Added Difficulties In Thai Language

[ColPyat]

Personally, i find a huge difficulty in Thai language is a culture specific subtlety most western cultures do not express in their language.

In many ways spoken Thai language is very minimalistic, pronouns, tenses etc. will be left out in colloquial Thai. That in turn leaves many spoken statements open to interpretation, and very often purposely so. In a way, even every day conversation turns into a sort of code that only the initiated will understand. It starts with the obvious dangerous political topics, in which things will only be hinted at, but understood, yet still innocent enough to make an easy retreat if it would cause confrontation.

But also in all completely innocent situations superficially simple expressions said in a few words express vast hidden meanings.

A slightly banal example is the so often heard and used "Dam Jai", mostly mistranslated as "Up to you". But basically, verbally translated it means "Follow your heart". That though implies that the so addressed has to know without further explanation by heart the correct decision that satisfies both ends, including all possible future implications of that decision.

There are far more of such examples (even though none that i can describe without writing a novel springs to my mind right now ). What i am trying to say here, is that literal translations are often not enough, because literal translations cannot express the full subtleties Thai language and culture expresses.

I think a lot of misunderstandings by both sides are caused by the different use, or code, of communication by the cultures, even though both sides might be superficially fluent in each other's language. Where mostly our western cultures lay emphasis on a direct approach to verbal communication, in Thailand importance i laid upon hinting on concepts that will be understood without having to fix oneself and the other on a clear position.

This, i feel, leads also many people to believe that Thais are emotionally somewhat shallow, while i believe that Thais are as emotional as anybody else, though emotional conditions are far more hidden, and only hinted at with utmost subtlety. Well, up to the point that they break out in one huge explosion.

Dunno if i was able to bring my point across well, it's not an easy concept to write about.

[boxig]

ตามใจ = up to you

This sentence was the source to a lot of misunderstanding between me and my wife for many years. In my "neighborhood" you usually say 'Up to you' when you have a sort of dispute or argument and give up to the other person with some resentment. I am still not sure if in Thai it is a pure 'up to you' or has a hidden meaning.

box

[kojac_phx]

ตามใจ = up to you

This sentence was the source to a lot of misunderstanding between me and my wife for many years. In my "neighborhood" you usually say 'Up to you' when you have a sort of dispute or argument and give up to the other person with some resentment. I am still not sure if in Thai it is a pure 'up to you' or has a hidden meaning.

box

In the US I think it's typically used when one can go with any of the options presented and you don't really have a preference. I would say the way it's used in your neighborhood is closer to the Thai meaning, but with the added implication that you choose something agreeable to the other person and less resentment. It's typically used when they feel they've made their position clear, and want you to select what they desire or don't want to impose their decision upon you, but rather have you come to understand what they want.

[aanon]

ตามใจ = up to you

This sentence was the source to a lot of misunderstanding between me and my wife for many years. In my "neighborhood" you usually say 'Up to you' when you have a sort of dispute or argument and give up to the other person with some resentment. I am still not sure if in Thai it is a pure 'up to you' or has a hidden meaning.

box

hi there,

on ตามใจ i think it's correct that 'up to you' doesn't really capture the meaning. i think a better translation into english might be 'you do what you want' or 'i'll do what you want'. as mentioned it often comes up when one side of an argument concedes or relinquishes power, so maybe in those cases 'ok, you win' is also a valid translation.

i don't think it implies any more that 'do what you want', although it is right to say that both 'do what you want' and ตามใจ, in handing over the power to decide, also place a certain amount of responsibility to the decision maker.

this is certainly a case where an incomplete understanding could cause misunderstandings - you intend to say 'oh, up to you' with enthusiasm and you end up saying 'do whatever the hel_l you want'!

btw, แล้วแต่คุณ(จะเลือก) is a reasonable choice for 'up to you'.

colpyat, you're right, learning a language and a culture is a lifelong endeavour.

all the best.

[ColPyat]

colpyat, you're right, learning a language and a culture is a lifelong endeavour.

all the best.

Culture and language are intrinsically interconnected, much of one's culture specific psychology is expressed through communication, language and non verbal communication.

I believe that here in Thailand this is even more valid than in the west, because we are here only at the beginning of a move towards a more egalitarian society, and the use of language still expresses social hierarchies that are a thing of the past in most western countries, and which some western countries, such as the US, never even had.

[taxexile]

Dunno if i was able to bring my point across well, it's not an easy concept to write about.

you put your point across very well indeed , i have tried to post about this myself and have never been able to express myself properly , resulting in abandoned posts.

i agree that so many of the misunderstandings between thais and foriegners are due to the often seemingly ambiguous nature of translated thai.

the desire to avoid confrontation can also give the (false) impression that thais have no point of view other than the bland and overtly diplomatic "middle way".

also place a certain amount of responsibility to the decision maker.

and god help them if they get it wrong.

[ColPyat]

i agree that so many of the misunderstandings between thais and foriegners are due to the often seemingly ambiguous nature of translated thai.

I regularly face the problem when i have to translate specific questions from westerners new to this place here to Thais that i have to interpret the answers because literally translated these statements would mean absolutely nothing, and would give the mistaken impression that the Thai person would have given a not so intelligent answer, while in fact the opposite is true.

Even worse is that within Thai contemporary culture, especially now in the very unstable political climate, there are certain questions one cannot directly ask strangers without having first carefully tested the ground, and even then, direct answers will still rarely be given, and only in a very ambiguous way which translation will not do justice.

I recently had a conversation with a regime critical academic about this, and his point was that many of those subtleties in Thai language stem from the fact that this is not an open society, and to guard themselves people are forced to escape into ambiguity.

He might have a point there. When i converse with close friends about the usually forbidden subjects, suddenly the language and opinions expressed become far more direct, the same way how after years of having a relationship here, our wives don't dance around the subject anymore, and are as blunt as anybody else.

Still though, in many ways Thai culture demands of people to be on constant guard against others, and therefore people have to evade into subtleties and codes that we in most western societies simply do not need to employ.

Edited March 1, 2007 by ColPyat

[davidjtayler]

Very well put Colonel and some very interesting points .. as with many languages but even more so with Thai language, the language itself is only half the battle... the culture and the subtle nuances thet follow making up the other half.

The longer you stay here the more you learn and it's an ongoing process but very rewarding.

Another example to the 'dam jai' example is the 'mai ow' (I don't want) example where some schools of thought maintain that this reply can be perceived as too blunt or too direct and that other replies are preferable avoiding directness (it's interesting that non confrontational situations can follow even into the language itself).

Thai language has many different facets and often depends on the situation and/or the hierachical standing that the converstion takes place ... as always strangers or unfamiliar persons will talk much more politely to each other than close friends or partners.

As the Colonel has pointed out in previous threads regarding spoken 'slang' Thai ... there are times and places for the different types or styles of Thai language and its best to be clued up when and where is appropriate to use these styles (if you must use) otherwise one can be looked upon as very ignorant.

[Tarragona]

A lot of good points in this thread.

It highlights why it is worth learning to read the language because it gives you more chance to take in and think about ways in which the language is used. It also gives you access to sources of information and ideas that go against the mainstream - particularly in these www days.

[ColPyat]

A lot of good points in this thread.

It highlights why it is worth learning to read the language because it gives you more chance to take in and think about ways in which the language is used. It also gives you access to sources of information and ideas that go against the mainstream - particularly in these www days.

I do somewhat disagree that reading is a necessity regarding those points. I don't say that it is not an advantage, but especially in those "www" days every plonker can spread his fantasies unedited, uninformed rumors and urban legends galore. I prefer to get my non-mainstream information by directly conversing with people which are known for their peer reviewed publications. And there are many papers and studies available in English as well, and for others there are translation services.

Many of the culture specific nuances will only be experienced via immersion, by direct communication with people of different social and class backgrounds.

[meadish_sweetball]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

[ColPyat]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

There is though one in particular i have for which i am looking for a discreet translator. It's published in Thai, from a published book, but i very much hesitate to go to a normal translation service, even in universities, it's just too sensitive.

[Tarragona]

especially in those "www" days every plonker can spread his fantasies unedited, uninformed rumors and urban legends galore. I prefer to get my non-mainstream information by directly conversing with people which are known for their peer reviewed publications. And there are many papers and studies available in English as well, and for others there are translation services.

Many of the culture specific nuances will only be experienced via immersion, by direct communication with people of different social and class backgrounds.

I don't disagree with any that. Obviously you have to use your intelligence, I take that as a given. Of course you should talk to people. And of course you can go through translation services - but being able to read means that's an unnecessary step and you are less likely to miss out on something you would find interesting.

[ColPyat]

I don't disagree with any that. Obviously you have to use your intelligence, I take that as a given. Of course you should talk to people. And of course you can go through translation services - but being able to read means that's an unnecessary step and you are less likely to miss out on something you would find interesting.

I know, and trust me, i would love to be able to read and write Thai. I have rather severe ADD, and had the misfortune to be one of the Ritalin kids, and so i never grew out of it. I simply cannot concentrate long enough on one thing at a time, which would be necessary to properly learn to read and write Thai.

[aanon]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

a little off topic...if you can get your hands on february's ฅ.คน magazine, there is a pretty straight-shooting interview with นิธิ เอียวศรีวงศ์, retired academic, historian, founder of 'midnight university'. he dares to touch on such things as:

'let's suppose one is a royalist. is total lack of criticism of the whole institution of royalty really the best thing for it?'

also covers thaksin, violence in thai politics, the difficulties arising from His Majesty mentioning sufficiency economy and never explaining what he meant, endemic corruption and power-monging in politics etc.

all in thai, and seemingly a straight transcript of the interview, so also a good challenge in reading pretty unstructured spoken thai.

all the best.

[tgeezer]

btw, แล้วแต่คุณ(จะเลือก) is a reasonable choice for 'up to you'.

colpyat, you're right, learning a language and a culture is a lifelong endeavour.

all the best.

the explanation of ตามใจ in my dictionary is แล้วแต่ใจ which doesn't help.

[tgeezer]

A lot of good points in this thread.

It highlights why it is worth learning to read the language because it gives you more chance to take in and think about ways in which the language is used. It also gives you access to sources of information and ideas that go against the mainstream - particularly in these www days.

I do somewhat disagree that reading is a necessity regarding those points. I don't say that it is not an advantage, but especially in those "www" days every plonker can spread his fantasies unedited, uninformed rumors and urban legends galore. I prefer to get my non-mainstream information by directly conversing with people which are known for their peer reviewed publications. And there are many papers and studies available in English as well, and for others there are translation services.

Many of the culture specific nuances will only be experienced via immersion, by direct communication with people of different social and class backgrounds.

Without the www. I don't think we would know the meaning of the word "plonker"! Languages are fluid and constantly changeing such that it almost means what ever you want it to mean, especially in conversation when there is the opportunity to modify what is said continuously. There is much in Thai which would not have been there in the past (and I don't mean 'astronaught') I refer to the adoption of foreign values and the expressions which go with them. Thais have given us "cheap charlie" for instance although there are many in England who do not know it. We have perhaps given them "I love you", this 'plonker' would like to fantasize that it only existed in the biblical sense before. A past King tried to give them 'arun sawad' but you only see it in subtitles of films. We have no way of knowing whether "first; I would like to apologise" ( another post) is in the language but it soon will be.

[aanon]

the explanation of ตามใจ in my dictionary is แล้วแต่ใจ which doesn't help.

hi tgeezer,

i can see the confusion there. the dictionary definition is actually correct, but dictionaries are often not that good at explaining the appropriate contexts for using each word or phrase.

if we're just talking about the absolute meaning, "up to you" and "(do) what you want" also both mean the same thing. it's experience that tells us that the latter, said in a particular way, sounds angry and abrupt.

all the best.

[tgeezer]

the explanation of ตามใจ in my dictionary is แล้วแต่ใจ which doesn't help.

hi tgeezer,

i can see the confusion there. the dictionary definition is actually correct, but dictionaries are often not that good at explaining the appropriate contexts for using each word or phrase.

if we're just talking about the absolute meaning, "up to you" and "(do) what you want" also both mean the same thing. it's experience that tells us that the latter, said in a particular way, sounds angry and abrupt.

all the best.

พระเจ้าช่วยกล้วยทอด A brilliant example of the moving language. Current usage which may be gone tomorrow if it doesn't catch on. Oh my god with a banana reference to make it ryming. Started out about a year ago apparently, but is being used on the tele so it must be good for a laugh on the golf course. Hope you all find it amusing.

[dseawarrior]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

a little off topic...if you can get your hands on february's ?.?? magazine, there is a pretty straight-shooting interview with ???? ????????????, retired academic, historian, founder of 'midnight university'. he dares to touch on such things as:

'let's suppose one is a royalist. is total lack of criticism of the whole institution of royalty really the best thing for it?'

also covers thaksin, violence in thai politics, the difficulties arising from His Majesty mentioning sufficiency economy and never explaining what he meant, endemic corruption and power-monging in politics etc.

all in thai, and seemingly a straight transcript of the interview, so also a good challenge in reading pretty unstructured spoken thai.

all the best.

Thank you aanon for this interesting post... Any chance that you can give us a link to ?.?? magazine or where to find it? Are there links on the web or have these been censored or suppressed???

I would like to study by reading Thai on current events...

Any recommendations for a really really good Thai-English dictionary??? I have B.P Becker's dictionary which very OK for a beginner but I need something on the "next level" and I am willing to pay to a premium for a very good resource... Does Thailand have something like the OED (Oxford English Dictionary)?

Thanks for your information and help!

Cheers!

dseawarrior

[themuse1969]

Most interesting! I have lived in a number of countries and I get what you are alluding to. I will have my first visit to Thailand at the end of the year. I am corresponding with a couple of people. I ask them--in basic, present-moment "pidgeon" english--intimate questions about their day to day life, their dreams, their feelings. They rarely reply in detail so I'm not really getting to know them, intellectually. Instead, they simply say they agree, or understand, and then express their longing and ask many questions of me. I think they are getting to know me, and I must wait to meet them in person to get my desired acquaintence with them!

And, you know.....what comes through, between the virtual lines, is a beautiful, gentle tone that is quite attractive. I shall remain heart-centered and just learn to swim in Thai culture and language when I get there.

Cheers

Personally, i find a huge difficulty in Thai language is a culture specific subtlety most western cultures do not express in their language.

In many ways spoken Thai language is very minimalistic, pronouns, tenses etc. will be left out in colloquial Thai. That in turn leaves many spoken statements open to interpretation, and very often purposely so. In a way, even every day conversation turns into a sort of code that only the initiated will understand. It starts with the obvious dangerous political topics, in which things will only be hinted at, but understood, yet still innocent enough to make an easy retreat if it would cause confrontation.

But also in all completely innocent situations superficially simple expressions said in a few words express vast hidden meanings.

A slightly banal example is the so often heard and used "Dam Jai", mostly mistranslated as "Up to you". But basically, verbally translated it means "Follow your heart". That though implies that the so addressed has to know without further explanation by heart the correct decision that satisfies both ends, including all possible future implications of that decision.

There are far more of such examples (even though none that i can describe without writing a novel springs to my mind right now ). What i am trying to say here, is that literal translations are often not enough, because literal translations cannot express the full subtleties Thai language and culture expresses.

I think a lot of misunderstandings by both sides are caused by the different use, or code, of communication by the cultures, even though both sides might be superficially fluent in each other's language. Where mostly our western cultures lay emphasis on a direct approach to verbal communication, in Thailand importance i laid upon hinting on concepts that will be understood without having to fix oneself and the other on a clear position.

This, i feel, leads also many people to believe that Thais are emotionally somewhat shallow, while i believe that Thais are as emotional as anybody else, though emotional conditions are far more hidden, and only hinted at with utmost subtlety. Well, up to the point that they break out in one huge explosion.

Dunno if i was able to bring my point across well, it's not an easy concept to write about.

[aanon]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

a little off topic...if you can get your hands on february's ?.?? magazine, there is a pretty straight-shooting interview with ???? ????????????, retired academic, historian, founder of 'midnight university'. he dares to touch on such things as:

'let's suppose one is a royalist. is total lack of criticism of the whole institution of royalty really the best thing for it?'

also covers thaksin, violence in thai politics, the difficulties arising from His Majesty mentioning sufficiency economy and never explaining what he meant, endemic corruption and power-monging in politics etc.

all in thai, and seemingly a straight transcript of the interview, so also a good challenge in reading pretty unstructured spoken thai.

all the best.

Thank you aanon for this interesting post... Any chance that you can give us a link to ?.?? magazine or where to find it? Are there links on the web or have these been censored or suppressed???

I would like to study by reading Thai on current events...

Any recommendations for a really really good Thai-English dictionary??? I have B.P Becker's dictionary which very OK for a beginner but I need something on the "next level" and I am willing to pay to a premium for a very good resource... Does Thailand have something like the OED (Oxford English Dictionary)?

Thanks for your information and help!

Cheers!

dseawarrior

Hi there,

as for ฅ.คน the only way i know of to get it is to buy the magazine. the price in thailand is 80B. i'm lucky enough to be able to get it in sydney too. i'm not aware of the article being reproduced on the web. here's a link to the webpage of the magazine:

http://www.tvburabha.com/test/home/program_list.asp?cate=7

i'll be dictionary-shopping myself in bkk this week. others can perhaps better advise on the best choices for a thai-english dictionary in the meantime.

all the best.

[loong]

Up to you

The subtleties can be very difficult to comprehend. I avoid the phrase ตามใจ as it can be easily misused, I fear. I always think of it as "I'll indulge your wish, but I don't really agree with you" Maybe a little petulant.

แล้วแต่คุณ is much better as "I'll happily go along with your wishes"

Similarly,เงียบ as an adjective is fine, meaning peaceful, but on it's own can mean "Shut up!". So for farang learning Thai, who tend to speak Thai in single words, เงียบสงบ is maybe better.

In the OP words, I like the use of "Hint". This is so right. I have often asked, what I consider, a direct question; but have been confused with an answer that bears no relation to my query. It took me a long time to realise that the person is actually considering what I am "Hinting" at and decided that I intended to ask a different question. They have then answered the question that they thought I was "Hinting at"

[dseawarrior]

Most 'open' research and debate concerning sensitive social and societal issues is conducted in the English language, even by Thai academics.

a little off topic...if you can get your hands on february's ?.?? magazine, there is a pretty straight-shooting interview with ???? ????????????, retired academic, historian, founder of 'midnight university'. he dares to touch on such things as:

'let's suppose one is a royalist. is total lack of criticism of the whole institution of royalty really the best thing for it?'

also covers thaksin, violence in thai politics, the difficulties arising from His Majesty mentioning sufficiency economy and never explaining what he meant, endemic corruption and power-monging in politics etc.

all in thai, and seemingly a straight transcript of the interview, so also a good challenge in reading pretty unstructured spoken thai.

all the best.

Thank you aanon for this interesting post... Any chance that you can give us a link to ?.?? magazine or where to find it? Are there links on the web or have these been censored or suppressed???

I would like to study by reading Thai on current events...

Any recommendations for a really really good Thai-English dictionary??? I have B.P Becker's dictionary which very OK for a beginner but I need something on the "next level" and I am willing to pay to a premium for a very good resource... Does Thailand have something like the OED (Oxford English Dictionary)?

Thanks for your information and help!

Cheers!

dseawarrior

Hi there,

as for ?.?? the only way i know of to get it is to buy the magazine. the price in thailand is 80B. i'm lucky enough to be able to get it in sydney too. i'm not aware of the article being reproduced on the web. here's a link to the webpage of the magazine:

http://www.tvburabha.com/test/home/program_list.asp?cate=7

i'll be dictionary-shopping myself in bkk this week. others can perhaps better advise on the best choices for a thai-english dictionary in the meantime.

all the best.

Thanks for the link! Let me know if you find a good dictionary and if you recommend it...

Chok dee na krab

dseawarrior