Boeing 737 MAX jets could be grounded for weeks as black box probe to start on Ethiopia crash

[webfact]

Boeing 737 MAX jets could be grounded for weeks as black box probe to start on Ethiopia crash

By David Shepardson, Richard Lough and Aaron Maasho

 

Men unload a case containing the black boxes from the crashed Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 outside the headquarters of France's BEA air accident investigation agency in Le Bourget, north of Paris, France, March 14, 2019. REUTERS/Philippe Wojazer

 

WASHINGTON/PARIS (Reuters) - Boeing Co's 737 MAX 8 and 9 planes will be grounded for weeks if not longer until a software upgrade can be tested and installed, U.S. lawmakers said on Thursday, as officials in France prepare to begin analyzing the black boxes from a jet that crashed in Ethiopia.

 

Boeing said on Thursday it was pausing deliveries of its flagship 737 MAX aircraft following the grounding.

 

Investigators in France will be seeking clues into Sunday's deadly Ethiopian Airlines crash after take-off from Addis Ababa killed 157 people from 35 nations in the second such calamity involvingBoeing's plane since October.

 

Possible links between the accidents have rocked the aviation industry, scared passengers, and left the world's biggest planemaker scrambling to prove the safety of a money-spinning model intended to be the standard for decades.

 

U.S. Representative Rick Larsen said after a briefing with U.S. aviation officials the software upgrade would take a few weeks to complete, and installing it on all aircraft would take "at least through April." He said additional training would also have to take place.

 

Relatives of the dead stormed out of a meeting with Ethiopian Airlines on Thursday, decrying a lack of transparency, while others made the painful trip to the crash scene.

 

"I can't find you! Where are you?" said one Ethiopian woman, draped in traditional white mourning shawl, as she held a framed portrait of her brother in the charred and debris-strewn field.

 

Nations around the world, including an initially reluctant United States, have suspended the 371 MAX models in operation, though airlines are largely coping by switching planes.

 

Another nearly 5,000 MAXs are on order, meaning the financial implications are huge for the industry. Moody's rating agency said the fallout from the crash would not immediately affect Boeing's credit rating.

 

After an apparent tussle over where the investigation should be held, the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were handed over to France's Bureau of Enquiry and Analysis for Civil Aviation Safety (BEA).

 

CONNECTION TO INDONESIA CRASH?

Technical analysis would begin on Friday and the first conclusions could take several days, the BEA said, posting a picture of the partly crumpled, orange-cased box.

 

The investigation has added urgency since the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Wednesday grounded the 737 MAX aircraft, citing satellite data and evidence from the scene that indicated some similarities and "the possibility of a shared cause" with October's crash in Indonesia that killed 189 people.

 

FAA Administrator Dan Elwell told reporters on Wednesday the software update will be ready within a couple of months. Boeing declined to comment, but said Monday it would roll out the software improvement "across the 737 MAX fleet in the coming weeks."

 

Though it maintains the planes are safe, Boeing has supported the FAA move. Its stock is down about 11 percent since the crash, wiping more than $26 billion off its market value. It fell 1 percent Thursday.

 

U.S. and Canadian carriers wrestled with customer calls and flight cancellations on Thursday, and Southwest Airlines Co and American Airlines Group Inc, the largest U.S. operators of the 737 MAX, said they had started flying empty MAX aircraft to be parked elsewhere during the ban.

 

U.S. President Donald Trump, an aviation enthusiast with deep ties to Boeing, said he hoped the suspensions would be short. "It's a great company," he told reporters at the White House. "They have to figure it out fast"

 

A software fix for the 737 MAX that Boeing has been working on since the Lion Air crash in October in Indonesia will take months to complete, the FAA said on Wednesday.

 

Deliveries of Boeing's best-selling jets have been effectively frozen, though production continues.

 

And in what may presage a raft of claims, Norwegian Air has said it will seek compensation fromBoeing for costs and lost revenue after grounding its fleet of 737 MAX.

 

Japan became the latest nation to suspend the 737 MAX planes on Thursday. And airline Garuda Indonesia said there was a possibility it would cancel its 20-strong order of 737 MAXs.

 

WHAT HAPPENED?

Under international rules, Ethiopians are leading the investigation but France's BEA will conduct black box analysis as an adviser. The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) was also sending three investigators to assist.

 

Only France and the United States have the experience gleaned from being present at almost every crash involving an Airbus or Boeing respectively.

 

The cause of the Indonesian crash is still being investigated. A November preliminary report, before the retrieval of the cockpit voice recorder, focused on maintenance and training and the response of aBoeing anti-stall system to a recently replaced sensor, but gave no reason for the crash.

 

The pilot of Flight 302 had reported internal control problems and received permission to return, before the plane came down and burst into a fireball on arid farmland.

 

Relatives are desperate to know what happened and to receive fragments if not corpses, given the fire and destruction at the site. They were at least able to vent their grief.

 

"We saw where he died and touched the earth," said Sultan Al-Mutairi, who came from Riyadh to say goodbye to his brother Saad, who ran a recruitment agency in Kenya.

 

(Reporting by Richard Lough, Tim Hepher and John Irish in Paris, Duncan Miriri and Aaron Masho in Addis Ababa, Jeff Mason and David Shepardson in Washington, Omar Mohammed and Maggie Fick in Nairobi; Danilo Masoni in Milan, and Eric M. Johnson in Seattle, Tracy Rucinski in Chicago, Allison Lampert in Montreal; Writing by Andrew Cawthorne and Ben Klayman; Editing by Jon Boyle, Nick Zieminski and Grant McCool)

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-03-15

[Tug]

As long as it takes to make them safe again my deepest condolences to all affected by this tragic accident 

[car720]

I cannot speak for the heavies but when I pull back on the yoke I want the nose to go up, not down.

[ballpoint]

Boeing executives had a meeting with pilots at the Allied Pilots Association last November:

 

'After the (Lion Air) crash, Boeing issued a bulletin disclosing that this line of planes, known as the 737 Max 8, was equipped with a new type of software as part of the plane's automated functions.

Some pilots were furious that they were not told about the new software when the plane was unveiled.

Dennis Tajer, a 737 captain who attended the meeting, said that Boeing executives told the pilots, "Look, we didn't include it because we have a lot of people flying on this and we didn't want to inundate you with information."'

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/111297163/boeing-pilots-fume-at-being-left-in-the-dark-over-changes-after-lion-air-crash

 

[ravip]

In an apparent snub to the US, the black boxes from the Ethiopian Airlines crash are being sent to France instead

Ethiopia sent the black boxes from the crashed Ethiopian Airlines plane to France in what could be seen as a snub to the US >>> Full article

 

This is a very good eye opener for US and its followers. With their 'power' the destroy everything and anything thats not aligned to them. Now the world has realised and the pattern of thought has changed. Blame China, blame India... they are coming soon, for sure!

 

Edit

Pilots complained to authorities about issues >>> More

Edited March 15, 2019 by ravip

[stevenl]

30 minutes ago, ravip said:

In an apparent snub to the US, the black boxes from the Ethiopian Airlines crash are being sent to France instead

Ethiopia sent the black boxes from the crashed Ethiopian Airlines plane to France in what could be seen as a snub to the US >>> Full article

 

This is a very good eye opener for US and its followers. With their 'power' the destroy everything and anything thats not aligned to them. Now the world has realised and the pattern of thought has changed. Blame China, blame India... they are coming soon, for sure!

 

Edit

Pilots complained to authorities about issues >>> More

I don't see it as a snub.

Since the US is involved, and seemed willing to protect Boeing, it is only logical it goes elsewhere. Apparently Germany was the first choice, but that was not possible due to the type of black box used by the 737 Max.

[ravip]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

I don't see it as a snub.

Since the US is involved, and seemed willing to protect Boeing, it is only logical it goes elsewhere. Apparently Germany was the first choice, but that was not possible due to the type of black box used by the 737 Max.

Today we play with words many different games.  But the truth stands out like a sore thumb for the people who look at it with an open mind.

 

[Ulic]

All I read about the 737 Max 8 on pilot forums is the Max 8 is simply putting lipstick on a pig. An old design from the '60s with new pieces slapped on and stretched out and new avionics. Boeing taking every shortcut possible to save money and everything on the cheap. Even the MCAS system that works autonomously and has no redundancy was not properly explained/revealed so pilots didn't have to get extra training. I am thinking there will be lots of purchase cancelations and many airlines shifting bookings to the Airbus 320 NEO variant. They may get the Max8 back in the air relatively quickly but I don't think they will get the basic design problem solved, just get the pilots able to recognize the problem quickly and give them the skills to shut down the MCAS and get the plane safely back on the ground. All that said, as long as I don't have to fly on the newly developed C919 Chinese entry into the passenger plane market, I will be fine. 

[IAMHERE]

Couldn't you just fly without the anti-stall thingamabob, at least in good weather?

 

[tomacht8]

 

1 hour ago, Ulic said:

All I read about the 737 Max 8 on pilot forums is the Max 8 is simply putting lipstick on a pig. An old design from the '60s with new pieces slapped on and stretched out and new avionics. Boeing taking every shortcut possible to save money and everything on the cheap. Even the MCAS system that works autonomously and has no redundancy was not properly explained/revealed so pilots didn't have to get extra training. I am thinking there will be lots of purchase cancelations and many airlines shifting bookings to the Airbus 320 NEO variant. They may get the Max8 back in the air relatively quickly but I don't think they will get the basic design problem solved, just get the pilots able to recognize the problem quickly and give them the skills to shut down the MCAS and get the plane safely back on the ground. All that said, as long as I don't have to fly on the newly developed C919 Chinese entry into the passenger plane market, I will be fine. 

It looks like the whole flight geometry is not right anymore. Significantly larger, forward displaced engines that actually do not fit the wings. Boing therefore had to raise the entire nose landing gear by 20 cm. In the stand, the weight balance is now further ahead. In flight operations, the plane tends to rise. For this purpose, a computer-based correction system was installed on the elevator wings, which must compensate for this weak point. The Air flow conditions on the wings change as a result. When the Anti stall system responds, conflicting control commands occur. The aircraft in normal flight attitude is then forced to descend. Especially when starting with the beginning of rising and with autopilot turned on, the problems occur probably.

[Pilotman]

6 hours ago, car720 said:

I cannot speak for the heavies but when I pull back on the yoke I want the nose to go up, not down.

How very traditional. In modern aircraft, as there is no mechanical link whatsoever ever between the pilot and the control surfaces, and no manual revert , anything can happen when you pull back on the stick.    

[Pilotman]

7 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

Couldn't you just fly without the anti-stall thingamabob, at least in good weather?

 

As I understand it, the aircraft is inherently unstable in pitch and needs careful handling if the anti stall is not to kick in. I have never heard of an airliner that is designed to be inherently unstable in any axis of movement or any part of the flight envelope.  Military aircraft are so designed because they need to be highly manoeuvrable throughout the envelope, not so airliners. Maybe they have stretched the 737 to the limit of it design capability and are now reliant on a flawed system to make it flyable.  All speculation of course, but it doesn't look good for Boeing.   

[atyclb]

7 hours ago, car720 said:

I cannot speak for the heavies but when I pull back on the yoke I want the nose to go up, not down.

 

amen brother, all of us would like it to go up when pulling on it

Edited March 15, 2019 by atyclb

[MaxYakov]

Mentour Pilot offers some respite from the 737 Max Chaos (manages a little slam at Trump's {aka blabbermouth} comments on passenger jets toward the end of the video):

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by MaxYakov

[IAMHERE]

I read in a news article that there were over 41,000 flights of the airplane in America alone. Why hasn't this pitch problem been reported before? 

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, car720 said:

I cannot speak for the heavies but when I pull back on the yoke I want the nose to go up, not down.

Modern airliners don't have yokes.

 

Maybe Boeing could swallow their pride and get some help from Toulouse?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Grouse

[balo]

11 hours ago, Ulic said:

All I read about the 737 Max 8 on pilot forums is the Max 8 is simply putting lipstick on a pig. An old design from the '60s with new pieces slapped on and stretched out and new avionics.

I do not agree with this, the bigger engines are moved slightly in front of the wings, I am sure that would change the whole areodynamics of this plane . As already been explained why they need a different software. 

[ravip]

Ethiopian Airlines crash: Pilot's last message sent just before doomed flight killed 157 >>> Full article

The US president said Boeing "is an incredible company" but, for now, has notified all airlines of his decision.

^^ A very true statement in all respects.

[Basil B]

16 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

I read in a news article that there were over 41,000 flights of the airplane in America alone. Why hasn't this pitch problem been reported before? 

Seems it has...

 

A number of American pilots have stated they have experienced this problem.

 

[Tug]

The pilot was a 26 year old was he properly trained could he fly the ac without the help of the computer did he even know how to turn off the anti stall device a lot of questions also the mods moved the cog aft making the ac extremely pitch sensitive

[ravip]

16 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

I read in a news article that there were over 41,000 flights of the airplane in America alone. Why hasn't this pitch problem been reported before? 

 

12 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Seems it has...

 

A number of American pilots have stated they have experienced this problem.

 

Pilots (whatever nationality) deal with reality.

Politicians and businesses dont!

Now, many will try to blame the Pilots!

[bristolboy]

9 hours ago, balo said:

I do not agree with this, the bigger engines are moved slightly in front of the wings, I am sure that would change the whole areodynamics of this plane . As already been explained why they need a different software. 

Here's a link to an excellent article that explains clearly the problems with the 737 Max. If you don't want to read the whole thing, paragraph 8 gets to the heart of the matter:

https://slate.com/technology/2019/03/ethiopian-air-crash-where-did-boeing-go-wrong-with-the-737-max.html