Thai attitudes to very poor people

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Maybe they felt it reflected badly on the OP giving away such a rusty old samlor, and were embarrassed on his behalf.

 

Maybe now one of them is having to help the old fella get the samlor to the scrap dealer.

 

Who knows?

Maybe I could ask my wife.  Maybe the OP could do the same.  His wife, not mine.

 

I reckon Thais must be reasonably generous to very poor people, since there seems to be money to be made from begging and selling stuff at traffic light intersections.

 

SC

 

 

I give up - you're quite welcome to think I'm 'publicity hungry' ????.

 

Feel free to re-direct the thread to your preferred option.

[Farangwithaplan]

Ah that old chestnut. "Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes."

 

That way, when you do judge them you will be a mile away. And you will have their shoes! ????

[kevvy]

2 hours ago, KennethSmiles said:

They have no interest in helping the have not's, only interested in emulating the greedy and the well off. 

Not another one stating .. the have nots ..Had one western guy here in chiang rai talking about the have nots and the haves . It is sad to see this in any society . People should try to help everyone

[canthai55]

1 minute ago, Farangwithaplan said:

Ah that old chestnut. "Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes."

 

That way, when you do judge them you will be a mile away. And you will have their shoes! ????

You had no comprehension of what I said - or the reasoning behind that song, did you ?

[kevvy]

29 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're desperately looking for excuses.

He does not need excuses, he does not like the have nots ... Read his posts .. 

[Nyezhov]

2 hours ago, KennethSmiles said:

They have no interest in helping the have not's, only interested in emulating the greedy and the well off. 

Just like me. Thank god Im not alone

Edited April 4, 2019 by Nyezhov

[Sheryl]

48 minutes ago, Kenny202 said:

I'd suggest you have never lived in a remote Isaan village Sheryl. Of course deeds were misconstrued and therein lies the problem and my point. Kids across the road tagged along to the markets with us one time. Bought them some shoes, for no other reason than wanted to make them happy. Parents saw it apparently as a slight that I was suggesting they couldn't buy their kids shoes. Poor people have a thing about shoes apparently. Or the time I volunteered to buy 5000 baht of gravel to pave the track through the rice fields for the old ladies going to the temple. Assumed a few of the local blokes with tractors would pitch in, help together etc. Turned into a nightmare with everyone putting their hand out trying to exploit the situation. Or the time I bought a gas stove for the lady across the road because I'd see her come home of a night from 12 hours in the fields searching around for wood to make a fire to cook. Told the missus when the gas was out let me know and I'd have it filled for them. Apparently the husband thought I had designs on his wife...Or the time I cut the grass in front of about 6 neighbours homes as the poh jai baan had requested everyone have a tidy up because some government official was coming. Not one person said thank you. Could tell you 15 stories like that but those were my experiences. Not to say the people there weren't lovely..they were and I still have many friends there. It just all becomes a bit hard trying to help. Better off not to get involved. It all gets too hard and you are better off keeping to yourself. I never particularly wanted thanks or anything in return but never expected negative outcomes. Definite misunderstanding of the culture. And I can generalise in as much as I never saw one instance of a family helping another family in need, or more concerning kids in need. "not my problem". That was my experience anyway 

 

I  have lived in Issan at one point.

 

Generally poorer area but basic dynamics not different than the rural area I live in now.

 

One can indeed easily cause offense by providing charity, people do have their pride and it is important to them...all the more so if it is pretty much all that they do have. 

 

Also, what may look poor to you, may not be by local standards, and there are gradations of poverty that may be hard for a foreigner to discern/understand.

 

There is also a sensitivity to the possibility that foreigner might "look down" on locals. Imagine for example that a wealthy Arab from a gulf state came to your home country, went into people's homes, saw teenagers in raggedy jeans and insisted on buying them basic clothing. Would that not cause offense?

 

It is far harder or a foreigner to know when and how to be charitable without giving offense (or wasting their efforts) than it is for a local, and often helpful to seek local advice first accordingly. And to be very tactful and mindful of people's need for self respect....and their need to reciprocate in some fashion (do not turn down any gifts of thanks, regardless of whether you need or want them. Do not give assistance in a very public manner that might cause loss of face. )

 

With the exception of outright beggars, no one wants  to feel like an object of charity. We wouldn't like it either. In Thailand with the emphasis on "face", sensitivities are even higher than elsewhere and discretion and tact all the more important. If it looks like you are trying to publicly cast yourself  as a do-gooder at the expense of the "face" of the recipient, people will not think well of you for it nor should they.

 

But none of this implies any lack of compassion on the part of Thai people.  In fact it is my observation that Thais are extremely tactful and adept in showing kindness.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

I  have lived in Issan at one point.

 

Generally poorer area but basic dynamics not different than the rural area I live in now.

 

One can indeed easily cause offense by providing charity, people do have their pride and it is important to them.  Also, what may look poor to you, may nto be by local standards, and there are gradations of poverty that may be hard for a foreigner to discern/understand.

 

There is also a sensitivity to the possibility that foreigner might "look down" on locals. Imagine for example that a wealthy Arab fro ma gulf state came to your home country, went into people's homes and started buying basic necessities for the kids. Would that not cause offense?

 

It is far harder or a foreigner to know when and how to be charitable without giving offense (or wasting their efforts) than it is for a local, and often helpful to seek local advice first accordingly. And to be very tactful and mindful of people's need for self respect....and their need to reciprocate in some fashion (do not turn down any gifts of thanks, regardless ofwhether you need or want them. )

 

With the exception of outright beggars, no one wants  to feel like an object of charity. We wouldn't like it either. In Thailand with the emphasis on "face", sensitivities are even higher than elsewhere and discretion and tact all the more important. If it looks like you are trying to publicly cast yourself  as a do-gooder at the expense of the "face" of the recipient, people will not think well of you for it nor should they.

 

But none of this implies any lack of compassion on the part of Thai people.  In fact it is my observation that Thais are extremely tactful and adept in showing kindness.

 

 

 

 

And yet the guy to whom I gave my samlor was extremely happy to receive the gift.

 

Having saId this, I give up.   Posters are more than welcome to feel that I did so for selfish reasons.

[Farangwithaplan]

26 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

You had no comprehension of what I said - or the reasoning behind that song, did you ?

I did. But I decided to make light of it because I'm happy to bring a laugh to all.

 

[tlandtday]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I hope you believe me when I say that I am not trying to stereotype.

 

I'm only talking about my experience this morning that left me dumbfounded....

you should approach a few more thais see what the result is with a larger sample size

 

[Sheryl]

BTW the system we have in our village which works very well for donation of used items is as follows  (unless you have sure knowledge of a specific person who wants it - in which case can offer it to them but quietly and privately, and worded as if they'd be doing you a favor to take it off your hands):

 

We put it out on the road next to the garbage bins, say 1-2 days before scheduled garbage pick up - but not in the bins, rather near them.

 

If the items are of any use to anyone, either as is or sold for scrap, they duly vanish.

 

If one happens to be around when someone stops near these items, one turns one's back so as not to see.  And, of course, if one ever sees what seems to be these items being used by someone,  one says nothing and pretends not to recognize it.

 

Works very well.

 

 

[Sheryl]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And yet the guy to whom I gave my samlor was extremely happy to receive the gift.

 

 

 

No doubt. And no doubt your intentions were good.

 

But he might have been even happier if you had been more discrete about it such that others would not know if he had bought it vs been given it for free.

 

People's unwillingness to join in the undertaking may among other things have been a desire to distance themselves from something being done in a too public/embarassing manner.

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I hope you believe me when I say that I am not trying to stereotype.

 

I'm only talking about my experience this morning that left me dumbfounded....

 

Perhaps instead of being titled "Thai attitudes to very poor people" the thread would be better titled... "One example of Thai attitude to a one poor person"....

 

 

I don't think your experience is representative of Thai attitudes on a whole... Society is too multifaceted, behavior and attitudes fill the full spectrum to ever accurately generalize from such an example....   Your example is one of facet of human nature and not specific to Thai's. 

 

We have all seen incredible kindness and appalling disregard and cruelty. 

 

 

 

 

[canthai55]

17 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

No doubt. And no doubt your intentions were good.

 

But he might have been even happier if you had been more discrete about it such that others would not know if he had bought it vs been given it for free.

 

People's unwillingness to join in the undertaking may among other things have been a desire to distance themselves from something being done in a too public/embarassing manner.

Face is something I struggled with understanding for over 10 years, until I married my wife.

Her help in shaping my relations with Thai people - how they think, how it is expected to act - made a world of difference.

If you live here, and wish to be happy, best to be a little Thai ... and be a lot Thai in relations with others.

[Sheryl]

26 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

Face is something I struggled with understanding for over 10 years, until I married my wife.

Her help in shaping my relations with Thai people - how they think, how it is expected to act - made a world of difference.

If you live here, and wish to be happy, best to be a little Thai ... and be a lot Thai in relations with others.

 

Useful to study the meaning of "nam jai" and associated rules. It is a very, very important value  in Thailand.

 

And also "sam nuek boon".

 

Not just their meanings but how they are supposed to be displayed. Ostentatious  acts iof charity are not "nam jai".

[JaiLai]

5 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

You know the wrong people

https://www.ted.com/speakers/mechai_viravaidya

 

Since 1974, Mr. Mechai has initiated community-based family planning services, innovative poverty reduction and rural education programs, large-scale rural development and environmental programs, as well as groundbreaking HIV/AIDS prevention activities throughout Southeast Asia.

One very rare example.

[otherstuff1957]

5 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

You know the wrong people

https://www.ted.com/speakers/mechai_viravaidya

 

Since 1974, Mr. Mechai has initiated community-based family planning services, innovative poverty reduction and rural education programs, large-scale rural development and environmental programs, as well as groundbreaking HIV/AIDS prevention activities throughout Southeast Asia.

If you are looking for an example of a 'typical' generous Thai, you might want to look further.  Mr. Mechai is probably one of the most admirable people in Thailand, but he is half Scottish and was educated abroad, so could not really be considered to be a typical Thai.

[Sheryl]

I doubt there is a village in Thailand where acts of compassion/chatity are not taking place regularly.

Think anout it: does evety single person whete you live have an obvious source of income sufficient for their daily life? Are the poorer people all payingmarket price for rent and all else? If so, how do some of them survive?

Not every single Thai is chartitable, of course. But in almost every village many are. They go about it quietly and tactfully. Someone is allowed to live rent tree or at beliw market rent on someone else's land. "Loans" of food and money are given and then "forgotten" etc. Cash payments for services orovidedby a poor petson ate quietly rounded up.

That people opt not to participate in a charitible activity being organized by a foreigner does not mean they never give. Anymore than the fact that I walk right by those people soliciting "for the children" in the Tesco lobby means I don't. Though for all I know a Thai witnessing it may have gone on social media asking about "farang attitudes to poor people".

We all reserve the right to decide for ourselves when, how much and to whom we give help. There is no obligation to co- finance or assist the decisions of others and that is not a reflection of one's own compassion.

And, as mentioned, very ostentatious help projects may be viewed as being in poor taste or wven humiliating.



Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Khaeng Mak]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

Absolute nonsense as regards Thais as a people.

 

Both empathy and charity are well understood and I do not find the percent of Thai people who practice them to be much different than people anywhere.

 

What you say may be true of the particular Thais you are dealing with but it is hardly true of Thais as a people.

 

They run the full gamut of types and characters. Selfish, selfless. Cruel, compassionate. etc

 

There may also be other issues at play, e.g. your motives may for some reason be being misconstrued or your actions not make sense to people as cosntituting charitable assistance.

 

As for the OP's story, I think most likely people either did not understand his plan to have the man make use of his samlor or may have felt it was clearly not going to work (and they could have been right on that score...not at all clear the man had any inclination or ability to make a go of being a samlor driver). Thais understand charity well enough, but development-type schemes less well...and sometimes the ones foreigners hatch aren't realistic to the situation or person for reasons they don't see buy that Thais easily can.

Sorry Sheryl, but I have to side with the OP on this.

 

I have multiple examples to provide but I will rely on just two.

 

First, I know a very poor lady and her much older husband (she muslim, he isaan but converted). He was in a bad motorcycle accident and had a good part of his gizzards removed as a result.  I visited them in their shanty and could see that he was not recovering very well.  So I spent the next month, providing them with lots of extra fresh meat and fruit and veges.  I also provided him with some multi vitamins.

 

He slowly turned around and made a decent recovery.  I stopped supply the extra rations.  His wife came to my house and asked if I could continue because she wanted to sell them at the village market.

 

This year a 30 something homeless Thai guy set up camp near the beach.  He came from Surat.  The local people were very weary of him, thinking he either murdered someone, or had drug mafia on his tail.  The guy speaks a little English so I do like to chat with him as it also helps me to practice my Thai.  I was at a night market with my girl and bought several shirts and shorts for him.  I gave them to him when no one was looking.  In my opinion the only worthy charity is that which is done anonymously.

 

Anyway.  A few days later. The guy asks me if I can buy him a gas bottle and stove so that he can cook on the beach.

 

Empathy and charity is viewed as weakness here.  And in my experience any act of altruism will be followed by a request for more.

[swissie]

Us Farangs are world champions when it comes to charity. Just look at all the Farangs making all those charitable contributuons to younger Thai Females in Pattaya. Nowhere else have I seen Farangs displaying so much compassion and emphaty. It must be in the water.

[Bang Bang]

12 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I've only been here 12 years or so, and have had little to do with the genuinely poor.

 

Which is why it came as such a suprise to see the reaction of Thais to the genuinely poor ☹️.

Stupid generalization based on observing a few people who might have had a perfectly good reason not to want to get involved, e.g., as Sheryl said, they didn't think your plan was workable.

 

But you are a good guy for trying. Heck, if Steve Jobs had invented something like this before popping off, I would reach into my iPad through the digital wires and give you a hug.

 

Because I am what you didn't see in your Thais, an empathetic and kind person who likes to make others feel better about themselves.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Bang Bang

[justin case]

17 hours ago, Kenny202 said:

Thais do not understand empathy or charity

so damn right... most I met are psychopaths, sociopath, narcissists

 

and that was just describing my in-law family, every single on of them

 

rich , arrogant, snobbish, spending money like water,  mia nois , and for all their sins, they go give a large brown envelope at the temple to buy KARMA points

 

 

[cms22]

Thais are discriminatory. Of course. No news.

The real question here is why are you buying old samlors? What on earth for? 

[1FinickyOne]

18 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I hope you believe me when I say that I am not trying to stereotype.

 

I'm only talking about my experience this morning that left me dumbfounded....

maybe they were not mechanically inclined... it is not really a normal request... I would have no idea how to fix a samlor myself... 

[1FinickyOne]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

But in almost every village many are. They go about it quietly and tactfully.

I see this regularly too... I think this topic is just a wind-up... My wife grew up poor, and can be very giving to people with real problems. She would not help with a samlor having difficulty starting... it does not make her un-compassionate either. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by kenk24

[sanemax]

11 hours ago, Khaeng Mak said:

Sorry Sheryl, but I have to side with the OP on this.

 

I have multiple examples to provide but I will rely on just two.

 

First, I know a very poor lady and her much older husband (she muslim, he isaan but converted). He was in a bad motorcycle accident and had a good part of his gizzards removed as a result.  I visited them in their shanty and could see that he was not recovering very well.  So I spent the next month, providing them with lots of extra fresh meat and fruit and veges.  I also provided him with some multi vitamins.

 

He slowly turned around and made a decent recovery.  I stopped supply the extra rations.  His wife came to my house and asked if I could continue because she wanted to sell them at the village market.

 

This year a 30 something homeless Thai guy set up camp near the beach.  He came from Surat.  The local people were very weary of him, thinking he either murdered someone, or had drug mafia on his tail.  The guy speaks a little English so I do like to chat with him as it also helps me to practice my Thai.  I was at a night market with my girl and bought several shirts and shorts for him.  I gave them to him when no one was looking.  In my opinion the only worthy charity is that which is done anonymously.

 

Anyway.  A few days later. The guy asks me if I can buy him a gas bottle and stove so that he can cook on the beach.

 

Empathy and charity is viewed as weakness here.  And in my experience any act of altruism will be followed by a request for more.

No, they just view you are being a lucky foreigner with one of those magic ATM cards , where you can to to any bank and take all the banks money out and spend it on what you want 

[dick dasterdly]

I apologise for being so bad-tempered in some of my replies yesterday ☹️.

[mauGR1]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I apologise for being so bad-tempered in some of my replies yesterday ☹️.

No probs, but you should offer your old samlor to some poor member of TVF

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

No probs, but you should offer your old samlor to some poor member of TVF

As mentioned previously, it has already gone to a 'good' home.

[dick dasterdly]

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

No doubt. And no doubt your intentions were good.

 

But he might have been even happier if you had been more discrete about it such that others would not know if he had bought it vs been given it for free.

 

People's unwillingness to join in the undertaking may among other things have been a desire to distance themselves from something being done in a too public/embarassing manner.

I was discrete about it!

 

Initially, I went to the clearly v. poor man and tried to tell him that I had a samlor that I didn't want.  He didn't understand what I was saying, so I walked to 'my' 'bike repair shop and explained to him - as he knew that I had a new samlor and he was more used to my appalling Thai.  He clearly wasn't happy about it, but reluctantly came with me to explain that I had a samlor that I didn't want.  I asked the 'bike repair man to come to my house as it was going to be v. difficult to start (and that obviously I'd pay him) - but he abruptly told me that the man to whom I was giving the samlor would start it.

 

Getting back to my house, I showed the v. poor guy that I had another samlor and so didn't want (mai au) my old samlor.

 

When he couldn't start it, I went to my Thai neighbours to ask if they could help start the 'bike (but obviously didn't say that I was giving it away to the guy).  When I'd previously had problems starting it they'd immediately rushed over to help, but this time they didn't want to know.

 

I'd wondered why the Thai to whom I was giving the samlor hadn't gone to the neighbours for help when he couldn't get it started - but now I think it was because he knew they wouldn't give a damn about him?