Stereotyping

[qualtrough]

It never ceases to amaze me how some forum members never miss an opportunity to bash Thais on the basis of some crime story or anecdote. The latest example can be found in the thread on the murder of the two Russian women in Pattaya. Before anything other than the fact of their murder is known posters were telling us about what scum Thai men are, how cowardly they are, and even bringing up past military prowess, or lack thereof. I am willing to wager that in these posters' own countries if someone does something they don't like (cuts them off in traffic, steals their TV, and so on) their first thought is '<deleted> bastards' not '<deleted> [country of origin] bastards'. But the moment they get to Thailand they are willing to tar all Thais with the same brush on the basis of the behavior of what is still a vast minority of Thais.

In the interest of fairness now, I will present several news stories from other countries, along with the comments I would expect these posters to make if the perpetrators were Thai:

Italy-A novice teacher who allegedly used scissors to cut a chatty schoolboy's tongue in a Milan classroom is under criminal investigation, Italian news agencies said Thursday.

Comment: Unbelievable. The way Italians treat their children in deplorable. What kind of animals are they?

Australia-Man pelted with dogs, stabbed by puppy thief

Comment: All animal loving people should boycott Australia for their animal cruelty. What kind of beasts would use a puppy as a weapon? Everyone knows that Australians whould just as soon stab you as look at you!

USA-Kids beat man to brain death, police say.Nearly 20 suspected of taking part, one just 10 years old.

How low those American scum can go I just do not know. Gangs of children beating people to death. I would never visit that place. What a cowardly race...

Edited March 1, 2007 by qualtrough

[cdnvic]

It's a Thai forum so this is to be expected. If there was a forum for expats living in Italy or Australia I imagine there would be complaining about things Italians do, and how Aussies behave. In a country where the only place to vent in your own language is a forum like this you will find an inordinate amount of complaints because it's how people deal with the frustrations they encounter.

[Jet Gorgon]

CV said it all. If they vent their spleens on TV, hopefully they will be considerate and polite out in public. Hardy har har.

[ThaiGoon]

It never ceases to amaze me how some forum members never miss an opportunity to bash Thais on the basis of some crime story or anecdote. The latest example can be found in the thread on the murder of the two Russian women in Pattaya. Before anything other than the fact of their murder is known posters were telling us about what scum Thai men are, how cowardly they are, and even bringing up past military prowess, or lack thereof. I am willing to wager that in these posters' own countries if someone does something they don't like (cuts them off in traffic, steals their TV, and so on) their first thought is '<deleted> bastards' not '<deleted> [country of origin] bastards'. But the moment they get to Thailand they are willing to tar all Thais with the same brush on the basis of the behavior of what is still a vast minority of Thais.

In the interest of fairness now, I will present several news stories from other countries, along with the comments I would expect these posters to make if the perpetrators were Thai:

Italy-A novice teacher who allegedly used scissors to cut a chatty schoolboy's tongue in a Milan classroom is under criminal investigation, Italian news agencies said Thursday.

Comment: Unbelievable. The way Italians treat their children in deplorable. What kind of animals are they?

Australia-Man pelted with dogs, stabbed by puppy thief

Comment: All animal loving people should boycott Australia for their animal cruelty. What kind of beasts would use a puppy as a weapon? Everyone knows that Australians whould just as soon stab you as look at you!

USA-Kids beat man to brain death, police say.Nearly 20 suspected of taking part, one just 10 years old.

How low those American scum can go I just do not know. Gangs of children beating people to death. I would never visit that place. What a cowardly race...

Very well said qualtrough. To vent one's frustration and to stereotype an entire race/country are two completely different things....and the former is not an excuse for the latter.

[ThaiGoon]

CV said it all. If they vent their spleens on TV, hopefully they will be considerate and polite out in public. Hardy har har.

Yeah, I'm sure those KKK folks who regularly vent their frustration on their white supremacy websites are really considerate, polite and caring people in public. (Note: I'm not suggesting in anyway that anyone on TV who always tars Thais with the same bursh has the same kind of mentality as KKK people.)

[dgoz]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

[solent01]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

Good point raised, well said, also noticed Terrys oh so Thainess, but in a way he is right, you have to over look the wrong to see the right..... I don't live here because I have to, I live here because I want to, and Terry does seem to have a twinkle in his eyes about Thailand, and to be honest, so do I, hel_l it isn't perfect, but where is?

Edit @ dgoz I understand what you are saying but of all people you should understand (after travelling so much) that we are all individual, some of us thick, some of us prize winners, how can you condemn another’s views just because they have not lived in a certain country......... Maybe he can see something you are over looking, no offence meant.

Edited March 2, 2007 by solent01

[cdnvic]

CV said it all. If they vent their spleens on TV, hopefully they will be considerate and polite out in public. Hardy har har.

Yeah, I'm sure those KKK folks who regularly vent their frustration on their white supremacy websites are really considerate, polite and caring people in public. (Note: I'm not suggesting in anyway that anyone on TV who always tars Thais with the same bursh has the same kind of mentality as KKK people.)

You don't need to take every criticism of Thailand as a personal insult you know.

[damo]

Good call!

Thai's do have thir own very distinctive cultural traits, Thai's accept themselves based on thier own sence of right and wrong, foriegners judge using thier beliefs based on thier own culturural sence of right and wrong.

difference of opinion really.

Damo.

[davidjtayler]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

2 types of people indeed ... whingers/moaners or positive thinkers.

Terry is with the 'positives' and you better come up with some more accurate research dogz as Terry has lived here previously for more than enough time to qualify his opinion.

No one pretends that Thailand is Utopia (where is ?) but your own attitude will determine how you perceive the country ... you can be happy or miserable the choice is yours...

[garro]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

2 types of people indeed ... whingers/moaners or positive thinkers.

Terry is with the 'positives' and you better come up with some more accurate research dogz as Terry has lived here previously for more than enough time to qualify his opinion.

No one pretends that Thailand is Utopia (where is ?) but your own attitude will determine how you perceive the country ... you can be happy or miserable the choice is yours...

I agree with you David, I have lived here a few years now and still like the people, culture and country. Some people will never be happy anywhere.

[jbowman1993]

No one pretends that Thailand is Utopia (where is ?) but your own attitude will determine how you perceive the country ... you can be happy or miserable the choice is yours...

Truer words have never been spoken here. There are quite a bit more "Glass is half empty" people on internet forums. The "Glass is half full" people are out enjoying life

My boss at my college here at Mahidol just wrote a book, and in it, he had a great analogy. He said that in Germany, 99% of things are pretty good, but the German people are obsessed with the 1% that is bad, while in Thailand we have 1% good and the 99% bad, but Thais focus only on the good, and ignore the bad. His point was that neither philosophy is good or healthy thinking, and we should strive to overcome them, to the best of our ability. Wise man, my boss (he's Thai, btw)

[dgoz]

while in Thailand we have 1% good and the 99% bad, Wise man, my boss (he's Thai, btw)

Straight from the wise mans mouth.

1% good, 99% bad.

[Ulysses G.]

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

I've lived here for around 20 years and I agree with most of what Terry says.

He is a man of deep insight and positive thoughts. We can all learn from him.

[November Rain]

OP, sorry, maybe I'm having a dense morning, but <deleted> does your "Australian headline" actually mean? It doesn't make any sense to me (literally)! Who stabbed whom (or what) & who was throwing dogs or puppies or whatever?

On topic, I understand what you're saying, but many of those on that thread that were denegrating Thai men were also making judgements about the Russian girls. Guilty of stereotyping? Sure; racism, maybe not. Bigotry? Who knows? I also agree to a certain degree with dgoz. While we can love living here & want this place to be our home & love the people, the food & the rest, I bet every one of us, if truthful, has things about life here that irritate us. I know I do! If it's any consolation, I would moan far more about life in UK, than I do about life here!

[DrFisher]

Well, being from Philadelphia PA, USA it would be safe to say more bad stuff happens there over night than happens in Thailand in a month. In any event I have always considered myself (and always will) a guest in this country and it is in my best interest not to judge another country or culture that I can never understand fully. We all have stereotypes but in the interest of peace and harmony sometimes it's best to keep your thoughts to yourself.

[terry57]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

hello MR DOGZ,

thanks for giving me a mention, as im in the news today and up for an oscar in bedlam.

since you were kind enough to mention my name, lets have a private little chat.

i think that because i lived on koh phangan in 1988 and then koh tao in 1989, i had the best years and experiences with really genuine thai people.

that has left a long lasting impression on me.

the 7 years i was involved in the diving industry on koh tao i seen the best and the worst of thai but the good always out did the bad.

i had a thai partner who had a hit man on call and i actually met this fellow. at the end of the day the mafia did a hit on him, so i know a few things regards the thai phsycie and hence why i tell the newbies to never mess with them.

its all in the attitude and if one thinks positive one will receive, but if one thinks negative the bad will surely come.

some people hate bangkok because its too hot, polluted and noisy but i love all of that, but also love the islands, as they both have there good points.

after 20 years of travelling to thailand i cant wait to come full time but still have 3 years working in the real world. im a lucky guy as i can spend 2 months in los every 5 months but must work like mad to keep that ratio up.

also i dont need much to keep me happy, except to be around positive people.

i avoid the whingers and moners, as they are pond fodder in my opinion and never cease to amaze me why they continue to remain in the LOS.

i mean what is the point of being here if one dont like the bleeding place.

there absolutly no point to it, and the bad vibe one gives out the thais can pick up on that. as can everybody else.

i know plenty of expats who have been here long term, married to thai, run business's and are perfectly happy with there lot.

they can leave if they want but they choose the los.

but i must tell you, i dont know one person who dislikes the place. maybe thats because i refuse to hang with naysayers and run a mile if i encounter one.

thats why i got no time for the few farang that continue to slag of the thai, the country and haunt this forum with there negative views.

its bit like what monty python said mate,

" always look on the bright side of life"

and thank you very much MR DONZ.

terry

PS, MR DONZ,

i must ask you one very simple question and that is,

why are you so sure my opinion will change to the negative once i move here. ?

i expect to put all the knowledge ive gained over the last 20 years into action and avoid all the things that most people get hung up on.

ive done a very long apprenticeship my friend and have learned my trade well.

cheers

[terry57]

hey mr dgoz,

any chance of getting a new name as i keep spelling it wrongly.

dgoz, dogz and donz.

sorry about that mate.

good for a giggle i suppose.

[Furbie]

On this forum it's really the tale of two types of very different people; the ones who live/work here and know what it's actually like and the ones who have only holidayed here and think they know what it's like ("everyones smiling at me all the time,they must all be really nice").

I've been lucky enough to travel to about forty countries, some on multiple occasions, but I would never try to enforce my opinions of a country that I've only holidayed in against those opinions of someone who's actually lived/worked there.

IMO,in Thailand it is even more important to live here before you can make an informed opinion about the place/people than any other place in the world as there are so many underlying personality traits and customs that you just wont see if you're only visiting as a tourist, no matter how many times you come.

I'm looking forward to Terry57 's move to Thailand, if and when it happens. He will be a classic example. He's a defender of all things Thai, yet he's only ever been here on holidays. We'll see how his attitude changes over the years after he's lived here.

Dgoz, you've said it all. Living here and vacationing here are two totally different things. I don't care how many times you may have visited, until you've had to the crazy frustrations of living in Thailand on a yearly basis, you don't know the score.

Life back in the west had its own frustrations, but none of them prepared me for Thailand's frustrations. I have seen many people call it quits here in under a year after "vacationing and understanding" Thailand for years.

While there are many great things about Thailand, you have to be prepared for the inability of the people who should be able to assist you from actually being able to assist you – forget relying on store staff, be prepared to take a real active role in your medical needs, be prepared to push for what you want in many situations when it seems they will never give in, be prepared to be overcharged - even at restaurants (just a reminder, the very popular Sudah restaurant on Suk Soi 14 charges Westerners more than Thais), etc., etc., etc......it all sounds so easy, but it grinds you down when even the simple things aren't done right. And boy oh boy, God help you if you have to manage Thais if you have never done it before - that is a whole new frustration.

[qualtrough]

I want to make it clear that I am not a defender of all things Thai. I posted this because I think there are a lot of forum members who have such a negative view of Thailand and/or Thai people that they seize on any chance to slag them off. My point is that there are bad, rude, evil people all over the world. If you think we don't have boatloads of them back in the West you are mistaken. Does that excuse Thais who do bad things? No. But just because some Thais do doesn't mean that they all do, or even that most do.

BTW, I first came here in 1980 and have lived here 17 years since then, including the present. I don't think it is paradise, but I also don't think it is the living hel_l that a lot of forum members seem to think it is--that's all.

I think some members vision is skewed by the people they hang with the places they habituate, for example:

1. They spend most of their time in bars or nightlife areas.

2. They marry into families that are the Thai equivalent of the kind of guests you would see on the Jerry Springer show. If you have seen the show you know what I mean. And then they make broad statements on Thailand and Thais based on their unfortunate experience.

To the poster who asked about the puppies. Someone tried to steal some rare puppies last week in Oz. A witness tried to stop the car, and was stabbed and seriously hurt. To add insult to injury, he was also pelted with the puppies. I will never visit that country, those evil B@#%%$ds!

[kmart]

Thailand can be frustrating at times. I still have big problems with road manners and driving here, btw. However, most expats would tell you that working with the Thais can be very rewarding and that the large majority are hard-working, honest, and responsible people. Getting to know the language is a must if you are to be staying here a long time. As is knowing local customs and traits.

Working with Thais is, imho; a whole lot less frustrating than working with most other nationalities around this region, or even most places in the world. If you can lead by example and be patient / well-mannered, your Thai staff will always go the extra yard in return.

Actually living here can be a major source of frustration for expats and retirees alike; but you have to keep some perspective and your temper alike. At the same time never put up with shoddy service or being conned; just try to do it in a calm manner.

[cdnvic]

Thailand can be frustrating at times. I still have big problems with road manners and driving here, btw. However, most expats would tell you that working with the Thais can be very rewarding and that the large majority are hard-working, honest, and responsible people. Getting to know the language is a must if you are to be staying here a long time. As is knowing local customs and traits.

Working with Thais is, imho; a whole lot less frustrating than working with most other nationalities around this region, or even most places in the world. If you can lead by example and be patient / well-mannered, your Thai staff will always go the extra yard in return.

Actually living here can be a major source of frustration for expats and retirees alike; but you have to keep some perspective and your temper alike. At the same time never put up with shoddy service or being conned; just try to do it in a calm manner.

A sensible balance between the frustration posts and the "like it or leave it" posts.

[terry57]

i feel that if one spends the time to learn a few things before comming here ones chances of success are much better.

the main things would be,

1, = be financial and spread a bit around.

2, = learn the language and understand the culture.

3, = maintain an interest outside the bar scene.

4, = associate with like minded positive people.

5, = leave your farang mind at home and learn to think like a thai.

6, = expect the unexpected.

7, = be generous and friendly to the thai people, as it comes back to you ten fold.

8, = never kick soi dogs. ( dave understands that one )

9, = get to know DAVID J TAYLER , his special girlfriends and rambuttri street.

and if you do these few simple things you will have a fantastic life in the mighty los.

thank you very much.

terry, reverand terence or whatever.

[terry57]

oh yes, i have another few top tips for all thai goers,

as long as you have a hole in your ar-se you will always be looked apon as a farang, so accept that one, as thats the way it is punters.

dont bother buying anything, but just rent a top condo and save yourself any grief over worring about whether los will go tits up.

so many people get hung up on this subject.

its not very hard to enjoy the los if one thinks about things a bit.

[qwertz]

oh yes, i have another few top tips for all thai goers,

as long as you have a hole in your ar-se you will always be looked apon as a farang, so accept that one, as thats the way it is punters.

dont bother buying anything, but just rent a top condo and save yourself any grief over worring about whether los will go tits up.

so many people get hung up on this subject.

its not very hard to enjoy the los if one thinks about things a bit.

Terry, your advice is good wherever you go, no point agonising about if you're liked or accepted by the locals. You're a fact, they're a fact and you have to learn to live with the things you can't change. We tend to forget that we have a choice, unlike millions of poor buggers in the world. I've been an expat now for more than half of my long life in several lands including LOS once. It can be a as lonely a life as you want to make it. That's why many expats tend to congregate and form enclaves, often in a chosen bar like MTB or Oz bars in Phuket or the Shamrock in Patt: I know, I've done it too, but that won't teach you much about local customs and culture. I learned by trial and error that there's a very short list of basic tenets, all questions, as follows:

1. Do I have a good reason.

2. What can I offer this host land.

3. What can it offer me.

4. Can I learn to accept the ways of the locals.

5. Can I integrate.

Once I learned, most of my immediate settling in problems dissolved. But you're right, you'll always be a farang or an immigrant and painted with the same broad brush along with the scrotes and the gentlemen when there's any dispute with locals and they'll always have the advantage simply because it's their turf, not yours. It looks like I'll soon be working in China, if I wish to, so I may have to add a couple more tenets to that list.

An LOS lover.

[kayo]

I was going to comment on this topic, but then thought my response might come across as somewhat stereotypical and therefore decided to go see what this mysterious accident on Sukhumvit is all about.

Edited March 2, 2007 by kayo

[britmaveric]

If the shoe fits then wear it!!!

[Richb2004v2]

Why don't we open a forum purely for those who need to get a good moan of their chests. There are many that do, me included. However there are those that do not wish to hear others put down any aspect of Thailand. With a specific Thai related moan forum the two need not come into contact.

What do you think?

[dgoz]

why are you so sure my opinion will change to the negative once i move here. ?

I'm not sure your attitude will change. You might be one of the minority that can still enjoy living here as much as they did holidaying here. I hope so, for your sake. Best of luck.

My first year living in LOS was spent in BKK. I loved it. I had plenty of money and spent most of my time partying and playing nud_e leap-frog with the local girls. But it soon got a bit boring (as it will for anyone) so I started a small business for an interest and that's gave me a whole new insight into the Thai mentality.

When you've had enough of doing nothing and decide on a small biz/hobby then you'll see Thailand and the Thais in reality. Your competitors will be jealous and envious and try devious tricks and underhanded tactics to destroy you, your lazy and often disappearing staff will not be happy about accepting orders from "a Falang" (no matter how charming you are when making your simple requests), your suppliers will constantly let you down, your customer base will be fickle and disloyal, the BiB will want their ever-increasing tea money, the phone service and internet are from the last century, so forget about simple things such as online banking (took me 3 hours yesterday to pay a bill, should have been 3 minutes) the double pricing will eventually wear you down because you know you can't do it yourself........................... and on it goes.

Good luck mate.

I'm out of here soon, and will only be a holidayer again in the future, and wouldn't even bother if my gf wasn't here.

PS, Thailand is not the same now as KoPangyang was 20 years ago.

[grtaylor]

Life back in the west had its own frustrations, but none of them prepared me for Thailand's frustrations. I have seen many people call it quits here in under a year after "vacationing and understanding" Thailand for years.

Interesting comment - I had an Aussie friend who worked here for around 15 years with a multi-national company, as a factory manager, and then he was sent to work for the same company in Goa. He was back here on holiday after a year, and he said to me "Nothing in all my years in Thailand prepared me for the frustrations of working in India".

I guess all things are relative . . . . .

G