Visa free travel in EU

[durhamboy]

Dear oh dear 7by7 here you go again. Please read my posts. I said at least 3 times that I suspect you and others are correct. I was prepared to leave it at that but you obviously are not.

 

As you have chosen to continue this and make comments that I do not accept the answers given everytime I come here for advice then I shall make the following comments which have only become necessary to make because you have, as previously, thrown your toys out of the pram :-

1. I decided not to continue in this forum about 3 years ago solely due to your petulance. Please see my final PM to you sent at that time.

2. It is totally ridiculous, and something of a slur, to say that I wont accept answers given and refuse to accept advice etc. I have taken advice in this forum many times and been grateful for it. I thanked you for confirming that my wife would be entitled to a visa on arrival.

3. Whilst your advice in this forum is generally very good you have made mistakes in the past. I am particularly thinking about the acceptance of an English Test certicate for FLR that is more than 2 years old. So therefore I don't necessarily accept things you say just because you have said them. For example you highlighted the the advice given in an advisory EU website "They have a residence card as an EU family member, issued under EU rules by any EU country (except the country you are a national of), ...." (your quote above with your highlighting). When I informed you that these words were not in the actual EU Directive you said you can not be "assed" to take a look. So why should I accept your advice just because you say something but cannot be assed to back it up? Btw, a simple phrase search of the whole Directive reveals this phrase is not there.

4. Interestingly no one in this forum has posted that they have been refused entry to the EU when taking their foreign spouse there for a holiday without a visa. Rasg knew of one couple that successfully went without a visa. So why is that when, according to you, everything is so clear cut?

 

You say that I can't take no for an answer but I have said, more than once, that you are probably right. So it is actually you who can't take yes for an answer.

 

[theoldgit]

Please draw a line guys, it's getting a bit tiresome now.

[durhamboy]

Ok I finally got some responses from [email protected].

 

The first response said :-

"With regards to your email attachment of the resident permit, you
spouse needs to apply for the visa to visit schengen countries even if
she is travelling along with you.
 
She is eligible to apply under the EEA/EU national family member
category.
 
She needs to apply for the visa to the country where she is going to
stay more number of days."

 

I then followed up with another email asking them to confirm that she would be entitled to a free visa on arrival. After about 2 weeks and a couple of reminders they came back and said :-

 

"In regards to your below query, kindly note that there is no free visa on arrival. You will have to apply for a visa before travelling to Netherlands. For Belgium, you'll have to check with the Embassy, as VFS doesn't deal with Belgium.

 

So, if they are correct, my wife has to have a visa and, at least as far as The Netherlands is concerned, there is no visa on arrival free or otherwise.

 

Personally I have decided to bite the bullet and go to London and get a visa. The whole thing is just so convoluted that it simply isn't worth the aggro and risk a rejection at the airport. Good luck to anyone that tries it.

[Donutz]

VFS is just an optional external paper pushing party. They don't actually deal with visa applications or legislation. The EU rules are clear: if a family member of an EU national shows up at the border and can show a family relation as per the freedom of movement directive,  a visa has to be issued on the spot. But good luck reaching the border... the airline will almost certainly refuse boarding.  So that's why the official  EU website suggests to get the free visa beforehand. 

[Modo]

I came across this slightly heated debate researching family visa applications for the Netherlands. What I state and link below should prove the definitive position.

 

However, despite proving;

 

1.       No visa needed if travelling with family member – debatable if travelling alone

2.       Visa must be issued FOC

3.       British Citizen is EU citizen and has same EU family rights

4.       A UK BRP is proof of entitlement to EU family rights

5.       An unmarried partner has the same family rights to a Netherlands issued Schengen Visa as a married person.

 

Get a Visa ----and if you don’t have one get one fast! All rights disappear the day the UK eventually (if at all) leaves the EU. Getting a visa for spouses/partners from most Asian nations thereafter is likely to be much more complicated and expensive.

 

Re the last comment I’m aware that many EU airlines have briefed check in staff on family rights for exercising to travel without a visa. (the risk of compensation for IDB promptly motivated such policy clarity). But it is still asking for trouble. And if a journey starts outside Europe no matter how well prepared you are with proof of entitlement; I don’t rate your chances of boarding.

 

Weirdly the clearest explanation and confirmation of rights I can find links back to Dutch government pages from VFS Oman. Everything is in clear precise English https://www.vfsglobal.com/netherlands/oman/index.html

 

Follow the link to “Visa Facilitation” on this page https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/travel-and-residence/visas-for-the-netherlands

 

The UK VFS website is shocking. The English is dreadful and so badly written that it at best is contradictory. As written some of the advice appears to be incorrect. BUT it very clearly confirms my points about UK citizen family entitlement with a BRP.

https://www.vfsglobal.com/Netherlands/UK/visa-services/eea-eu-spouse.html

 

If any EU country accords family rights to a partner in its own country then it must extend the same rights to partners in other EU countries. I am not spending time checking if any EU country does not – and if the one you were applying to does - just apply for one that does! Case Law – “State of the Netherlands v Ann Florence Reed, C-59/85, 17 April 1986”

 

Hope the above is helpful in reminding people to get a visa. The next step is getting that visa without going through hoops. As OP said the Dutch try it on. In our case  – after persistent insistence – they offering a single appointment at the crack of dawn  at the embassy in London. 14 days later they conceded and imposed an unacceptable appointment time in Edinburgh. (We look to be about the same distance from London as OP but on opposite side of the country). I’m insisting in Manchester at a time of our choosing; It couldn’t be much clearer than;

 

“Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.”

 

They have irritated me so much I have now taken up the carbon wastage involved in their travel demands and dropped it  on 2 MEP’s LOL

 

In Summary I commend Wikipedia which for a change looks faultless – as I say travelling separately is debatable  - but just get a visa it is less hassle!

 

Rules for family members of EU/Schengen nationals

An individual can enter the Schengen Area as a whole for up to 90 days without a visa if he/she:[63] ·       holds a valid travel document, and ·       possesses a residence permit indicating that the person is a family member of an EU/Schengen national, and ·       is travelling together with or joining an EU/Schengen family member. A family member of an EU/Schengen national satisfying the above conditions can also enter Bulgaria,[64] Croatia, Cyprus[65] and Romania[66] and stay for up to 90 days in each country.   In theory, a family member of an EU/Schengen national who does not fulfil the above conditions does not have to apply for a visa in advance, and can instead obtain a visa on arrival at the border checkpoint of a Schengen country, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus or Romania by presenting evidence of the familial relationship.[63]

 

 

 

 

[durhamboy]

Thanks Modo for your comments. We have now got the visa so I'd like to share the quite onerous process involved in getting it.

 

This was all done by and through TLSContact which is the company the Belgian embassy has outsourced to. They also handle visas for France & Switzerland.

 

Firstly complete application form on line and submit - quite easy. Then you can pick the day and time for your submission and for biometrics to be taken - again quite easy and at least gives you the chance to plan your visit.

 

Take all documents, both passports, marriage certs and certified translation, brp, copies of hotel and flights bookings etc.

 

250 mile journey to London, stay in hotel (plus 250 miles back again).

Go to TLSContact which is near Olympia - not that easy to get to - we walked from Earls Court which took about 20 mins.

Get there to find only my wife is allowed in. I had to give her all the docs. etc and wait in a waiting room. Waited 2 hours not really knowing what was happening. No mobile phones allowed by my wife. One lady told her that we had gone to the wrong country as we were arriving in France. Eventually realised her mistake because you go to the country you are spending longest in which in our case was Belgium.

 

Wife had to pay £26 service charge plus £15 courier fee. This was supposed to be a free visa (and the £56 visa fee was waived) but would have been totally free if the Belgian embassy had not outsourced. I will take this up with the Belgian embassy.

 

TLSContact - kept my wife's passport and all the copies of the hotel and travel bookings (these were not returned with her passport and therefore I need to reprint them all). Passport took 2 weeks to be returned.

 

Visa was issued for 1 month with a stay of 15 days.

Total cost to obtain this visa (travel, 2 nights hotel, meals etc) c. £400 to £500.

 

Needless to say that future trips to Europe will be few and far between.

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, durhamboy said:

I will take this up with the Belgian embassy.

The embassy is obligated to provide clear and complete instructions. That does include information on how to make an application at the embassy (saving the service fee). TLS, VFS etc are optional...  but some embassies have no shame in misleading or errr... 'encouraging '  people to use the external service provider...

 

The extra services of return my mail should cost no more than the returning of said documents via courier. 

 

(Details can be found in the Schengen  sticky topic incase you wish to quote regulations and instructions to the embassy)

Edited July 16, 2019 by Donutz

[durhamboy]

I emailed the Belgian Embassy (in my wife's name) and, very quickly, got the following response :-

 

"Dear Madam,

 

Thank you for your email.

 

As an EU dependant, you did not pay the £54.00 visa fee, but you did pay a service fee to TLScontact. Whether the visa is free of charge or not, there is a service charge to be paid to the outsourcing company. This is common practice.

 

This said, our website also mentions that you have the possibility to lodge your application directly at the Embassy.

 

In accordance with the Visa Code, every visa applicant reserves the right to submit his or her visa application directly at the Belgian Embassy or Consulate competent for his/her place of residence. In order to do so, the applicant is required to schedule an appointment by email with the mission concerned. Please note that waiting times are longer than at the VAC. Appointments may only be made via email on [email protected]

 

Sincerely,"

 

It is true that their website does mention having the possibility to apply directly at the Embassy and that waiting times would be longer than at the VAC. That delay seems to fly in the face of the EU Directive requirement to make such visas available expeditiously.

[rasg]

10 minutes ago, durhamboy said:

That delay seems to fly in the face of the EU Directive requirement to make such visas available expeditiously.

You are right but do they have to make the appointment expeditiously?

My wife applied at the Danish Embassy back in 2016 for a Schengen visa to Iceland and it took two or three emails back and forth just to get the appointment. The visa was applied for and picked up in less than an hour.  

[durhamboy]

Rasg, one would imagine that they do or should have to make the appointment expeditiously. From memory, I think the EU Directive talks about the process as a whole but doesn't separate out the component parts of the process. Therefore I would say that it implies that they should make the appointment asap.

[rasg]

I think you are right but they do make it as difficult as possible because they want you to use a visa provider like TLS etc.

[durhamboy]

rasg, I quite agree.

[Donutz]

Indeed, they should give you an appointment ASAP and -this second applies to normal applications as well:- no later than within 2 weeks (unless you prefer a later date). But they really push people towards the ESPs... 

[durhamboy]

Based on rasg's and Donutz replies, and my own opinion, I did another follow-up email (in my wife's name) to the Belgian Embassy. A very quick reply said the following :-

 

"You are right, according to the EU Directive 2004/38, a visa should be issued free of charge “as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure”.

This means that, whenever possible, a visa should be issued within 15 days from the date the non-EU family member of an EU citizen appropriately proved that he/she would accompany or join the latter to the EU Member State.

 

Your visa application was received at the Embassy on 02/07 and your visa issued on 11/07. The full processing time was less than 15 days, which is in compliance with the EU Directive.

 

Waiting times for an appointment are, unless mistaken, not covered by the EU Directive. We nevertheless strive to give the earliest appointment possible, especially to non-EU family members of EU citizens."

 

Personally I would have thought that "an accelerated procedure" included waiting times for appointments. Also, I don't know where they get the 15 days from - possibly in some sort of guidance somewhere.

 

The bottom line is, as we suspect, the Embassies don't want to be bothered with the administration of these visas. They want the outsourced company to do all the work so that they can just stamp the passports.

[durhamboy]

Whilst all of this was going on with my wife's schengen visa I booked our flights with a well known airline. Before and after the booking I was in touch with them at some length to try and ascertain if, seeing as my wife is entitled to a visa on arrival, she would be allowed to board the flight at check-in without a visa. I sent a copy of her BRP. 

 

They refused to answer the question and instead advised me to go to the consulate in question and get written evidence from them regarding passport and visa requirements. I made the point, many times, that this is a situation that must have occurred many times at their check-ins throughout the country and therefore they surely must have a policy about this. I provided all the facts and merely asked what would their check-in do. They steadfastly refused to answer.

 

I feel that their response is in violation of consumer legal rights. After our journey, I am seriously considering suing the airline via the "small claims" process for the costs we have incurred in obtaining a visa that shouldn't really be necessary. I would be grateful for any thoughts you guys may have. Thanks.

[Modo]

Apologies for slow follow up. We moved back to the UK from Asia on July 9 - so have been tied up with all the processes of UK registrations.

 

I had started the Schengen process from Asia expecting it take time for them concede the right to an expedited FOC visa.

 

I had had several exchanges with the Dutch embassy as above.

 

In response to the take it or leave it response my partner responded aggressively. She pointed out they have facilities in Edinburgh and Manchester.

 

_{ACTION REQUIRED}

 

1. _{Cessation of Prevarication}
2. _{An appointment to provide Biometric Data for a 2 year Schengen Visa as a Family member under EC/38/2004 at VFS Manchester at 14.00 on Wednesday July 10 2019}

 

_{The application has been submitted to you with proof of family validity. Therefore you have accepted the validity of my rights to be issued a Schengen Visa under the terms of EC/34/2008}

 

_{"Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure."}

 

_{You absolutely do not have the right to dictate the date of the appointment for your convenience as below.}

 

_{On behalf of The EU you are requiring an environmentally damaging and in my opinion unnecessary journey that has carbon offset implications}

 

_{I reiterate;}

 

_{Please provide an appointment as required by EC/38/2004 at VFS Manchester at 14.00 or after on Wednesday July 10 2014.}

 

The requested appointment was granted by return!!! The visa was issued without a service fee - can't see how that is remotely legal. We were charged £33.17 for courier in lieu of returning to Manchester to collect. It was the full 2 years demanded. It took 14 days from appointment to return.

 

Even then the appointment did not go smoothly, They requested marriage certificate, flight booking and hotel bookings. She just told them they had no right to any of these but they insisted the embassy stipulates them. I was able to forward through WhatsApp both hotel and flights during the appointment. Re Marriage Certificate she was prepared with a copy of "State of the Netherlands v Ann Florence Reed, C-59/85, 17 April 1986". LOL That case law requires to treat partners from other states equally with married couples if that member state in any way accords such rights to its own citizens.

 

Result achieved within the desired timescale - allowed a 4 week safety margin before the booked trip. But what a lot of aggro!!!

 

If the UK stays in the EU I will return to the issue on behalf of others  We have both filed a Data Subject Access Request on the Dutch embassy. 

[durhamboy]

Modo, well done on standing firm on your rights and getting the expedited visa. Interesting that there was no service charge although the courier fee looks a little excessive - more than twice the courier fee I paid for our Belgian schengen.

 

One thing puzzles me. I thought this process was for visas up to 90 days. You wanted and got a 2 year visa. If you don't mind my question - why did you want a 2 year one? Thanks.

[rasg]

5 hours ago, Modo said:

We have both filed a Data Subject Access Request on the Dutch embassy. 

What is this for? What are you hoping to find out?

 

Well done Modo! I had to get a bit stroppy with the Danish embassy back in 2016 to get an appointment for a Schengen for a holiday in Iceland and that worked too. Not as well as yours though!

[Modo]

On 7/30/2019 at 10:06 AM, durhamboy said:

One thing puzzles me. I thought this process was for visas up to 90 days. You wanted and got a 2 year visa. If you don't mind my question - why did you want a 2 year one? Thanks.

By 2 years I'm referring to 2 year multi-entry.

 

I have seen too many examples on other forums where the issuing country has insisted on only issuing single entry for a first application even when citing "family". I didn't fancy having to visit VFS again as soon as wet back from Holland to apply again. AND given the current potential for Brexit best get 2 years whilst is still free and easy!

[Modo]

On 7/30/2019 at 2:07 PM, rasg said:

What is this for? What are you hoping to find out?

 

I fired the DSAR whilst mid argument and before they conceded.

 

TBF they conceded at every point within 24 hours. But I still want to know the internal advice that made them try and bluff me to VFS on a paid basis. It was persistent. And reading around it is clear they have done the same to others who did not fight as I did.

 

As background to my belligerence. My partner and I lived together in Macau SAR for 8 years before settling in the UK on July 9. Just about every year we had visa issues travelling to UK/Europe. And given that applications and collections had to be made in Hong Kong I ended up getting a deep legal knowledge of processes and rights. Insistence on retaining passports during application was a major problem as the passport is needed to return "home" to Macau! With all the "optional" added value services a UK 6 month tourist visa was coming out at about £400 including travel back and forth to HK!