name paying taxes through it and having a work permit. and instead live of a gray area visa in thailand and openly throw the visa under the bus with this type of thread

[ThomasThBKK]

You don't get it, you seem to be quite narrow minded in your view...


Taxes have nothing todo with working per se or a work visa.

People on a retirement visa also get a taxid if they need it.

Many reasons to pay taxes here even without working a la real estate income, dividends, crypto currency trading, stock trades on a thai broker etc...




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[Naam]

47 minutes ago, BertM said:

Seems to me the OP is trying to establish that he is working in Thailand by trying to get a Thai tax ID to give to his brokerage firm so he doesn't have to report & pay taxes in his home country on his investment gains & income.

nope! after me mentioning "banks might ask for TINs" the OP clearly stated that's the case. after informing the taxman, paying any taxes due and leaving an EU country an EU-citizen is tax wise free and clear assuming no other ties to the home country. it's the financial institutions which, actually their compliance departments staffed with the stupidest employees recruited from their own ranks, which are causing the problems.

 

to give you an example. under the global KYC agreement (read wiki)

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

financial institutions were asked to review their clients status pertaining to potential terroristic financing, drug dealing, money laundering, road to wealth, etc. one of the two banks we are using in Singapore (being clients for 14 respectively 9 years) found out that there are some gaps in our file concerning "road to wealth". that lead to the following (among other) ridiculous questions addressing my wife (we are married since 40 years):

 

-please submit an explanation why you are a director and beneficiary of 50% of the company shares which holds the assets of XYZ Inc. but claim you have never worked.

 

addressing me:

 

-please submit some documentation of salaries and profit share for the period 1975 till 1985. simple payslips will suffice.

 

[Snow Leopard]

4 minutes ago, Naam said:

nope! after me mentioning "banks might ask for TINs" the OP clearly stated that's the case. after informing the taxman, paying any taxes due and leaving an EU country an EU-citizen is tax wise free and clear assuming no other ties to the home country. it's the financial institutions which, actually their compliance departments staffed with the stupidest employees recruited from their own ranks, which are causing the problems.

 

to give you an example. under the global KYC agreement (read wiki)

financial institutions were asked to review their clients status pertaining to potential terroristic financing, drug dealing, money laundering, road to wealth, etc. one of the two banks we are using in Singapore (being clients for 14 respectively 9 years) found out that there are some gaps in our file concerning "road to wealth". that lead to the following (among other) ridiculous questions addressing my wife (we are married since 40 years):

 

-please submit an explanation why you are a director and beneficiary of 50% of the company shares which holds the assets of XYZ Inc. but claim you have never worked.

 

addressing me:

 

-please submit some documentation of salaries and profit share for the period 1975 till 1985. simple payslips will suffice.

 

Change you bank

[Naam]

28 minutes ago, humbug said:

So why have an op blatantly trashing the visa through mud by thinking you can get around the headache of opening a company name paying taxes through it and having a work permit. and instead live of a gray area visa in thailand and openly throw the visa under the bus with this type of thread

that you have a reason to bitch about.

[Naam]

Just now, Snow Leopard said:

Change you bank

why? questions which cause a roar of laughter and a ridiculing rebuttal from our side are fun.

[Crisu]

 

 

 

 

addressing me:

 

-please submit some documentation of salaries and profit share for the period 1975 till 1985. simple payslips will suffice.

 

 

 

What? You dont keep that stuff in your records?

 

;-)

[BertM]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

That's just wrong, he lives in thailand and does his tax reporting here. As long as he doesn't stay in his home country (usa excluded) he's out of theit tax system as long as he does thai taxes.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk
 

It's not wrong... If he can get his brokerage firm to quit reporting to his home country, they are not obligated to report to a foreign country like Thailand, then he's clear not to pay taxes at all. I am a retired financial advisor with over 40 years of experience and I know what he's trying to do and he's trying not to pay taxes in either country even though he's professing to want to. He may get away with it, then again he may not. In either case, managing your own portfolio is NOT working...

Edited January 9, 2019 by BertM

[BertM]

The proper way for him to do this would be to move to Thailand for the required time, then file for his Thai tax ID along with his Thai tax return (can hire a qualified tax firm to do this), then after having paid his Thai taxes, he would then file tax return in his home country showing he paid taxes on his worldwide income to Thailand and no taxes would be owed to his home country. By trying to get a Thai tax ID first in order to get his brokerage firm to stop reporting income to his home country just confirms to me that once his income is not reported, then he will be free & clear not to file a Thai tax return. Just because you have a Thai tax ID doesn't mean you have to report all your worldwide income. I know of several expats who live in Thailand full-time that have outside income and they don't report or pay any taxes in Thailand or their home country. Instead of asking TVF how to handle this complex situation, he should be consulting a qualified tax firm.

From, a retired financial advisor

Edited January 9, 2019 by BertM

[Ratt Thai]

Sadly but true... i had to read 8 pages in this topic...

To the OP:

1 thing is correct: you can't apply for a workpermit on a TE visa

But in some cases you just don't need or are exempt for having one...

( Being a director/researcher/expert in an American/Thai treaty, BOI approved company helps )

 

Yes you can request and receive a tax id with a TE visa, piece of cake...

 

Thailand is actually easy and simple with no difficult rules to follow.

 

For obvious reasons i will not go in details on a public forum, but plenty good law firm's, legit, can help you and advise you about TE visa and the business benefits.

 

 

[lkv]

So first of all, Thailand is likely to start implementing AEOI some time after the elections, which are scheduled for 2050. -:)

 

Secondly, for the concerned members of the public, just in case it happens in say 2022, here is some financial planning in advance. Choose a loophole and plan accordingly.

 

https://tax-free.today/blog/35-ways-to-avoid-the-crs/

 

I also advise to potentially consider becoming a tax resident of Cambodia for CRS purposes in the future (if needed). They are 15 years behind Thailand.

 

Worst case, if money allows and tax savings are of significant value, they may outweigh a residency / citizenship programme (passport included) in a country that you may never live in.

 

Then all these CRS things will generate amnesty programmes at a low rate in the future for the home countries.

 

So I would not lose too much sleep over it, but as others said, constant reasearch or professional tax advice will be needed.

Edited January 9, 2019 by lkv

[alexanderhu]

Ks45672: I get that and thank you for your ideas! The real question is whether trading income is table at the time the profit is made. If yes then it’s a whole different story. If not, then of course I can transfer it anywhere in this same tax year except to Thailand and it’ll remain untaxed and I’ll be able to bring it back to Thailand the next tax year.

 

Misty: I read this before. I’m not really worried about the work performed in Thailand part but more about the business in Thailand section. Some could argue that a day trader is in the business of trading on the financial markets and it’s neither a passive investment nor a simple activate wealth manager because the trades are too frequent, they’re leveraged and speculative in nature therefore it is a business. I have asked the local tax authority in writing and they have not responded at all. They said that they have forwarded my questions to the relevant department and they’re going to get back to me. It’s been months since I have sent my questions to them. In fact, I sent them more than once.

 

Rugon: If you were not trading with cryptocurrencies but you simply bought some and you sold them at a higher price then in my opinion that income should be foreign sourced if you bought the cryptocurrencies on an overseas exchange and sold them on an overseas exchange as well.

 

Naam: Are you trying to imply that income from active wealth management means and day trading is both locally sourced because the taxpayer is considered to be engaged in a business?

 

LivinLOS: Could you please tell me more about those busts of professional day trading operations? I haven’t heard about that. By the way, I wasn’t talking about stock trading but currencies and other derivatives.

 

lkv: This is how I think so too. The problem with not clearly defined laws is the risk of abuse because the tax authority may turn a blind eye over a guy who makes €50,000 a year from day trading and pay zero taxes but may use a totally different approach with someone who makes €250,000+ a year. These are just examples but I agree with you that the current legislation allows the system to misused by both parties.

 

Crisu: The 2 million THB or ~€55,000 for the 20 years visa may be a lot but it also gets you a guarantee. The guarantee to be able to live in Thailand for two decades. Yes, there are other and cheaper options but any government can simply cancel those cheaper and shorter options without prior warning as it was the case with Malaysia M2H program. Again, I do not trade stocks but Fx and other derivatives.

 

BertM: The taxes in my home country are so low that it’s not even worth not paying the taxes. If I would have wanted to pay very little then I would have stayed there. I clearly know that cheating on the tax man seems to be easier in theory than it is in practice because you not just have to somehow access the funds but if something goes against you then you have to bring it home as well. Assuming that you don’t want to openly confess that you had been cheating on the tax man for years and you don’t want to pay back taxes and interests, it’s not a good idea. Then the only option left is somehow transferring your money back to your home country without causing much attention but that usually is categorized as money laundering. I know this all, we all had offshore accounts in the EU, it was so popular in the 90s that they were being sold like ice creams on the summer. When we tried to reverse everything the time the EU savings directive then later the CRS was introduced, it was such a nightmare that I highly doubt that a sane person would do this ever again. Personally I won’t do it no matter how much I could save. I would rather move to Paraguay to pay 10% legally if I’d like to save on taxes.

Edited January 9, 2019 by alexanderhu

[BertM]

It is not a business if you are trading only with your own monies no matter how often the trades or the types of securities. And, the gains/profits are taxable in the tax year they are incurred. You know that...

From, a retired financial advisor

Edited January 9, 2019 by BertM

[arithai12]

OP I am not sure that you are still reading all the comments after so many have been posted. I didn't. Perhaps what I say now has been already said.

 

I am surprised at your difficulty to obtain a tax ID. I am in a similar situation regarding the wish (not obligation) to pay tax in Thailand. I am now on a retirement visa extended for a few years already. I went to an accountant/lawyer and she got me a new tax ID and did the paperwork to pay tax in Thailand on money earned abroad and transferred here. Her service cost me 2,000B. I understand that you are on a different visa, but the principle should be the same (both TE and Ret are not allowed to work).

 

 

 

[alexanderhu]

BertM: In most countries with territorial tax system or with a remittance basis tax system for certain taxpayers, trading income is categorized as locally sourced income because it is not considered as capital gains. In the following countries this is the case: UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Switzerland. I have checked every single one of them with local tax advisors. You may say that in some of these countries the foreign sourced income is always taxable but you'd be wrong. In some cases there is either a special system for expatriates, for foreigners or in general for certain individuals. The grey area is Panama, Thailand, Costa Rica and Paraguay. Most of the countries where there is any option to pay no tax on foreign sourced income has been checked by tax advisors on my request. So, to answer your question, no, I do not know if day trading is considered as foreign sourced income in Thailand.

 

arithai12: The Thai tax authority refused my request for a tax id and quoted me the law which explains when I'd be eligible for one. It has been quoted in this topic numerous times as well. Basically I'd have to do business, work, etc. When I sent them a request to clarify whether trading income is locally or foreign sourced, they never responded.

Edited January 9, 2019 by alexanderhu

[lkv]

1 hour ago, alexanderhu said:

lkv: This is how I think so too. The problem with not clearly defined laws is the risk of abuse because the tax authority may turn a blind eye over a guy who makes €50,000 a year from day trading and pay zero taxes but may use a totally different approach with someone who makes €250,000+ a year. These are just examples but I agree with you that the current legislation allows the system to misused by both parties.

 

Crisu: The 2 million THB or ~€55,000 for the 20 years visa may be a lot but it also gets you a guarantee. The guarantee to be able to live in Thailand for two decades. Yes, there are other and cheaper options but any government can simply cancel those cheaper and shorter options without prior warning as it was the case with Malaysia M2H program. Again, I do not trade stocks but Fx and other derivatives.

 

BertM: The taxes in my home country are so low that it’s not even worth not paying the taxes. If I would have wanted to pay very little then I would have stayed there. I clearly know that cheating on the tax man seems to be easier in theory than it is in practice because you not just have to somehow access the funds but if something goes against you then you have to bring it home as well. Assuming that you don’t want to openly confess that you had been cheating on the tax man for years and you don’t want to pay back taxes and interests, it’s not a good idea. Then the only option left is somehow transferring your money back to your home country without causing much attention but that usually is categorized as money laundering. I know this all, we all had offshore accounts in the EU, it was so popular in the 90s that they were being sold like ice creams on the summer. When we tried to reverse everything the time the EU savings directive then later the CRS was introduced, it was such a nightmare that I highly doubt that a sane person would do this ever again. Personally I won’t do it no matter how much I could save. I would rather move to Paraguay to pay 10% legally if I’d like to save on taxes.

So you are trying to prevent a risk of you being forced to pay taxes retroactively by the Thai government should it come to that?

 

I suggest you leave Thailand if it loses you sleep at night, and take a loss on that Elite.

 

By the way, I hate to break it to you, but Elite is not guaranteed at all. You are paying to have access to a membership club, where one of the perks (or the only perk in some cases), is a special tourist visa, subject to Immigration changes. The comparisson with M2H is inappropriate for so many reasons.

 

I was under 18 years old in the late nineties, so I guess I did not have an offshore EU account at the time.

[alexanderhu]

lkv: Exactly. Imagine the hefty fines (not to mention the criminal proceedings) if someone is found out to be cheating on the tax man in Thailand for years because he or she thought that his or her income is foreign sourced but the authorities and the court says that it is in fact not. So the fines, the interests and back taxes are a horror on their own but the criminal proceeding is the really bad part because even if the taxpayer is willing to pay all the fines, back taxes and interests they may sentence the taxpayer for some jail time. Not to mention the situation if the taxpayer doesn't have the funds to cover all the fines, back taxes and interests.

Edited January 9, 2019 by alexanderhu

[lkv]

34 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

lkv: Exactly. Imagine the hefty fines (not to mention the criminal proceedings) if someone is found out to be cheating on the tax man in Thailand for years because he or she thought that his or her income is foreign sourced but the authorities and the court says that it is in fact not. So the fines, the penalties and back taxes are a horror on their own but the criminal proceeding is the really bad part because even if the taxpayer is willing to pay all the fines, back taxes and interests they may sentence the taxpayer for some jail time. Not to mention the situation if the taxpayer doesn't have the funds to cover all the fines, back taxes and interests.

Yeah well we all take risks in life. Maybe next time I fly the plane crashes or i get hit by a car on the way to the airport. Or maybe the tax department visits you in your apartment because someone grasses on you, open your laptop, find out it's derivatives, and make up something to bust you.

 

The good news is this:

 

If you are poor, they won't knock at your door, since you are just a small fish.

 

If you are rich, you can afford to pay off any officials and avoid jail time and all that.

 

And to further put your mind at ease. Even if you are Thai and your last name is Shinawatra, you will only be chased for local income tax obligations, and not your bank accounts offshore.

Edited January 9, 2019 by lkv

[alexanderhu]

lkv: I have never bribed nobody, I don't even know how that works or how it can be done, I highly doubt that I'd be good at it. In fact I'm almost sure that I'd try to bribe the wrong person so I just wouldn't try it ????. On the serious side, some clarity from the legislators would be happily welcomed. By the way, your plane won't crash, all your flights will be completed safely, without a single issue and you won't get hit by a car.

Edited January 9, 2019 by alexanderhu

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, alexanderhu said:

lkv: I have never bribed nobody, I don't even know how that works or how it can be done, I highly doubt that I'd be good at it. In fact I'm almost sure that I'd try to bribe the wrong person so I just wouldn't try it ????. On the serious side, some clarity from the legislators would be happily welcomed.

I'm serious. You will not get any clarity, and you will be milked for money if you ask too many questions.

 

It's just the way it is. That's why we use this acronym, TIT. It stands for "This is Thailand" ????

Edited January 9, 2019 by lkv