Life On The Burma-thai Border

[LaoPo]

Life on the Burma-Thai border

In the first of a series of articles from the Thai-Burma border, the BBC's Kate McGeown looks at the thousands of political and economic migrants who flee Burma for Thailand every year

Fleeing for their lives

Burma is ruled by a repressive military junta, which is showing little desire to improve the rights and living conditions of its poverty-stricken people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6397243.stm

Saw Tuntin, 81, Umpium camp

I helped the British fight the Japanese, and then straight after that I joined the Karen rebel army ( KNLA). I was a fighter until I was nearly 70, and then I came to live in this camp.

I want to go back to Burma during my lifetime, but my hope is getting less and less. A lot of my friends are buried on the hill near this camp.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

The fighting spirit of Burma's Karen

In the second of a series of articles from the Thai-Burma border, the BBC's Kate McGeown looks at the small rebel army that has spent nearly 60 years fighting the Burmese government.

By the end of last year, an estimated 500,000 people were internally displaced in Burma, according to the Thai Burma Border Consortium, and thousands more fled to Thailand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6407305.stm

Well...who cares?

LaoPo

[Florin]

Don't like the style of the articles, it's all one-sided journalism...everywhere in the world there are a bunch of people who want their independent this and autonomous that, with NO clue what to do with it afterwards. Or it would probably be like in areas of the former USSR, where the "freedom fighters" just want enough autonomy to smuggle God knows what across their borders.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...while the Burmese government is certainly guilty of human rights abuses, it is not the monstrous genocidal regime some portray it to be and I doubt those villagers would truly be worse off if an agreement would be reached. Another piece of oh-so-informative fluff from Ms. Kate.

[Florin]

Can't wait for an inevitable series of articles on the fight for freedom in Thailand's South...what exactly do they even want, a new republic whose industry would consist of a couple of factories and resorts, or union with their brothers from across the border? (who probably need them as much as a dog needs fleas...)

[Johpa]

Don't like the style of the articles, it's all one-sided journalism...everywhere in the world there are a bunch of people who want their independent this and autonomous that, with NO clue what to do with it afterwards. Or it would probably be like in areas of the former USSR, where the "freedom fighters" just want enough autonomy to smuggle God knows what across their borders.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...while the Burmese government is certainly guilty of human rights abuses, it is not the monstrous genocidal regime some portray it to be and I doubt those villagers would truly be worse off if an agreement would be reached. Another piece of oh-so-informative fluff from Ms. Kate.

It is your choice, perhaps maybe not even a choice in your singular situation (in which case I suggest intense counseling), to have no sympathy for these or any other peoples. But, and ignoring your inability to communicate your thoughts in English effectively, are you suggesting that people who are being subjected to forced labor, forced relocation, torture, rape, and pillaging as well off as they can expect to ever become?

[Rinrada]

it a quiet sunday night and just got back from the Pub....so a bit.....thoughtful..

Why do I have to fight???

(By Daw Aung San Suu Kyi)

They killed my father a year ago,

And they burnt my hut after that

I asked the city men "why me?" they ignored

"I don't know, mind your business," the men said.

One day from elementary school I came home,

Saw my sister was lifeless, lying in blood.

I looked around to ask what happened, if somebody'd known,

Found no one but living room as a flood.

Running away by myself on the village road,

Not knowing where to go but heading for my teacher

Realizing she's the only one who could help to clear my throat,

But this time she gave up, telling me strange things in fear.

Why, teacher, why.. why.. why?

I have no dad nor a sister left.

To teach me and to care for me you said, was that a lie?

This time with tearful eyes she, again, said...

"Be a grown one, young man,

Can't you see we all are dying?

And stop this with your might as soon as you can,

For we all are suffering."

(Daw Aung San Suu Kyi)

[Florin]

It is your choice, perhaps maybe not even a choice in your singular situation (in which case I suggest intense counseling), to have no sympathy for these or any other peoples. But, and ignoring your inability to communicate your thoughts in English effectively, are you suggesting that people who are being subjected to forced labor, forced relocation, torture, rape, and pillaging as well off as they can expect to ever become?

Didn't many cases in South/Central America teach people that these so-called people's liberation armies are most of the time just a bunch of thugs who in no way can provide a better life for their people? Or look at the West Bank, after the "opressive Zionists" pulled out, did the violence precisely there stop? Did the economy improve? Did people's lives really improve at all?

Yes, forced labor, relocation, torture, rape, all these are horrible things to live through, but a "people's army" is not the way to a better life! It can't be compared to cases like China in Mao's time or Castro's revolution, because these particular people don't have vision...Aung San Suu Kyi does have that vision, but even if she weren't locked up, I doubt the army the article mentions could help her out.

There are few cases in history where revolutionary spirit was matched with a real vision, compared to the constant flurry of unrest created by trouble-makers...take Russia as an example: Lenin's revolutionary activities had vision, while the anarchist attempts of the 19th century there brought nothing but violence and misery.

[0Mix1up]

A little ot

I recently met some one who on her first trip anywhere os, ended up somewhere around Mai Sot and wanted to go into Myanmar, she was allowed only after handing over her passport to boarder guards, oh and she had no visa.

I cannot believe she did this!!!!!

Massively stupid IMO

And guess where shes heading next? Egypt.

[LaoPo]

Florin, reading your comments, at first I didn't know what to say, but you seem a bitter man.

Fighting for freedom, liberty and a better life doesn't help, in your view. Than you come up with completely different stories in other countries which are completely off-topic.

Writing in your -hopefully- comfortable home behind a computer and telling here: "I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people..." sounds bitter to me.....

The people, the BBC-articles are about, don't have comfortable homes or computers; they're afraid, scared and fleeing for their freedom, fleeing from repression in a country, dominated by military selfish generals.

We live in a free world. When you read this you are able to make phonecalls, book a ticket to another country; open your fridge to have a drink, join your family and go to a restaurant, go to a bar, you have -hopefully- some money to spend....should I continue ?

I am grateful to be able to live in a free world.

They can't.

LaoPo

[Florin]

Sorry, I guess I created a bit of a misunderstanding, when I said "I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...", I meant the army mentioned in the article, not the actual villagers.

I don't feel the other examples as being off-topic, to me they're relevant in presenting fights for freedom WITH a vision, as opposed to disorganized militaristic crap like the army in the article. I think that there is a clear difference between, for example, Russia or China's fight for freedom from a weak, corrupt monarchy, as opposed to Afghanistan or indeed Burma, which aim to replace the repressive central government with...what? Without a very clear plan of what they will do AFTER their fight is over, they can never provide a better solution...look at Iraq - repression was replaced by anarchy and chaos. I don't know about you, but I prefer repression if that is the alternative.

[LaoPo]

...look at Iraq - repression was replaced by anarchy and chaos.

I don't know about you, but I prefer repression if that is the alternative.

I prefer neither and the people living in such countries either...

LaoPo

[jasreeve17]

Sorry, I guess I created a bit of a misunderstanding, when I said "I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...", I meant the army mentioned in the article, not the actual villagers.

I don't feel the other examples as being off-topic, to me they're relevant in presenting fights for freedom WITH a vision, as opposed to disorganized militaristic crap like the army in the article. I think that there is a clear difference between, for example, Russia or China's fight for freedom from a weak, corrupt monarchy, as opposed to Afghanistan or indeed Burma, which aim to replace the repressive central government with...what? Without a very clear plan of what they will do AFTER their fight is over, they can never provide a better solution...look at Iraq - repression was replaced by anarchy and chaos. I don't know about you, but I prefer repression if that is the alternative.

You come accross a bit too strongly. I suspect (hope) it's just a case of the writting not clearly transfering your feelings. Though, you do seem to have made many Marxist comments. As we know, Marxism is not known for it's kind and humane ideas...(you stated Russia and China as examples, of what? I'd suggest examples of mass murder and social destruction, in the name of an ideology.)

Your last sentence "I prefer repression if that's the alternative." Repression in Myanmar is not a nice thing. It's not just; not being able to vote and no luxury items. The reality of repression in Myanmar, as stated above, is; death, torture, rape, social and ideological destruction, forced labour..."

Your political views are yours and you're entitled to them, but please feel some compassion for people who are not in a position to have a similar conversation in their own country, without being hunted down, tortured and then mudered.

Edited March 5, 2007 by jasreeve17

[Florin]

Hey, I'm not a Marxist...like all ideologies, it has its fair share of problems, I was simply giving examples of cases where a people's revolution created a stronger country & population...with great sacrifices, yes, but it did.

Sorry if I came across a bit strongly with my opinion, but I really dislike this kind of journalism, where only one point of view is presented...while the plight of the people is indeed awful, how is that army supposed to solve their problems?? How is this different from so many other cases in Africa or South America, where clashes between local warlords have brought about only misery? Are you saying that the leaders of the army are 100% peace-loving individuals who ONLY fight for their people's freedom, with NO personal gain whatsoever?

I really don't think the answer to lack of freedom of speech is propaganda by the opposing side...if we were to fully believe such cases the way reporters like this present them, you'd think Romania is overrun with mud, gypsies and drugged-up street children, Russia is a war zone and England is a bastion of freedom...well, we've got roads in Romania, I was able to walk around Moscow without getting shot, poisoned or blown up and I reckon there are quite a few CCTV cameras watching out for precious 'citizen's freedom' in London.

[Johpa]

Sorry, I guess I created a bit of a misunderstanding, when I said "I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...", I meant the army mentioned in the article, not the actual villagers.

I don't feel the other examples as being off-topic, to me they're relevant in presenting fights for freedom WITH a vision, as opposed to disorganized militaristic crap like the army in the article. I think that there is a clear difference between, for example, Russia or China's fight for freedom from a weak, corrupt monarchy, as opposed to Afghanistan or indeed Burma, which aim to replace the repressive central government with...what? Without a very clear plan of what they will do AFTER their fight is over, they can never provide a better solution...look at Iraq - repression was replaced by anarchy and chaos. I don't know about you, but I prefer repression if that is the alternative.

Members of the KNLA would probably take your comments describing them as a liberation style army as a compliment. But the reality is that the KNLA is a small rag tag group that at best provides minimal defense to the few larger camps along the border which house the limited medical facilities open to the refugees. The KNLA has never come out openly for independence from Burma, it has never waged an offensive campaign against the Burmese, and many of its active political sympathisers work closely with other local anti-government, pro-democracy groups that understand that Burma is a vast collection of ethnic groups that can work together. You really need to read up more on Burma and the various groups united behind Aung San Suu Kyi.

As for your last incredulous statement, well, alas, there are far too many like minded people born on the planet who prefer repression and no liberty to even the vaguest hint of instability. You really would be happier moving to Turkmenistan. [unnecessary ending removed. Please restrain yourself from making such comments. /Meadish]

Edited March 9, 2007 by meadish_sweetball

[Florin]

Members of the KNLA would probably take your comments describing them as a liberation style army as a compliment. But the reality is that the KNLA is a small rag tag group that at best provides minimal defense to the few larger camps along the border which house the limited medical facilities open to the refugees. The KNLA has never come out openly for independence from Burma, it has never waged an offensive campaign against the Burmese, and many of its active political sympathisers work closely with other local anti-government, pro-democracy groups that understand that Burma is a vast collection of ethnic groups that can work together. You really need to read up more on Burma and the various groups united behind Aung San Suu Kyi.

OK, so please enlighten me as to what Kawthoolei is...also, according to the KNLA's website:

The Karen National Liberation Army (KNLA) is the military branch of the Karen National Union (KNU). Since shortly after Myanmar's independence in 1949, the KNLA emerged to fight for the independence of the Karen state in eastern Myanmar.

So I guess you have a better idea than them as to what it is that they want? Also, according to Wikipedia (I know, not a reliable source of info, but I reckon neither is Ms. Kate):

Early in the fighting, Karen forces overran much of Northern Burma including towns such as Mandalay and established strong positions outside Rangoon at Insein. But lacking a port from which to receive military supplies, the Karen forces gradually withdrew to the southeast of Burma.

As for your last incredulous statement, well, alas, there are far too many like minded people born on the planet who prefer repression and no liberty to even the vaguest hint of instability. You really would be happier moving to Turkmenistan. Sieg Heil!

Neah, Turkmenistan is a bit isolated for my taste...I guess I'm just the type of person who cares more about getting to ze workplace in the morning than the political demonstration du jour (and its always fun effects on traffic here before Thaksin was finally kicked out). Whatever floats your boat, though...

[LaoPo]

Please, read this, from the second article.

A comment:

" I used to visit Mae Sot and Mae La camp quite often as a volunteer working in Bangkok. The situation for the political refugees and economic migrants is horrific. After they are caught by the Thai authorities they are often made to wait for days without food and water before deported to Burma. Those deported back to Burma through the Three Pagodas Pass area are subject to more danger, as it is less populated than Mae Sot. I've seen harassment of Karen refugees by Thai police and military not only in the border regions but also in Bangkok, where many Karen come while being processed to a third country. They are subject to searches and bribes when found out by the police. These Karen often hold official UN refugee status identification. "

ps: I left the name out, but you can read more comments here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6407305.stm

LaoPo

[Johpa]

OK, so please enlighten me as to what Kawthoolei is...also, according to the KNLA's website:

The Karen National Liberation Army (KNLA) is the military branch of the Karen National Union (KNU). Since shortly after Myanmar's independence in 1949, the KNLA emerged to fight for the independence of the Karen state in eastern Myanmar.

So I guess you have a better idea than them as to what it is that they want? Also, according to Wikipedia (I know, not a reliable source of info, but I reckon neither is Ms. Kate):

Early in the fighting, Karen forces overran much of Northern Burma including towns such as Mandalay and established strong positions outside Rangoon at Insein. But lacking a port from which to receive military supplies, the Karen forces gradually withdrew to the southeast of Burma.

Actually, I have some connections that are rather close to the KNU leadership, and despite what you might be reading, the realistic political objectives of the KNU are not full independence, although here and there one will see such bold propaganda statements. Kawthoolei is a recent name of the region that is primarily Karen and the Kawthoolei State should be seen in the same light as the Shan State, the Chin State, etc. It is an easy way to divide areas of a country that are composed of large minority groups with the dominant group compromising about 60% of the total population.

As for your other reading, I have never heard of Karen forces overrunning northern Burma, where per chance there are no Karen, nor do I see any references to Karen military activities in either of the two Wikipedia aticles linked to in your post. But you are almost correct that back around 1948, an early iteration of Karen forces did briefly take control of the prison town of Insein after initial pledges of autonomy to the Karen and other minority groups turned out to be lies. I believe that is the last time Karen forces occupuied a town.

[Tyree D.]

I think I understand the points that are trying to be made. Let's listen to the side of the junta. We need a better understanding of why they are so oppressive. If we heard what they have to say, we would probably agree.

[LaoPo]

Saving lives on the Burmese border

In the third of a series of articles from the Thai-Burma border, the BBC's Kate McGeown looks at the medical teams who do their best to help Burmese civilians in the region - sometimes risking their lives in the process.

" I spent my first 12 in Karen State, and then nine years in a Karen refugee camp in Thailand. I came to Canada through World University Services of Canada Refugee Sponsorship Programme three years ago. After reading this article, I feel that I have a great responsibility to carry on the struggle for the Karen who have been suffering human right abuses for more than five decades. I personally think that the British bear a great responsibility for the Karen people. The Karen people were loyal to the British during Second World War and now they are forgotten by their allies. They are just fighting for justice. I really hope that the international community is aware of the plight of Karen people and their struggle. XXXXXXX, Canada "

One of the the comments on this third article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6418645.stm

LaoPo

[ColPyat]

[

Actually, I have some connections that are rather close to the KNU leadership, and despite what you might be reading, the realistic political objectives of the KNU are not full independence, although here and there one will see such bold propaganda statements.

I guess then you know that nothing in Burma is easy and simple, and as it is made out to be.

The KNU is not a shining bright light there. They have committed many gross human rights abuses, they also use forced labor, such as conscripting people from the camps as porters for ammunition to the front lines (at least in the times they were still controlling large areas in Karen state), they have executed POW's in rather gruesome fashion. The Christian leadership of the KNU has oppressed the Buddhist Karen, which has was part reason for the split, and the resulting loss of Mannerplaw.

Many battles on the border are not about freedom and democracy, but about control of the saw mills at the border. The KNU has done some incredible damage to the environment by massive deforestation, and by far not all money earned went into the fight, but ended in personal bank accounts of Bo Mya and the rest of the leadership.

The KNLA uses child soldiers in their combat units, some as young as 8 years old. Visiting their hospitals, where KNLA child soldiers lie with gruesome injuries, including amputations, is sobering.

It is often very difficult to confirm any of their claims, as they are as liberal with the truth as any other side in Burma.

I don't want to be mistaken here as pro junta, which i am not, their miserable human rights record stands. But that does not mean that groups such as the KNU and the many other ethnic minority groups are to be idealized.

They are increasingly part of the problem, and not solution. They pay public lip service to the idea of federalism in Burma, but when you speak in private with the leadership, their ideas are clearly independence. Which is illusionary.

What i am trying to say here is, that the problems in Burma are very complex, and seemingly easy solutions as so often proposed are maybe idealistic, but will because of neglect of uncomfortable realities never be feasible, and most likely would lead to the opposite - renewed fighting. Just because the junta is horrible, does not mean that their enemies are much better.

[sceadugenga]

It seems that most of Burma is in chaos, the Shan people also fight for a free state and the Wa, the enemies of their blood, have joined the Burmese army in their war against them.

Historically these people were mainly subsistence farmers who grew opium as a cash crop and while they were loosely held together by the British Empire it all went tits up when the Brits pulled out.

The trouble is that anyone who can afford to equip a modern army in these sort of countries will make a bid to take over and they insist that the lines on the map that some guy drew in London or Paris two hundred years ago should still matter.

[ColPyat]

It seems that most of Burma is in chaos, the Shan people also fight for a free state and the Wa, the enemies of their blood, have joined the Burmese army in their war against them.

Historically these people were mainly subsistence farmers who grew opium as a cash crop and while they were loosely held together by the British Empire it all went tits up when the Brits pulled out.

The trouble is that anyone who can afford to equip a modern army in these sort of countries will make a bid to take over and they insist that the lines on the map that some guy drew in London or Paris two hundred years ago should still matter.

Actually, the majority Shan (Thai Yai) have made peace with Burma, and only the minority Shan State Army are still fighting. The Wa are only the dominant group of Wa State, their leadership is mostly Chinese, but comprises many ethnic groups, such as Shan as well. There are even former Red Guards who have stayed on after the Wa split from the Communist Party of Burma, whose army they were.

In fact, Wa State has a huge assortment of ethnic groups scattered in mostly small villages and a few towns. Wa state is only nominally part of Burma, in reality it is almost independent, and mostly relies on Chinese investment. Geographically it is very difficult to reach from Burma, but is just a small trip over the river from Yunnan.

Wa State is almost feudal, with local strongmen ruling their fiefdoms with almost absolute power. Very fascinating place. I had a few years ago the opportunity to tour Wa State.

[deminister]

[Flame removed.] To get things straight: 1. the karen and the Tai Yai (Shan) were the only peoples in South East Asia fighting the Japanese, the Burmans were kissing ass. Secondly the British signed an agreement with these people that they got their own land back. [Flame removed] Burma is a Pariah state, human rights abuses are well documented. Rape is institutionlized and it is not uncommon that livestock and rice are destroyed just to ignore them food. [Flame removed] Maybe you do not believe the UK and American governments figures which were used in the UN security council when it comes to these abuses. And maybe you simply have no idea what you are talking about. [Flame removed]

A warning has been issued for this post. Please respect other posters even when you disagree with them! /Meadish

[deminister]

Can't wait for an inevitable series of articles on the fight for freedom in Thailand's South...what exactly do they even want, a new republic whose industry would consist of a couple of factories and resorts, or union with their brothers from across the border? (who probably need them as much as a dog needs fleas...)

First of all the Thai South is indeed annexed by Thailand, it wouldd hav ebeen far more logical that these old sultanates should have gone to Malaysia. But that is not the point. The Karen and Tai Yai from whom certain people here think wrongly that the majority have made peace with the Burmese government, are banned from Government jobs, their land is confiscated and given to the Waa and other pro government minorities who are allowed to produce drugs in order to prop-up the government coffers. The Thai army is not raping children (unless Sonthi has given new orders recently). The Thai army is not using slave labor, the Thai army is not selling people. The Thai army does a lot of things wrong but not even remotely comparable with the Burmese army. The Thai government is spending a bit more thna 1 dollar per person per year on healthcare and education. Going short your remarks are off target and show how ignorant you really are. The karen and the Tai Yai are most probably the West's only real allies. I do not see how Bush would meet a terrorist leader, he is meeting however with Tai Yai and Karen ladies fighting the regime. Maybe you should try to collect some more eveidence before you open your mouth. I have lived and worked in ShanState for quite a few years, I have seen the prisons from the inside and so the hospitals. I have been with child soldiers and (sex) slaves (oops you might be a friend of Shinzo Abe, he is also denying that it happened it was all voluntary). [flames reomoved, member warned]

[Johpa]

[

Actually, I have some connections that are rather close to the KNU leadership, and despite what you might be reading, the realistic political objectives of the KNU are not full independence, although here and there one will see such bold propaganda statements.

I guess then you know that nothing in Burma is easy and simple, and as it is made out to be.

The KNU is not a shining bright light there. They have committed many gross human rights abuses, they also use forced labor, such as conscripting people from the camps as porters for ammunition to the front lines (at least in the times they were still controlling large areas in Karen state), they have executed POW's in rather gruesome fashion. The Christian leadership of the KNU has oppressed the Buddhist Karen, which has was part reason for the split, and the resulting loss of Mannerplaw.

Many battles on the border are not about freedom and democracy, but about control of the saw mills at the border. The KNU has done some incredible damage to the environment by massive deforestation, and by far not all money earned went into the fight, but ended in personal bank accounts of Bo Mya and the rest of the leadership.

The KNLA uses child soldiers in their combat units, some as young as 8 years old. Visiting their hospitals, where KNLA child soldiers lie with gruesome injuries, including amputations, is sobering.

It is often very difficult to confirm any of their claims, as they are as liberal with the truth as any other side in Burma.

I don't want to be mistaken here as pro junta, which i am not, their miserable human rights record stands. But that does not mean that groups such as the KNU and the many other ethnic minority groups are to be idealized.

They are increasingly part of the problem, and not solution. They pay public lip service to the idea of federalism in Burma, but when you speak in private with the leadership, their ideas are clearly independence. Which is illusionary.

What i am trying to say here is, that the problems in Burma are very complex, and seemingly easy solutions as so often proposed are maybe idealistic, but will because of neglect of uncomfortable realities never be feasible, and most likely would lead to the opposite - renewed fighting. Just because the junta is horrible, does not mean that their enemies are much better.

There is a lengthy list of documented "gross human rights abuses" over the decades by the ruling Burmese junta. I have not seen anything similar for the Karen leadership. I would not disagree that there are flaws within the leadership of the KNU and other groups. Clearly there are internal politics involved regarding control of the few commercial enterprises, whether they be mills or meth labs further north. And no doubt the late Bo Mya pocketed some cash for his homes outside the border areas. But for every Bo Mya, who was an angel by SPDC standards, there is a Ka Hsaw Wa.

Despite occasional lapses in judgement (and I have not seen or heard of any forced conscription by the KNU, nor seen any evidence that there is enough ammo to need porters, or that fornt lines even exist in the traditional sense) to equate minority group leaderships to the Burmese regime is way out of kilter. My contacts are primarily with the ex-patriated leadership in the west who represent both Burmese and minorities in opposition to SPDC. These groups work together and see some sort of Federalism as the correct solution.

As for the most recent reports from the camps that I have heard, the health situation has actually gone downhill as some of those trained as medics, and who worked as backpack medics, have received asylum and have relocated to other countries such as Canada and have not been replaced.

[ColPyat]

There is a lengthy list of documented "gross human rights abuses" over the decades by the ruling Burmese junta.

As i have posted already, i don't excuse any of the miserable conduct of the Burmese junta.

My information is a bit dated, it comes from the time before the fall of Mannerplaw, when the KNU still held considerable territory inside Burma. I have been in Mannerplaw, seen the idiotic circus there, and i have been at several front line positions, and in many camps. I the last decade though i haven't bothered much anymore, because i got tired by the purposely spread lies and misinformation, and the ridiculous infighting between the different groups. The war in Burma is a war like many others that should have been over a long time ago.

My compassion lies with the villagers and the normal folks, not though with the KNU leadership (mostly Christian fundamentalist). Sorry, but IMHO the Wa, majority Shan and the many other ethnic minorities have done the right thing - they have made peace in a position of strength, and the average people there don't need to flee to Thailand ever year during the dry season offensive. The situation is far from ideal there, but it's better than during the wars.

Maybe you should travel around in those areas to get a different perspective.

I don't support rag tag guerrilla armies who are very much part of prolonging these wars, and who have missed the point of making peace, and in the course of time increasingly lose their purpose, and turn nearly as harmful to their own people as the enemy they fight against.

[ColPyat]

[Flame removed.] To get things straight: 1. the karen and the Tai Yai (Shan) were the only peoples in South East Asia fighting the Japanese, the Burmans were kissing ass. Secondly the British signed an agreement with these people that they got their own land back. [Flame removed] Burma is a Pariah state, human rights abuses are well documented. Rape is institutionlized and it is not uncommon that livestock and rice are destroyed just to ignore them food. [Flame removed] Maybe you do not believe the UK and American governments figures which were used in the UN security council when it comes to these abuses. And maybe you simply have no idea what you are talking about. [Flame removed]

And i think you have difficulties reading my posts. You are out of order, and sound like one of those armchair warriors who get their information by reading newspaper reports and have never in person went to the places and tried to personally confirm their validity.

No, i am not "making money" from the Junta, but my many travels in the affected areas, including getting views from both sides have taught me that things in Burma are hardly as simple as you believe they are.

It may be PC to hate the junta, and love their enemies, but i find that very unrealistic. Yes, the junta is very bad, that though does not make rag tag guerrilla armies fighting against the junta "good".

And no, i am not "the kind of man who love to frequent prostitutes in the brothels were the daughters of minorities are traded". This is highly insulting and i do expect an apology for this.

[jayjayjayjay]

[Flame removed.] To get things straight: 1. the karen and the Tai Yai (Shan) were the only peoples in South East Asia fighting the Japanese, the Burmans were kissing ass. Secondly the British signed an agreement with these people that they got their own land back. [Flame removed] Burma is a Pariah state, human rights abuses are well documented. Rape is institutionlized and it is not uncommon that livestock and rice are destroyed just to ignore them food. [Flame removed] Maybe you do not believe the UK and American governments figures which were used in the UN security council when it comes to these abuses. And maybe you simply have no idea what you are talking about. [Flame removed]

Over the top... tell us how you are working to overcome the problems in Burma.. Constructive pls. How can others really help........

[jayjayjayjay]

I think I understand the points that are trying to be made. Let's listen to the side of the junta. We need a better understanding of why they are so oppressive. If we heard what they have to say, we would probably agree.

Remove the Junta and......... do we get Iraq??

[wrecker]

Don't like the style of the articles, it's all one-sided journalism...everywhere in the world there are a bunch of people who want their independent this and autonomous that, with NO clue what to do with it afterwards. Or it would probably be like in areas of the former USSR, where the "freedom fighters" just want enough autonomy to smuggle God knows what across their borders.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for these people...while the Burmese government is certainly guilty of human rights abuses, it is not the monstrous genocidal regime some portray it to be and I doubt those villagers would truly be worse off if an agreement would be reached. Another piece of oh-so-informative fluff from Ms. Kate.

You might have made a fine Burmese government soldier, a German or a japanese WWII soldier or a Khmer Ruge Soldier. If I follow your thoughts, people should not rise against oppressors. The jews should simply have agreed to the German holocaust, the people in Darfur to the rape of the Janjaweed, the Baltic states should have remain in Russia, just because they were occupied and as thus should have kissed up with the Russians, the people from Cambodia should have agree dto the killingfields and it was fine to kill them all. Why? Well an agreement could have been reached and the villagers would not have beeen worse off agreeing to the governments will of destroying them. You are right dead is dead, so it is all the same it is for beter or worse. It shows however in my opinion either your ignorance, lack of understanding or what I suspect your real character.

I find your remarks shameless. Maybe we should allow Darfur to happen to. after all those stupid women and children should simply agree to what the government wants from them, in this case their lives and bodies.

The Tai Yai and the Karen do have the right on an own land it is written down in a charter by the British in 1948. I truly feel that you are off the mark. The problem are not the villagers they simply want to be left alone. Regimes that build new Capitals while spending less on healthcare and education than the poorest African Nation are great governments to negotiate with. My question to you is, if you are an Indian perhaps, who loves to do business with this bloody regime, a Chinese who needs the trees and the gas and who does not give about human rights? Are you a paid lobbyist for the bloodthirsty backward government of Burma, or do you simply show your lack of manners by talking right what is really wrong.

Try to read the report "License to rape" it may change your mind. It could have been your wife or daughter too.