Denied exit to Cambodia from Aran/Poi Pet

[Bdn6768]

Last week as I tried to leave Thailand to go on a few week journey around Cambodia to end up in Phnom Penh and get a new SETV I was told I had to leave through Don Mueang as I had 5 days overstay in my passport. Now, looking at my passport I am no angel in that deparment. Numerous SETV and overstays. My passport is almost 9 years old and it looks like a backpacker on crack travel log. I work outside of Thailand and the first 6 years is just in and outs on 30 day visas...as I only stayed for 28 days. I was working 3 months and here for 1. With that said I have had some long stays inbetween jobs. 9 months a few years ago with all the correct setv. I do have an 85 day overstay as the company  said...ooo...in a week or 2. It was more cost effective...so I thought at the time...and no headache of jumping on the death van to laos...to just do a massive overstay. I get paid well and hate/dread 10 hours in a mini van one way praying I dont die. I do have a few 5 day over stays here and there as work extended to 35 days instead of the the 28.

 

When I got to the Poi Pet/Aran immigration crossing there was an American (I think) infront of me with his thai gf. They were talking for a while with the woman at the overstay booth, as I was 5 days over so that was the line I had to go in. After 5 minutes he just turned around and went back to the Thailand side. Thinking to myself...sucks to be him. I have never had issues coming, going or getting a visa. I handed my passport over and she just flipped through all the pages...numerous times. There are 50 some pages filled with Thai (tourist/4-5 SETV/overstays, Cambodian, Iraq, Somalia and an african country. All but the Cambodian and Thai are long term work visas...as nobody in their right mind goes there for vacations. She said something to me in thai...What do you do in thailand. I played semi dumb and said please say again I dont speak thai that well (thinking that is the test to see if you work there). In a ruff tone she says you live there long time why not know thai. I told her I dont go to language school but will try and get education visa next time as am staying another year. She told me to go wait at a desk. Nevvverr a good sign. I talked...Im guessing the manger/next level up IO lady. She looked through my  passport and asked what I do there. I told her nothing...I dont work there. I produced bank statement from my US bank with over 2 million baht in it and 3 chanotes. I showed her my visas for the countries I work in. In the past 2.5 years I have worked 4 months. So 1 year there straight...4 months work...and now almost another year. All on SETV. I said if I was 50 I would apply for a retirement visa. I actually qualify for the investment visa. But had issues trying to get that last year..but that is a whole other 3 page thread on here...insane on how it changes of what you need depending on who you talk to at immigration...if the person you talk to that day even knows it exist...which after 5 different desk they didnt. 

 

Back to the story at hand. The lady said I need the right visa when I come back. I told here ok...what is that one. A non o B visa. I told her I dont work and showed her the bank statements again. I have 3 condos that make me money to live there so spending money and living money not an issue at all. She asked how long I would be in Cambodia. I said 2 to 3 weeks and fly back in.  She said if I leave through that border crossing I wont be allowed back in. I had 1 visa run in Jan to cambodia via minivan. I asked why is that...to many border runs. I told her I will fly back in. She said the reason I cant leave through Aran border was my overstay. I have to pay it at Don Mueang. Anyway...had to go to Don Mueang.

 

As I was walking out a russian guy was going in the overstay line. I told him what happened to me and wished him good luck and left. I sat down at a restaurant just outside to grab a bite and look for a way to Don Mueang. As I was sitting there I see him go past in a tuk tuk...guessing he got denied too. 

 

Crazy...I couldnt even LEAVE Thailand.

 

As I get to Don Mueang I pay my overstay and talked to the nice IM  lady in the office. I told her my story and she said I could have left through there. She mentioned  they have a lot of problems there like this.

 

I asked where can I find the official rules incase something like this happens again...exact word...Even I dont know. WOWWW

[tlandtday]

No surprise looks like you have been pushing the envelope and someone decided to push back.

[theoldgit]

Your post refers to your Immigration status in Thailand, I'll move your post the appropriate forum.

[Vacuum]

39 minutes ago, Bdn6768 said:

I told her I dont work and showed her the bank statements again. I have 3 condos that make me money to live there

Wouldn't this require some sort of WP?

[Bdn6768]

Had a "denied without prejudice" in blue for my  SETV. So correct on the Embassy denying too. I have been reading back post now and heard many people have been denied this year from the Phnom Penh embassy.

 

I have to look into that for the work permit on the condos. I could in theory not even be in Thailand as they are rented out. They are rented through the buildings management company. I dont "work" but have to ask laywers about filing taxes this year to be in compliance.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Bdn6768
Correcting statement.

[BritTim]

It is very unlikely you will get a tourist visa in Phnom Penh. I would suggest you try Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi or Savannakhet after being denied in Phnom Penh.

[Bdn6768]

I have a new passport days away. Going to Vientiane and meeting up with a visa company I have used in the past. I know they keep it on the computer....but hopefully the sight of my non-abused looking passport helps the situation. That old one was quite rough looking. It just looked sketchy with 50+ pages with up to 3 or 4 stamps on it. 

[Caldera]

Thanks for your report. I remember previous reports of some land borders not allowing people with overstay to exit, but if I remember correctly, that was always for longer/substantial overstays. I wonder if they were just fishing for some extra money on top of the regular fine.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Caldera
Typo

[Bdn6768]

11 hours ago, tlandtday said:

No surprise looks like you have been pushing the envelope and someone decided to push back.

Looking at all the Thai laws I did have overstays. But under 90 days so not a jailable/deported offense...as I turned myself in as I left the country. However, this envelope doesn't have any clear rules. Looking at the Immigration Act I should be allowed to receive a SETV/METV. I will reread them again. When the IO said I should get the correct visa....which one do I qualify for? I dont work or own a business, I dont teach or volunteer, I dont want to attend classes 4 times a week. The closest I would come to and qualify for is a retirement visa, but I am not over 50.

 

I assume they think I work here. But how would an education visa prove I dont work here. Under the premise of me having to buy food and pay for rent...how would an education visa be different than a METV. The education visa just shows I attend classes with no insight as to how my daily expenses are paid. 

 

Not arguing with you...just trying to figure out  the logic behind the idea an ED Visa proves I dont work...it just shows I paid for a visa to learn Thai and nothing about how I pay my day to day expenses. Same as a S/METV. Do they think a student at an ED Visa school is studying 24/7 and not doing tourist things. Why not just cut the BS out of it and say this guy has some money to waste here...let him do it a little more easily.

 

After this month and the scare of not being able to get back in to retrive all my worldly possessions and over 10m baht in condos I am seriously rethinking about retiring or visiting here in the future. Could you imagine investing in a 4O1k or stock to maybe have it taken away or frozen due to a random person on the stock exchange having a bad day or reading the rules a certain way they feel like that day and have a large portion or all of your retirement gone or inexcessable? That's the current atmosphere as I am going through many of the forums on here. People denied retirement visas after 10 years...entire lives, families, marriages, property in the balance of being lost due to some random person at a desk that day. Who would recommend a person to live or settle down when everything can be taken away on an applicatiin to renew a visa. Might as well play russian roulette...I guess there is a new country name that can be added to that game.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Bdn6768
Spelling correction

[BritTim]

9 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

Looking at all the Thai laws I did have overstays. But under 90 days so not a jailable/deported offense...as I turned myself in as I left the country. However, this envelope doesn't have any clear rules. Looking at the Immigration Act I should be allowed to receive a SETV/METV. I will reread them again. When the IO said I should get the correct visa....which one do I qualify for? I dont work or own a business, I dont teach or volunteer, I dont want to attend classes 4 times a week. The closest I would come to and qualify for is a retirement visa, but I am not over 50.

 

I assume they think I work here. But how would an education visa prove I dont work here. Under the premise of me having to buy food and pay for rent...how would an education visa be different than a METV. The education visa just shows I attend classes with no insight as to how my daily expenses are paid. 

 

Not arguing with you...just trying to figure out  the logic behind the idea an ED Visa proves I dont work...it just shows I paid for a visa to learn Thai and nothing about how I pay my day to day expenses. Same as a S/METV. Do they think a student at an ED Visa school is studying 24/7 and not doing tourist things. Why not just cut the BS out of it and say this guy has some money to waste here...let him do it a little more easily.

 

After this month and the scare of not being able to get back in to retrive all my worldly possessions and over 10m baht in condos I am seriously rethinking about retiring or visiting here in the future. Could you imagine investing in a 4O1k or stock to maybe have it taken away or frozen due to a random person on the stock exchange having a bad day or reading the rules a certain way they feel like that day and have a large portion or all of your retirement gone or inexcessable? That's the current atmosphere as I am going through many of the forums on here. People denied retirement visas after 10 years...entire lives, families, marriages, property in the balance of being lost due to some random person at a desk that day. Who would recommend a person to live or settle down when everything can be taken away on an applicatiin to renew a visa. Might as well play russian roulette...I guess there is a new country name that can be added to that game.

I believe you will be able to get tourist visas. However, if you are entering Thailand by air, those previous overstays may well be held against you. Even those without previous overstays are sometimes now being denied entry with valid tourist visas. Safest would be to use your tourist visa to enter Thailand at a land crossing, but this tends to be expensive and time consuming when coming from far flung places.

[LukKrueng]

9 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

I assume they think I work here. But how would an education visa prove I dont work here

I don't think it's about you work here or not. I think it's about you staying here on a tourist visa and you are not a tourist.

[JackThompson]

Never, ever, use the Poipet/Aranya crossing. Full Stop.

 

22 hours ago, Vacuum said:

Wouldn't this require some sort of WP?

Not unless he actively manages them.  If not, it is passive income. 

 

17 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

I have a new passport days away. Going to Vientiane and meeting up with a visa company I have used in the past. I know they keep it on the computer....but hopefully the sight of my non-abused looking passport helps the situation. That old one was quite rough looking. It just looked sketchy with 50+ pages with up to 3 or 4 stamps on it. 

New passport = "start over" when applying for Visas at consulates.  You will have no issues at all.

 

12 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

Looking at all the Thai laws I did have overstays. But under 90 days so not a jailable/deported offense...as I turned myself in as I left the country. However, this envelope doesn't have any clear rules. Looking at the Immigration Act I should be allowed to receive a SETV/METV.

At 90-days and up is when banning starts.  You only go to jail if "caught" or unable to pay the fine when showing up at the airport.  You could on overstay for years and still pay at the airport and leave, but would be banned from coming back for awhile.

 

A previous overstay does not disqualify you from an SETV/METV.  The downside is that immigration can see your history of overstays when you attempt to enter the country.  As a result of having an overstay-history, you may need to avoid not only the problem-airports, but also the Malaysian entry-points.  I read one report of someone with overstays not allowed to enter at Sadao with a valid Tourist Visa, due to past overstays.  It's just one report, though - YMMV.

 

12 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

I assume they think I work here. But how would an education visa prove I dont work here. Under the premise of me having to buy food and pay for rent...how would an education visa be different than a METV. The education visa just shows I attend classes with no insight as to how my daily expenses are paid. 

An ED doesn't prove you attend classes - only that immigration is likely being paid "extra" to provide "trouble-free" extensions (whether you extend or not).  That's the point of the exercise.  They have no way to make "extra" from tourist-type entries, so they hate them. 

 

12 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

After this month and the scare of not being able to get back in to retrive all my worldly possessions and over 10m baht in condos I am seriously rethinking about retiring or visiting here in the future.

Undoubtedly, Immigration is doing massive damage to investment in Thailand, by making it seem like an unstable country.  As to your condos - they are not to the point of seizing foreigner's capital/property yet, so just make sure your management is trustworthy, and you will continue to get ROI on them.  Glad to hear you can keep them rented, given this environment.

 

Quote

That's the current atmosphere as I am going through many of the forums on here. People denied retirement visas after 10 years...entire lives, families, marriages, property in the balance of being lost due to some random person at a desk that day. Who would recommend a person to live or settle down when everything can be taken away on an applicatiin to renew a visa.

Yes, it is maddening - having been "that guy" at the desk - supporting a Thai wife, yet being given the run-around - now doing border-runs like a backpacker to continue.  All the bs they make up over a puny little 1-year permitted-stay, as if I were asking for keys to the kingdom.  I would be more understanding of hoops, if I had been applying for PR - or anything that would provide actual "security," here.

Edited April 9, 2019 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

23 hours ago, Donaldo said:

It looks to me as you are part of the problem that causes everybody to be under increased scrutiny. I think that Thai laws regarding foreigners are very biased and racist, but you don't need to give them more ammunition to justify the ridiculous rules in place.

I do not see why his overstaying would affect anyone else.  His record is independently stored in their DB.  Those with no overstays over a long period have a track-record, which should be a credit (in theory).

 

I do suggest people don't overstay (even one day) for their own sake, given the fairly-recent (last few years) shift in attitudes about them.

[Bdn6768]

On 4/9/2019 at 8:20 AM, LukKrueng said:

I don't think it's about you work here or not. I think it's about you staying here on a tourist visa and you are not a tourist.

What is the definition of a tourist? If it 30/60 days....than at 31/61 days what is a person considered...living here or? Just wondering as there is nothing in the thai legal paperwork/laws. There are many people that own homes here and travel back and forth several times a year. They are under 50...don't work or own a business and dont attend a thai language school. What would they be considered.

[BritTim]

7 minutes ago, Bdn6768 said:

What is the definition of a tourist?

Frankly, it beats me. Some people seem to feel that it involves sightseeing, and possibly some time enjoying beach life, but apparently you cease to be a tourist if you enjoy Thailand for too long.

Until a few years ago, I think the Thai authorities considered a "tourist" as someone who enjoys spending time in Thailand without working. Although there is nothing in the law to suggest a change, there appear to be some officials (as well as some fellow foreigners) who are now mystified as to someone might enjoy spending extended periods in Thailand. That group seems to believe that only ulterior motives could ever induce someone to spend months on end relaxing in Thailand.

[Bdn6768]

On 4/9/2019 at 12:23 PM, Donaldo said:

It looks to me as you are part of the problem that causes everybody to be under increased scrutiny. I think that Thai laws regarding foreigners are very biased and racist, but you don't need to give them more ammunition to justify the ridiculous rules in place.

Besides the overstays in my  8.5 year old passport where I was coming and going from work 3 or 4 times a year I got all the correct visas for my intentions of being here. I do condsider myself as living here now...what visa matches my circumstances. I work outside the country for 3-4 months at a time and return for 28-35 days. I will be going back to work in the next year or so. I actually didnt expect to be here this long on this trip. So my last SETV worked for me and I didnt expect to be here to be this long. I tried to get another SETV But was denied. I dont own a business or work. I am not a teacher or volunteer...not over 50. And as I am on holiday I dont want to attend classes 4 times a week for 2 hours a day every week...not my idea of relaxing on my holiday as I have a set place to be at a certain time 4 days a week. 

 

 

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

What is the definition of a tourist? If it 30/60 days....than at 31/61 days what is a person considered...living here or? Just wondering as there is nothing in the thai legal paperwork/laws. There are many people that own homes here and travel back and forth several times a year. They are under 50...don't work or own a business and dont attend a thai language school. What would they be considered.

Google it up. Many online dictionaries with definition for a tourist. Like any country in the world, Thailand created different categories of visas under which people can stay in Thailand. If you don't fit any of those categories so you think it's ok to live here on a tourist visa... well, Thai authorities think it's not ok.

[Caldera]

1 hour ago, LukKrueng said:

Google it up. Many online dictionaries with definition for a tourist.

Most such definitions are about activities, not about total time spent - such as "a person traveling for leisure is a tourist". If you've got plenty of money and nowhere to be, you can well be a tourist for many years.

 

Thailand, as of now, doesn't formally set a time limit on total time spent in country as tourist. The Schengen countries, on the other hand, impose a hard limit. So you could argue that if Thailand wanted a hard limit, they'd impose one as well.

[LukKrueng]

3 hours ago, Caldera said:

Most such definitions are about activities, not about total time spent - such as "a person traveling for leisure is a tourist". If you've got plenty of money and nowhere to be, you can well be a tourist for many years.

 

Thailand, as of now, doesn't formally set a time limit on total time spent in country as tourist. The Schengen countries, on the other hand, impose a hard limit. So you could argue that if Thailand wanted a hard limit, they'd impose one as well.

Thailand has millions of real tourists visit every year, and thousands who abuse the system and basically reside in Thailand with the wrong type of visa. So they do their best weeding out the abusers without making it difficult for the rest of the tourists

[JackThompson]

9 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

Thailand has millions of real tourists visit every year, and thousands who abuse the system and basically reside in Thailand with the wrong type of visa. So they do their best weeding out the abusers without making it difficult for the rest of the tourists

There is nothing in Thai law or regulations differentiating so-called "real" vs so-called "abuser" tourists.  The rules for staying in Thailand on a tourist-entry are simple - come with your own money (they may ask to see it on-entry), don't work a Thai job, don't overstay, don't commit other crimes.   The OP overstayed, so may have more problems in the future.

 

The "wrong type of visa" case would be those entering on a tourist-entry, then working a Thai job illegally.  There is a special rejection-of-entry stamp for this, as well as criminal statutes applicable if caught in Thailand doing this.

 

If the authorities want to avoid making things difficult for tourists, all they need to do is follow their own laws, which were authored with this goal in mind; this includes leaving open the opportunity of frequent-tourists, as clearly indicated by how the Immigration Act was written.  There are several legal avenues they could use to change this policy, but those with that authority do so have declined to do so.

 

15 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

Google it up. Many online dictionaries with definition for a tourist.

Google is not referenced in the Immigration Act.

 

Quote

Like any country in the world, Thailand created different categories of visas under which people can stay in Thailand. If you don't fit any of those categories so you think it's ok to live here on a tourist visa... well, Thai authorities think it's not ok.

Actually, the top authorities think it is OK to visit frequently as a Tourist, which is why they haven't changed their rules.  You cannot "live" here, as you the max-stay on a Tourist entry is 90-days - if extended, at immigration's discretion - and they would not be issuing those extensions to those with more frequent visits, if there was something wrong about this behavior - but they do.

 

There is a clique of IOs who don't respect the law, and are enforcing rules they have invented to suit their own agenda.  All the IOs at other entry points are acting lawfully.

Edited April 11, 2019 by JackThompson

[mike787]

On 4/8/2019 at 11:26 AM, Bdn6768 said:

I asked where can I find the official rules incase something like this happens again...exact word...Even I dont know. WOWWW

Consistently inconsistent.  So beautiful.  Welcome to the LOS.  Got to love it! Have fun with that one.  Great OP!

By the way, how's Iraq! Basra is hotter than the halls of hell - right! ????

[Bdn6768]

On 4/9/2019 at 12:23 PM, Donaldo said:

It looks to me as you are part of the problem that causes everybody to be under increased scrutiny. I think that Thai laws regarding foreigners are very biased and racist, but you don't need to give them more ammunition to justify the ridiculous rules in place.

Part of the problem in what way? I obtained SETV from embassy/consulates as provided by them...followed all writtens rules in obtaining and renewing them. Overstays were were the only infractions I committed and they were less than 90 days which would have been a required Thailand ban. Looking at the laws there are no limits on SETVs...

 

I have ask several lawyers about the investment visa. They said sometimes they get it sometimes they dont...and there was as no rhyme or reason for being denied it.  The required documents are laid out...but change based on the individual IO who sits at the desk that day. 

 

To be placing people under more scrutiny if I followed the rules they provided...?

[KiChakayan]

On 4/8/2019 at 11:42 AM, tlandtday said:

No surprise looks like you have been pushing the envelope and someone decided to push back.

Indeed, was the OP complaining about something?

[JackThompson]

19 hours ago, Bdn6768 said:

Part of the problem in what way? I obtained SETV from embassy/consulates as provided by them...followed all writtens rules in obtaining and renewing them. Overstays were were the only infractions I committed and they were less than 90 days which would have been a required Thailand ban. Looking at the laws there are no limits on SETVs...

 

I have ask several lawyers about the investment visa. They said sometimes they get it sometimes they dont...and there was as no rhyme or reason for being denied it.  The required documents are laid out...but change based on the individual IO who sits at the desk that day. 

 

To be placing people under more scrutiny if I followed the rules they provided...?

If you invest 10M Baht in the limited-options allowed for it, I see no reason you could not get investment-based extensions of stay.

[Bdn6768]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

If you invest 10M Baht in the limited-options allowed for it, I see no reason you could not get investment-based extensions of stay.

Trying to find a laywer to push it through....some never heard of it and those that have dont handle this visa. Those that do handle it say  it goes through sometimes...sometimes not. Crazy!