Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[bannork]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

On the basis that we voted to leave the EU.  

So because the population voted 52-48% we must abandon 40 years of agreements and trade deals with a trading bloc on our doorstep. And what do we gain for this enormous loss?

Brexiteers say the ability to control our destiny.

But what control will we have in negotiations with the EU when we're one country versus 27? Our sovereignty won't mean a tick then.

[nauseus]

41 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

It's had a surge recently, but even so has averaged just 610 signatures a day in it's almost 6 months of existence (6 days left to go, not 9).

 

I doubt that in that 6 days it will reach anywhere near the 134,000 signatures Grant a People's Vote if Parliament rejects the EU Withdrawal Agreement has reached so far; and that's still got 4 months to run! Even though, unlike yours, it reached it's 100,000 target in time to be debated along with a load of other Brexit ones on 14th January. All of which were rejected, both those calling for a no deal Brexit and those calling for another referendum.

 

N>B> it is the petitions committee which debates qualifying petitions; not the full House.

 

An average of 4000 per day is a lot better than an average of 610 per day!

 

It may take another 17 days to reach 100,000. But, unlike your preferred petition, it has only been running for 9 days so still has well over 5 months to go! 

 

Bets on what? If you want me to bet that in the first month and a half of it's life the second referendum will have passed the number of signatures the first managed in the whole 6 months of it's life; I'll take that bet!

 

 

Yeah, yeah. I saw my error and changed the numbers. We'll see what happens with your preferred petition.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, bannork said:

So because the population voted 52-48% we must abandon 40 years of agreements and trade deals with a trading bloc on our doorstep. And what do we gain for this enormous loss?

Brexiteers say the ability to control our destiny.

But what control will we have in negotiations with the EU when we're one country versus 27? Our sovereignty won't mean a tick then.

We are already one against 27 and the EU has not negotiated in any fair and reasonable sense of the word. It looks like we will have to leave to convince it to do just that.

[nauseus]

45 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

So are you saying that because the government asked Airbus for their opinion, Airbus are lying?

 

Any comment on the comments by the Chief Executive of Airbus quoted in the FT article posted by Grouse?

 

I think CG is saying that it's just more Project Fear. The "Hidden Hand of Hammond" perhaps?

[bannork]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

We are already one against 27 and the EU has not negotiated in any fair and reasonable sense of the word. It looks like we will have to leave to convince it to do just that.

We voted to leave the club. They have already negotiated terms with us. Our Parliament rejected those terms. They are under no obligation to give us anything more, and why should they? We asked to leave.

The onus is on us to accept their terms.

[Loiner]

It's not me posting lies made up 'facts' in a feeble effort to 'prove' a lie non existent point!

The only ‘facts’ are historical in the past.
I post opinion and speculation. Mine are about what effects of Remaining would be. They are equally as relevant as yours. They are probably more likely too, but you cannot prove that.

Don’t expect me to concede to your own rabid Remainer predictions of UK economic doom or be cowed by your rants. If you don’t like, please it feel free to do one


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Spidey]

Just now, Loiner said:

The only ‘facts’ are historical in the past.
I post opinion and speculation. Mine are about what effects of Remaining would be. They are equally as relevant as yours. They are probably more likely too, but you cannot prove that.

Don’t expect me to concede to your own rabid Remainer predictions of UK economic doom or be cowed by your rants. If you don’t like, please it feel free to do one


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

In other words, "Jakanory, Jakanory".. You should preface all your posts with that.

[nauseus]

42 minutes ago, bannork said:

We voted to leave the club. They have already negotiated terms with us. Our Parliament rejected those terms. They are under no obligation to give us anything more, and why should they? We asked to leave.

The onus is on us to accept their terms.

Not according to Article 50 it isn't.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

No, I'm not saying Airbus are lying. They are painting the worst case scenario picture in order to bolster the case for staying in the EU. They receive a lot of financial assistance from the EU, so I don't blame them. 

What I don't like is our government prodding people and companies to say these things, and thinking we won't find out they prodded them. 

In my view the Airbus CEO  is a total pissartist and <deleted>. He is surplus human material - not needed.

If Airbus board had any sense they would chuck him out and replace him with somebody

with a reasonable comprehension of modern politics in democracies.

What does the sod think he is? A godsend to Europe because he produces some flying machine parts here?

My gawd, I dislike people like that.

"I make wings for flying machines, UK parliament and government must follow my wishes"

makes me puke

 

 

Europe doesn't need industrialists not respecting political processes,

Europe needs industrialists who can work in harmony with established  governments,

including the crappy UK government

 

That CEO would make good company for TM in the dungeons.

 

[bomber]

10 minutes ago, Loiner said:

The only ‘facts’ are historical in the past.
I post opinion and speculation. Mine are about what effects of Remaining would be. They are equally as relevant as yours. They are probably more likely too, but you cannot prove that.

Don’t expect me to concede to your own rabid Remainer predictions of UK economic doom or be cowed by your rants. If you don’t like, please it feel free to do one


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

for all the patriotic leave voters even your your great Queen is against brexit,come on tell us she is a doom merchant just like 90% of business leaders/MPs,pity she doesnt have the power of the Thai royal family.

[Loiner]

In other words, "Jakanory, Jakanory".. You should preface all your posts with that.

Look out the tag team is here.
There was always a c in that or did you never see the original.
So tell us a Remainer story Balamory.



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[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

I think CG is saying that it's just more Project Fear. The "Hidden Hand of Hammond" perhaps?

Since when do companies care about anything else than their business and shareholders? 

[Spidey]

17 minutes ago, Loiner said:

o tell us a Remainer story Balamory.

I don't post stories. I post facts, backed up with relevant links from reputable sites.

 

BTW. What happened to your list of "facts" regarding the Lisbon Treaty, I can't find it.

[CG1 Blue]

31 minutes ago, bomber said:

for all the patriotic leave voters even your your great Queen is against brexit,come on tell us she is a doom merchant just like 90% of business leaders/MPs,pity she doesnt have the power of the Thai royal family.

How do you know HRH is against Brexit? 

[melvinmelvin]

2 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

How do you know HRH is against Brexit? 

 

He has high tea with her on Wednesdays

 

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I've deleted the scam email from the quote of your post, for obvious reasons.

I have no idea why you got that scam email rather than the one from the petitions site.

 

I have signed several petitions in the last few days, and have always received the correct confirmation email.

 

For example: 

 

I believe British citizens can sign even if they are not UK residents.

 

I'm no IT expert, far from it, but maybe you've got a virus of some kind?

 

 Just to confirm that dick dastardly is not the only one, who has had problems signing this petition. I also, so it’s quite conceivable that perhaps this applies to many more people.

 

 

[vogie]

These are 9 deceptions with the EU our governments tried to keep secret, here is just one.

 

"7. Blair 'at heart of Europe’

Tony Blair’s ambition to be “at the heart of Europe” led him to collaborate fully with moves to make the European Council (another Monnet idea) the EU’s political “Cabinet of Europe”, with its own foreign and defence policies, and also towards giving the EU its own “Constitution”, to make it in effect a sovereign government on the world stage."

And if Tony Blair doesn't like the referendum result and wants another referendum, maybe he should consider having another Chilcot enquiry, there are many of our citizens that don't like that result.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/12176234/Nine-deceptions-in-our-history-with-the-EU.html

[7by7]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

No, I'm not saying Airbus are lying. They are painting the worst case scenario picture in order to bolster the case for staying in the EU. They receive a lot of financial assistance from the EU, so I don't blame them. 

Lot's of UK companies and industries receive grants and subsidies from the EU.

 

But why would the EU continue to pay subsidies to companies and industries in the UK post Brexit?

 

Of course, Airbus is a pan EU company; but why would they continue to manufacture in the UK and source parts and materials in the UK post Brexit, especially if there is no deal, if it will be cheaper to transfer all their UK factories and suppliers to the EU? 

 

They are a business, not a charity.

 

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

What I don't like is our government prodding people and companies to say these things, and thinking we won't find out they prodded them. 

The government asked them to state their opinion on the effects to them of a no deal Brexit; as Ms Bennett says in the interview: “They did say could you make sure that you make clear the potential impact of a No Deal, and we are happy to do that because No Deal is potentially going to be catastrophic for us.”

 

Of course, this is anathema to Brexiteers; they still believe the pony peddled to them by the leave campaign that without the EU countries will be queueing up to trade with us and foreign businesses will be queueing up to open factories in the UK!

 

Time for them to wake up and join the real world before it's too late.

 

 

[bomber]

31 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

How do you know HRH is against Brexit? 

it was on the radio today,her statement was worded to the effect of staying in,very very clear though.surely not many left now with an ounce of common sense who would want a hard brexit/no deal,30-40 MPs and farage and spoonies boss.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Loiner said:

The only ‘facts’ are historical in the past.
I post opinion and speculation. Mine are about what effects of Remaining would be. They are equally as relevant as yours. They are probably more likely too, but you cannot prove that.

Don’t expect me to concede to your own rabid Remainer predictions of UK economic doom or be cowed by your rants. If you don’t like, please it feel free to do one


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

You didn't post opinion, you didn't post speculation. You posted a list of lies and claimed they were fact, using a ten year old source you obviously hoped no one would look at closely because you list doesn't actually appear anywhere in any article published by that source!

 

When challenged on that you claimed you must have obtained these 'facts' from elsewhere because you do your own research.

 

So were you lying when you said they were facts obtained from your own research, or are you lying now when you say they are not facts but your opinion and speculation?

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

We are already one against 27 and the EU has not negotiated in any fair and reasonable sense of the word. It looks like we will have to leave to convince it to do just that.

 

2 hours ago, bannork said:

We voted to leave the club. They have already negotiated terms with us. Our Parliament rejected those terms. They are under no obligation to give us anything more, and why should they? We asked to leave.

The onus is on us to accept their terms.

 Exactly, bannork.

 

But as nauseus' post shows, a large number of Brexiteers still believe the lies they were told by the Leave campaign; that we could leave on our terms and the other 27 would give us everything we wanted.

 

I couldn't believe how anyone fell for that line at the time, and I find it incredible that two and a half years later people are still falling for it!

 

The EU owe us nothing. We chose to leave, all the EU has to do is wave us bye bye. They do not have to negotiate, they certainly do not have to agree to our terms.

 

Obviously, a continuing arrangement between us is good for us both; but we need a deal more than they do.

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

2 hours ago, bannork said:

<snip>

The onus is on us to accept their terms.

Not according to Article 50 it isn't.

 

 

Para 2 of Article 50 includes

Quote

the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union

 I can't find it saying anywhere that "the Union shall give the leaving State everything that State wants!"

 

Of course, the mere fact that the EU haven't given us everything we want, despite the promises of the Leave campaign, means in the minds of many Brexiteers that

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

the EU has not negotiated in any fair and reasonable sense of the word

 

To a Brexiteer fair and reasonable negotiations mean the UK telling the EU to jump and the EU asking how high!

[CG1 Blue]

59 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Lot's of UK companies and industries receive grants and subsidies from the EU.

 

But why would the EU continue to pay subsidies to companies and industries in the UK post Brexit?

 

Of course, Airbus is a pan EU company; but why would they continue to manufacture in the UK and source parts and materials in the UK post Brexit, especially if there is no deal, if it will be cheaper to transfer all their UK factories and suppliers to the EU? 

 

They are a business, not a charity.

 

The government asked them to state their opinion on the effects to them of a no deal Brexit; as Ms Bennett says in the interview: “They did say could you make sure that you make clear the potential impact of a No Deal, and we are happy to do that because No Deal is potentially going to be catastrophic for us.”

 

Of course, this is anathema to Brexiteers; they still believe the pony peddled to them by the leave campaign that without the EU countries will be queueing up to trade with us and foreign businesses will be queueing up to open factories in the UK!

 

Time for them to wake up and join the real world before it's too late.

 

 

I'm not aware that the government has ever asked a pro-Brexit business owner to speak about the impact of leaving the EU. It's the deceit from the government that I don't like. 

[nontabury]

56 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Lot's of UK companies and industries receive grants and subsidies from the EU.

 

But why would the EU continue to pay subsidies to companies and industries in the UK post Brexit?

 

Of course, Airbus is a pan EU company; but why would they continue to manufacture in the UK and source parts and materials in the UK post Brexit, especially if there is no deal, if it will be cheaper to transfer all their UK factories and suppliers to the EU? 

 

They are a business, not a charity.

 

The government asked them to state their opinion on the effects to them of a no deal Brexit; as Ms Bennett says in the interview: “They did say could you make sure that you make clear the potential impact of a No Deal, and we are happy to do that because No Deal is potentially going to be catastrophic for us.”

 

Of course, this is anathema to Brexiteers; they still believe the pony peddled to them by the leave campaign that without the EU countries will be queueing up to trade with us and foreign businesses will be queueing up to open factories in the UK!

 

Time for them to wake up and join the real world before it's too late.

 

 

 

 So can you therefore confirm that the U.K subsidiesed Airbus, does NOT source or manufacture their parts outside of the E.U. 

And while your at it, confirm that it’s untrue that the E.u were found guilty of paying billions in illegal subsidies to Airbus.

 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, bomber said:

it was on the radio today,her statement was worded to the effect of staying in,very very clear though.surely not many left now with an ounce of common sense who would want a hard brexit/no deal,30-40 MPs and farage and spoonies boss.

Sorry but that's false. Her wording did not allude to staying in at all. I really don't know how you came to that conclusion! 

 

She generally stays politically neutral, but don't forget just before the referendum she was reported to have told Nick Clegg she didn't like the direction the EU was heading in. 

 

 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, bomber said:

it was on the radio today,her statement was worded to the effect of staying in,very very clear though.surely not many left now with an ounce of common sense who would want a hard brexit/no deal,30-40 MPs and farage and spoonies boss.

Hope this clears the matter up.????????????

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Since when do companies care about anything else than their business and shareholders? 

When they do special requests.

[nauseus]

46 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

Para 2 of Article 50 includes

 I can't find it saying anywhere that "the Union shall give the leaving State everything that State wants!"

 

Of course, the mere fact that the EU haven't given us everything we want, despite the promises of the Leave campaign, means in the minds of many Brexiteers that

 

To a Brexiteer fair and reasonable negotiations mean the UK telling the EU to jump and the EU asking how high!

The usual distorted, inane and false claims and assumptions. Not tonight, Josephine, I have a headache.

[bomber]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Hope this clears the matter up.????????????

 

sorry but that was was nearly 3 years ago,was she another one who fell for the lies and BS at the time?was the story was ever true? NO,she hasnt supported democracy either as leave won,after seeing the damage who wants democracy.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, bomber said:

sorry but that was was nearly 3 years ago,was she another one who fell for the lies and BS at the time?was the story was ever true?  what i heard was a clear indication to remain and it was quoting her.

You obviously have a link then? It is of my opinion that our Queen would normally remain neutral on matters such as these.