Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

It was a binary referendum remain equals status quo staying in the eu, staying in the single market and staying in the customs union, leave equals leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union

That is your interpretation. Good for you! So what?

 

Ill bet many of the demographic C- and D classes who voted leave didn't, and still don't, comprehend CU and SM or the ramifications of leaving either ????

[Loiner]

 
The link, for what it's worth, is from a dubious source, an American extreme right wing group and the mods could choose to delete it on that basis too. 

Only left wing and conforming to some people’s opinion posts allowed on this forum?



Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vinny41]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

That is your interpretation. Good for you! So what?

 

Ill bet many of the demographic C- and D classes who voted leave didn't, and still don't, comprehend CU and SM or the ramifications of leaving either ????

Everyone I know that voted leave clearly understood what they were voting for you can bet all you like but at the end of the day its just your opinion which is only valid for you and no-one else

[CG1 Blue]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU will not tolerate the current Irish border arrangements you say.  What exactly will they do to Ireland when Ireland refuses to harden the border? 

Or do you think Ireland will cave in and harden the border, risking a return to the troubles? 

 

Please answer this. 

Either GB AND NI stay in CU or there will be a border down the Irish Sea. I can't see the Republic leaving the EU just to keep England happy.

The UK will not agree to a border down the Irish Sea. So that won't happen. 

[7by7]

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Tell me, is the EU project closer to a federal Europe than it was 40 years ago? Is it closer to a federal Europe than it was 20 years ago? 10 years ago? You must be able to see the direction of travel!

 

The ECJ was a myth at one time, as was an EU President...

 

It seems you would prefer to have our country sleepwalk into a US of E. 

 

 

 It seems to me that you don't really understand what federalism means.

 

The basic definition of federalism is a form of government in which there is a division of powers between two levels of government of equal status. 

 

Basically, in a federal system a central government has certain responsibilities and powers, whilst the governments of individual member states have other responsibilities and powers. Who has what responsibilities and powers is determined when the federation is first negotiated and enshrined in the agreement, or constitution, setting up the federation. Though, if the original written agreement or constitution allows, these responsibilities and powers can be moved between the central power and the individual member states as time goes on with the agreement of the member states.

 

The USA is a federal system where each individual state can make laws for that state alone but is subservient to the federal government in other areas. The federal government alone is responsible for things such as foreign policy, defence etc.

 

But a federation does not have to follow that model, and I have seen nothing, except scare stories and half truths, to justify assumptions that the EU is heading toward, as you put it, a US of E. 

[bomber]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I totally agree. No doubt the reaminers on here will bury their heads in the sand and blame it on fake news. Simply they just can't accept the truth.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-european-army-france-russia-us-military-defence-eu-a8619721.html

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

 

 

 

cannot see why brits are upset at the prospect of a euro army,surely its just another version of NATO which was mostly made up of euro nations anyway,the new version would be much better tho as it wont involve uncle sam,so it will save billions and never be needed,WIN WIN WIN,

[7by7]

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU will not tolerate the current Irish border arrangements you say.  What exactly will they do to Ireland when Ireland refuses to harden the border? 

Or do you think Ireland will cave in and harden the border, risking a return to the troubles? 

 

Please answer this. 

You've answered it yourself with your Barnier quote!

 

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

It seems the EU chief negotiator today admitted there will be no hard border.  From the Independent today: 

Michel Barnier said repeated requests for a time limit on the controversial backstop had already been discussed and rejected twice by EU leaders. But he also signalled there could be a way to avoid a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no deal, telling an EU committee on Wednesday: “We will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border.”

"We will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border.”

 

Not that there will be no checks and controls!

 

If there is no border, how and where will these checks and controls Barnier says will be necessary if there is no deal be carried out?

[7by7]

15 hours ago, nontabury said:

Before you state that the creation of an E.U army is a scare story, can I suggest that you contact Angela Merkel, she who must be obeyed.

And if you think this is not sufficient proof,of what they intend, I can provide you with many more examples.

 

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

15 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

I totally agree. No doubt the reaminers on here will bury their heads in the sand and blame it on fake news. Simply they just can't accept the truth.

 As i have already said, more than once, 

 

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

As for the EU army. This has been suggested periodically since the 1950s. You (CG1 Blue) say that serious discussions are under way about such an army. Well, Merkel and Macron both spoke in favour of it last year, but where are these discussions taking place, and amongst whom? Again, such a measure would require the unanimous agreement of all members, and even if it ever did come about would very likely allow members to opt out; as per the Euro and Schengen opt outs.

 

I ask you two the same question.

 

Where are these discussions about a EU army taking place, and amongst whom?

 

 

[bomber]

8 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Correct and Leave the EU meant leave the EU, Leave the single market and leave the Customs union in the same way that remain meant staying in all of the above

airbus the latest to big business warning of withdrawing,tens of thousands of well paid jobs probably heading to france,why chew on transporting huge wings 1000 miles and across the channel for a nation who doesnt welcome work,save a fortune building them on the same site as the production line.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Everyone I know that voted leave clearly understood what they were voting for you can bet all you like but at the end of the day its just your opinion which is only valid for you and no-one else

Up 2 U

 

I remain unconvinced that you REALLY understand the SM the CU and related issues such as how WTO actually works. All leading Leavers in parliament that I have heard speak have been technically incorrect and not just with trivialities.

[Grouse]

42 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The UK will not agree to a border down the Irish Sea. So that won't happen. 

Something has to give. The EU is bigger and has far better negotiators. Either we stay in CU or EU will enforce Irish Sea border and stuff the DUP igors.

[7by7]

Quote

8 hours ago nauseus said:

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

That link is behind a pay wall.

 

As for the rest of your post, you still haven't answered the question; if Thatcher was so against the EU, why did she sign the Single European Act?

That was in 1986 before she changed her mind. 

 Your evidence of this being?

 

Before you say "Her 1988 Bruges speech" have a read of it; all of it, not the out of context cherry picked bits used by certain Brexiteers in attempts to 'prove' she would have agreed with them.

 

Full text of Margaret Thatcher's speech to the College of Europe: 'The Bruges Speech'

 

 

[bomber]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Up 2 U

 

I remain unconvinced that you REALLY understand the SM the CU and related issues such as how WTO actually works. All leading Leavers in parliament that I have heard speak have been technically incorrect and not just with trivialities.

vinny doesnt understand the SM and CU just like 80% of his fellow leave voters,they voted because of immigration and for patriotic reasons,but its strange watching and reading everything unfold that immigration is barely mentioned now on both sides,trying to stop a 10-20 year recession has become much more important,immigration has become a trivial matter,who would of thought that 2-3 years ago

[7by7]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

You have gone and done it again and added into the text - my post is still there for all to see - I did not say that they should leave the EU in order to maintain an open border with us. I said to avoid all this. And that includes avoiding the EU generally. You should stop the misquotes.

Yes, you said "all this."

 

But you said it in response to one, and only one, specific.

 

The post in question:

Quote

On 1/22/19 at 05:10  nauseus said:

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 5:06 PM, 7by7 said:

The UK doesn't want a hard border, the RoI doesn't want a hard border.

 

The EU doesn't want a soft border between an EU member and an EU non member. So the answer to your question is the EU!

 

As confirmed today: No-deal Brexit 'means hard border' - European Commission

 

To avoid all this then Eire should leave the EU.

Nothing about "avoiding the EU general," just avoiding a hard border between the UK and RoI.

 

In other words; you suggested that the RoI follow the UK like a meek lap dog!

[melvinmelvin]

25 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 As i have already said, more than once, 

 

 

I ask you two the same question.

 

Where are these discussions about a EU army taking place, and amongst whom?

 

 

so far both Macron and Merkel has expressed interest in public

 

 

[Grouse]

Anyone here note that Brexiteers are good at agreeing what they don't want but are incapable of saying what they would like to see in future. You see in the run up to the referendum they were told what to hate but not what to love. Letting Brexiters state what they would like would have been too decisive AND turned them into a laughing stock (which has now happened).

 

So they know what they don't want but don't really understand why

 

They don't know what they do want because they haven't been told.

 

And they want us to agree with them! Agree with what? ????

[7by7]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

so far both Macron and Merkel has expressed interest in public

 

 

I know, I said so.

 

But are there any serious discussions taking place, and if so where and amongst whom?

 

Remember, this idea has been mooted by various politicians since the 1950s; but there is no European Army!

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

so far both Macron and Merkel has expressed interest in public

 

 

Should they rely upon Trump's America? UK? With what? European self defence sounds quite rational to me.

 

I liked Frankie Boyle's comment: NATO is a nickname for a Scottish diabetic amputee! 

[bomber]

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/the-eu-lisbon-treaty-gordon-brown-surrenders-britains-sovereignty

Here it is folks, the LISBON TREATY, a summary:

Signed by Gordon Brown after reneging on a promise of a UK referendum.

We must Leave on March 29 or become a slave state.

* No abstentions (veto)
* Countries become states
* Euro becomes compulsory 2022
* London Stock Exchange moves to Frankfurt
* EU & ECJ become supreme
* No separate trade deals/quotas
* Submit all fishing controls
* Submit oil and gas rights
* Schengen open borders by 2022
* Submit planning legislation
* Submit armed forces incl nuclear
* Submit taxation policy
* Submit laws & legal procedures
* Submit divest our Commonwealth and offshore territories
* Submits all national &
* international policies
* Submit UK nation status
* Submit Space research
* Submit aviation & marine control
* We lose our rebate by 2020


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that will look like a work of at after 3 years of no deal and and 1 year of corbyn

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Should they rely upon Trump's America? UK? With what? European self defence sounds quite rational to me.

 

I liked Frankie Boyal's comment: NATO is a nickname for a Scottish diabetic amputee! 

of course, Trump's recent rhetoric re pulling out of Nato has spurred

otherwise docile defence politicians into thinking, in several countries

from birth of a feather to a European army coop is a loooooong way

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, melvinmelvin said:

of course, Trump's recent rhetoric re pulling out of Nato has spurred

otherwise docile defence politicians into thinking, in several countries

from birth of a feather to a European army coop is a loooooong way

 

 

I think if EU countries put up 2% toward a European defence force and dumped NATO, the Americans would run back. They couldn't stand it.

[7by7]

18 minutes ago, bomber said:

immigration has become a trivial matter,who would of thought that 2-3 years ago

 Indeed, especially considering Vote Leave's scare story about 70 million Turks (the entire population of Turkey!) just waiting to flood into the UK immediately Turkey becomes a member, and Leave.EU's poster claiming the EU would force us to accept millions of Muslim refugees.

 

Scare stories such as these had far more effect on the average voter than stories about trade deals and the WTO etc.

 

Think I'm wrong; well here's one example:

 

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, bomber said:

that will look like a work of at after 3 years of no deal and and 1 year of corbyn

hi Bomber, this is not your issue. I ignored the original poster

 

Heritage is an extreme American right wing think tank.

 

Several issues raised fail fact checker

 

File under B.S.

 

Here is one example proving the statements are fake

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/euro/eu-countries-and-euro/united-kingdom-and-euro_en

 

Brexit is an important and complex issue. If I notice any further fake news from that poster, I will complain.

[bomber]

16 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Anyone here note that Brexiteers are good at agreeing what they don't want but are incapable of saying what they would like to see in future. You see in the run up to the referendum they were told what to hate but not what to love. Letting Brexiters state what they would like would have been too decisive AND turned them into a laughing stock (which has now happened).

 

So they know what they don't want but don't really understand why

 

They don't know what they do want because they haven't been told.

 

And they want us to agree with them! Agree with what? ????

they dont want an EU army but are happy in nato ???? which is US and canada and the rest made up of european nations,all EU members bar 1 or 2,your right grouse they have no idea what they want and certainly not a collective plan,bojo.jrb and farage would be at loggerheads as how to deliver a perfect brexit,the word that strikes fear into a leave voter is Germany,i would be amazed if the leave vote would of won in a EU in which Germany was not a member.

[Grouse]

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Indeed, especially considering Vote Leave's scare story about 70 million Turks (the entire population of Turkey!) just waiting to flood into the UK immediately Turkey becomes a member, and Leave.EU's poster claiming the EU would force us to accept millions of Muslim refugees.

 

Scare stories such as these had far more effect on the average voter than stories about trade deals and the WTO etc.

 

Think I'm wrong; well here's one example:

 

Hahaha! States he has no problem with Europe immigration, just wants to stop Muslims! Why Brexit then???

 

C- or D????

 

Embarrassing

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Loiner said:

https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/the-eu-lisbon-treaty-gordon-brown-surrenders-britains-sovereignty

Here it is folks, the LISBON TREATY, a summary:

Signed by Gordon Brown after reneging on a promise of a UK referendum.

We must Leave on March 29 or become a slave state.

* No abstentions (veto)
* Countries become states
* Euro becomes compulsory 2022
* London Stock Exchange moves to Frankfurt
* EU & ECJ become supreme
* No separate trade deals/quotas
* Submit all fishing controls
* Submit oil and gas rights
* Schengen open borders by 2022
* Submit planning legislation
* Submit armed forces incl nuclear
* Submit taxation policy
* Submit laws & legal procedures
* Submit divest our Commonwealth and offshore territories
* Submits all national &
* international policies
* Submit UK nation status
* Submit Space research
* Submit aviation & marine control
* We lose our rebate by 2020


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

Hmm, the Heritage Foundation:

Quote

Building an America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish

 

The mission of The Heritage Foundation is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.

 

I don't see your list in their report; could it be because it isn't there and you made it up?

 

Try reading The Lisbon Treaty for dummies and The Treaty of Lisbon for the actual facts.

 

Edit:

I see Grouse got there before me on this one.

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Something has to give. The EU is bigger and has far better negotiators. Either we stay in CU or EU will enforce Irish Sea border and stuff the DUP igors.

I agree the EU governs a larger population than the UK, and the UK has shown distinct weakness so far when it comes to negotiations.  When you say "bigger" are you suggesting the EU would somehow be able to force us to have that border in the Irish Sea, because they are bigger than us? 

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

That is your interpretation. Good for you! So what?

 

Ill bet many of the demographic C- and D classes who voted leave didn't, and still don't, comprehend CU and SM or the ramifications of leaving either ????

 

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Up 2 U

 

I remain unconvinced that you REALLY understand the SM the CU and related issues such as how WTO actually works. All leading Leavers in parliament that I have heard speak have been technically incorrect and not just with trivialities.

 

37 minutes ago, bomber said:

vinny doesnt understand the SM and CU just like 80% of his fellow leave voters,they voted because of immigration and for patriotic reasons,but its strange watching and reading everything unfold that immigration is barely mentioned now on both sides,trying to stop a 10-20 year recession has become much more important,immigration has become a trivial matter,who would of thought that 2-3 years ago

Your posts indicate that you think your vote should count more than anyone else, you are incorrect every person in the UK that is eligible to vote their vote has the same value as everyone else

I am sure if Grouse perfect world he wouldn't let the demographic C- and D classes vote, he would accept them paying taxes but wouldn't allow them a vote 

Back in 1998 Airbus was talking about moving wing production to China

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-may-move-wing-production-to-china-43640/

and wasn't it Airbus that said they would leave the UK if the UK didn't join the Euro

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6610168/sun-says-airbus-brexit-demands/

As to your comments Grouse and bomber about what you think i understand or don't understand

In the words of Tony Blair am i bovvered

 

 

[evadgib]

Our best recruiting Sgts are the Remain camp; Thank you & please keep it up ????

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

You've answered it yourself with your Barnier quote!

 

"We will have to find an operational way of carrying out checks and controls without putting back in place a border.”

 

Not that there will be no checks and controls!

 

If there is no border, how and where will these checks and controls Barnier says will be necessary if there is no deal be carried out?

Note he said "without putting back in place a border". So as I said, no border. 

There are already checks and controls, and they will presumably add a few more to deal with the wider customs checks. But crucially no border.