Farang Dad's

[captcraig]

I'm married to a Thai lady and we have one biological daughter between us, we currently live in the States but will be moving very soon to Thailand. I don't forsee this happening but if for some reason my wife and I were not staying together anymore, what would my rights be to my daughter? she has American citizenship but born in Thailand. I know it may sound stupid but I like to look at every situation before it could happen. I do know that without my daughter my life would be over...she is my life.

[jbowman1993]

strong marriage I see......

[Phil Conners]

What's a BM ?

[Boo]

There have been a few threads discussing legal rights of foreign fathers but I recall it is not considered parental kidnapping of one parent takes the chilren away from the other in thailand. A few guys have told their story of how after a marriage breakdown their kids have been whisked away to somewhere else & they have had trouble finding out where. No real suggestion except if you think your wife is conseridering this then dont leave the states. A discussion with a good thai lawyer may also throw some options up as there may be some kind of court ordered joint custody document possibe???

[tuky]

What's a BM ?

My thoughts too...

[keestha]

It's a typo! He only forgot the vowel U, to be placed in between the two consonants.

[captcraig]

BM is board member!

[captcraig]

strong marriage I see......

maybe you missed the part where I said " I don't for see this happening" just wanting to cover all my bases.

[nikster]

strong marriage I see......

maybe you missed the part where I said " I don't for see this happening" just wanting to cover all my bases.

there are some bases that can't be covered... much better to deal with it when or if it happens.

soon-to-be dad w/ thai wife here...

Edited March 10, 2007 by nikster

[Thai-Spy]

There have been a few threads discussing legal rights of foreign fathers but I recall it is not considered parental kidnapping of one parent takes the chilren away from the other in thailand. A few guys have told their story of how after a marriage breakdown their kids have been whisked away to somewhere else & they have had trouble finding out where. No real suggestion except if you think your wife is conseridering this then dont leave the states. A discussion with a good thai lawyer may also throw some options up as there may be some kind of court ordered joint custody document possibe???

Even if they never leave the United States all together, there is no way to indefinitely forestall the Thai parent from asserting their right to obtain Thai citizenship and a Thai passport for the child. This is the case even overseas, so long as the Thai parent can secure a copy of the child's birth certificate, then a filing for documentation of the child is made to the Royal Thai Embassy or Consulate having jurisdiction. Thereafter the only way to stop them getting on the plane is to have a court award sole custody to the non-Thai parent or issue an injunction against the Thai parent removing the child from the country of origin.

It is possible to request the US government to notify you if an application is made for a US passport for the child by filing a form DS-3077 "Request For Entry Into Children's Passport Issuance Alert Program" with the US Department of State.

Further reading on the subject can be found here:

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/abduction_580.html

and here:

http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/c...ountry_528.html

The second link has some citations from Thai law which are relevant to all nationalities. (Reproduced at length here as non-copyright material in the public domain per http://travel.state.gov/about/about_2727.html)

GENERAL INFORMATION: Parental Kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand and Thai authorities will not issue a warrant or become involved should one parent take a child without the other parent's authorization. The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction cannot be invoked if a child is taken from the United States to Thailand, or vice versa, by one parent against the wishes of the other parent or in violation of a U.S. custody order.

CHILD CUSTODY: Under Thai law, the question of child custody is addressed in Book Five of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code under the general headings Termination of Marriage and Rights and Duties of Parent and Child. The relevant portions of the law follow in full:

Section 1520.

In case of divorce by mutual consent, the agreement for the exercise of parental power over each of the children shall be made in writing. In the absence of such agreement or (if) an agreement thereon cannot be reached, the matter shall be decided by the court.

In case of divorce by judgment of the court, the parental power belongs to the party in whose favor the judgment is given, unless it is decided by the court that the parental power shall belong to the other party, or that a third person shall be the guardian.

Section 1521.

If it appears that the guardian as provided in Section 1520 behaves himself or herself improperly or there is a change of circumstances after the appointment, the court has the power, after taking into consideration the happiness and interest of the child, to give an order appointing a new guardian.

Although the parental power belongs to one party, the other has the right to continue such personal relation with the child as may be reasonable according to the circumstances.

Section 1522.

In the case of divorce by mutual consent, an arrangement shall be made and contained in the agreement of divorce as to who, both of the spouses or either spouse, will contribute to the maintenance of the children and how much is the contribution. In case of divorce by judgment of the court or in case the agreement of divorce contains no provisions concerning the maintenance of the children, the court shall determine it.

Section 1566.

A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris. The parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the following cases:

(1) The father or mother is dead;

(2) It is uncertain whether the father or the mother is living or dead;

(3) The father or the mother has been adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent;

(4) The father or the mother is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity;

(5) The parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an order of the court.

The parental power is exercised by the mother, when the child was born out of wedlock and has not yet been legitimated by the father according to Section 1547.

Section 1567.

A person exercising parental power has the right:

(1) to determine the child's place of residence

(2) to punish the child in a reasonable manner for disciplinary purposes;

(3) to require the child to do such work as may be reasonable to his ability and condition in life,

(4) to demand the return of the child from any person who unlawfully detains him.

As shown above, the question of child custody under Thai law is addressed mainly in the context of termination of marriage. It is therefore difficult to speculate about what kind of stance the Thai courts would take toward a custody decision made in the absence of the termination of a marriage, e.g., in the event of a legal separation.

As a matter of law, foreigners are treated on an equal basis with Thai citizens in matters relating to child custody. Thai law makes no distinction between the rights of the father and mother on issues of child custody.

ENFORCEMENT OF FOREIGN ORDERS: Foreign orders (including U.S. custody orders) are not enforced/enforceable in Thailand. American citizens who travel to Thailand place themselves under the jurisdiction of Thai courts. If a taking parent chooses to remain in Thailand with a child or leave a child behind in Thailand, the U.S. Embassy cannot force either the taking parent or the Thai Government to return the child to the United States. American citizens planning a trip to Thailand with dual national children should bear this in mind.

ACQUIRING THAI NATIONALITY: The Thai Nationality Act, Doc No. 2, B.E. 2535 (1992), states that any child born in Thailand of at least one Thai-citizen parent is a Thai citizen. If the child is born outside of Thailand, and has at least one Thai-citizen parent, the Thai parent can report the birth of the child to the nearest Thai Embassy or Consulate and the child will acquire Thai citizenship.

SPECIAL COURTS: Juvenile and Family Courts to hear custody cases can be found only in Bangkok and a few of the larger cities in Thailand

THAI PASSPORTS FOR CHILDREN: Parents wishing to obtain a Thai passport for their child must present a Birth Certificate (for children under14 years-old) or Thai identity card (for children between 15-20 years-old) of the child, the House Registration Certificate and the identity cards of mother and father. Both parents must accompany their minor child during the application process. In case one of the parents is unable to be present, he/she must sign a letter of consent, which must be brought to the office by the other parent and the minor.

[jayinoz]

If\When ur marriage breaks down in Thailand & u need to consider custody issues I have found that the Women typically has most of the rights. As in any Farang country- probably moreso in a Farang country...

I have had 2 marriages break down to normal Thai girls. One child from each. Both born in Aussie.

Once in Thailand and the relationship breaks it is whom wants the child more that seems to prevail.

Marriage 1- Self obsessed partner whom easily gave up her rights as a Mother for 30K cash. She educated from well to do family yet was able to be bought for 1 Mil bt.

Marriage 2- Very maternal Mum yet very Jai Rawn with a large touch of Baaa. Now this has been a challenge. Uneducated Mum from poor village family cannot be bought out for any sum. Thus court looms for custody... Chances are I will have rights to see my child yet he is as good as gone with an insane Mum. He only 1 yo, so as he gets older he will have more choices himself. Unless his insane Mum kills him first.

To me this showed me that the money has little to do with custody unless u can buy the other off- literally...

[MikeyIdea]

Excellent post thai-spy.

A quick sum-up.

Forget any foreign papers, they have as little value as used toilet paper. Sample: practically, you and your wife are not married in Thailand only because you are married abroad. You can use the marriage certificate to get your foreign marriage registered in Thailand of course, but your misses and you are not married in Thailand until you do and laws regarding e.g. custody of child apply as if you are not married

Forget that the child is an American Citizen and that she has an American passport. That has no legal meaning whatsoever in Thailand. There are no negative aspects either, it simply means exactly nothing.

Forget DNA… Well, not quite, it's just that it is not needed. If the fathers name is specified on the birth certificate and the mother does not contest the fathership, then DNA is not going to be asked for. If the mother contests that you are the biological father, then you need to get a letter from juvenile court, then you go to a government hospital in Thailand (not any hospital) and get your DNA test for 5,000 bath…

Most westerners complain on Thai Juvenile law, especially people who don't know much. If it isn't as it is at home, then it's wrong. Thai juvenile law is not bad at all, but it is different.

Now, let's see. It is VERY good of you to post here first, I wish more western fathers did, then I wouldn't have to wear out my keyboard offering advice after the problems already have arisen…

I suppose: You and the mother are not legally married in Thailand, if you are then you already have shared custody of your child. If you are not legally married in Thailand, and you have not petitioned the court to get your child legitimized, or you have not legitimized your child by going to the amphur to request a bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership), then the mother has sole custody and you have no obligations nor any rights to your child. In short, you are hardly even a relative of your own child

I assume that the birth certificate shows your name as father;

How old is the child? If the child is less than 7 years old, then legitimization can normally only be done at juvenile court - because the law specify that child and mother must agree, 7 years old is the approximate age when child is considered OK to do that. Westerners tend to scream here; Why does the child have to agree that I am the father? The child doesn't have to agree at all, but the law is written so that if the child doesn't agree, then it must be confirmed in a court. Fair enough?

Legitimization and custody at Juvenile court is very straight forward (unless it is contested of course), you will need a lawyer for the formalities but that's all. It is a 2 step process. 1) Legitimization = confirmation that you are the legal father. 2) Custody. The 2 steps can easily be combined if all parties agree. Waiting time in Bangkok is approx. 2 months for fact-finding session, then 2 more months and the judge (that you never even met) will have signed the paper giving you shared custody. Legitimization gives you obligations (which stay also if your rights are taken away) and custody gives you rights (which can be taken away if you don't behave).

If your child is approx. 7 years old or more, then you legitimize the child at the amphur, child and mother must go there and agree and it takes half a day and cost a few hundred bath. I legitimized my daughter at the amphur when she was 3 years old but that is unusual, don't expect it.

Thai Juvenile court takes decisions in the best interest of the CHILD… Note when you read Thai Juvenile law that the child is always mentioned first, then parents. That is not a coincidence. Here westerners often scream again. What about parents rights? They do exist of course, but the childs best is always considered first in the implementation of Juvenile law in Thailand. Incidentally, the western interpretation of Juvenile law has actually moved closer to the Thai interpretation the last 25 years…

So - the Thai Juvenile court system is not biased against the father like it used to be / is in western countries, nor is it biased against westerners. A good father who is doing his best for his child has nothing to worry about from Thai Juvenile court. He may not get everything he wants but he will get what is the best for the child. Always keep evidence: pay hospital bills, school fees etc yourself and always keep the bills. If you as a western father can prove that you have cared for the child well in the past and is good for the child, then you will get shared custody. And the court will order that you and the mother share time with the child, could be 4/3 could be 5/2, there are many combinations possible

OP: You should definitely go on with getting legitimized and getting shared custody, protect yourself

Good Luck

Edited June 9, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[jayinoz]

Excellent post thai-spy.

A quick sum-up.

Forget any foreign papers, they have as little value as used toilet paper. Sample: practically, you and your wife are not married in Thailand only because you are married abroad. You can use the marriage certificate to get your foreign marriage registered in Thailand of course, but your misses and you are not married in Thailand until you do and laws regarding e.g. custody of child apply as if you are not married

Forget that the child is an American Citizen and that she has an American passport. That has no legal meaning whatsoever in Thailand. There are no negative aspects either, it simply means exactly nothing.

Forget DNA… Well, not quite, it's just that it is not needed. If the fathers name is specified on the birth certificate and the mother does not contest the fathership, then DNA is not going to be asked for. If the mother contests that you are the biological father, then you need to get a letter from juvenile court, then you go to a government hospital in Thailand (not any hospital) and get your DNA test for 5,000 bath…

Most westerners complain on Thai Juvenile law, especially people who don't know much. If it isn't as it is at home, then it's wrong. Thai juvenile law is not bad at all, but it is different.

Now, let's see. It is VERY good of you to post here first, I wish more western fathers did, then I wouldn't have to wear out my keyboard offering advice after the problems already have arisen…

I suppose: You and the mother are not legally married in Thailand, if you are then you already have shared custody of your child. If you are not legally married in Thailand, and you have not petitioned the court to get your child legitimized, or you have not legitimized your child by going to the amphur to request a bai rapp long bott (certificate of fathership), then the mother has sole custody and you have no obligations nor any rights to your child. In short, you are hardly even a relative of your own child

I assume that the birth certificate shows your name as father;

How old is the child? If the child is less than 7 years old, then legitimization can normally only be done at juvenile court - because the law specify that child and mother must agree, 7 years old is the approximate age when child is considered OK to do that. Westerners tend to scream here; Why does the child have to agree that I am the father? The child doesn't have to agree at all, but the law is written so that if the child doesn't agree, then it must be confirmed in a court. Fair enough?

Legitimization and custody at Juvenile court is very straight forward (unless it is contested of course), you will need a lawyer for the formalities but that's all. It is a 2 step process. 1) Legitimization = confirmation that you are the legal father. 2) Custody. The 2 steps can easily be combined if all parties agree. Waiting time in Bangkok is approx. 2 months for fact-finding session, then 2 more months and the judge (that you never even met) will have signed the paper giving you shared custody. Legitimization gives you obligations (which stay also if your rights are taken away) and custody gives you rights (which can be taken away if you don't behave).

If your child is approx. 7 years old or more, then you legitimize the child at the amphur, child and mother must go there and agree and it takes half a day and cost a few hundred bath. I legitimized my daughter at the amphur when she was 3 years old but that is unusual, don't expect it.

Thai Juvenile court takes decisions in the best interest of the CHILD… Note when you read Thai Juvenile law that the child is always mentioned first, then parents. That is not a coincidence. Here westerners often scream again. What about parents rights? They do exist of course, but the childs best is always considered first in the implementation of Juvenile law in Thailand. Incidentally, the western interpretation of Juvenile law has actually moved closer to the Thai interpretation the last 25 years…

So - the Thai Juvenile court system is not biased against the father like it used to be / is in western countries, nor is it biased against westerners. A good father who is doing his best for his child has nothing to worry about from Thai Juvenile court. He may not get everything he wants but he will get what is the best for the child. Always keep evidence: pay hospital bills, school fees etc yourself and always keep the bills. If you as a western father can prove that you have cared for the child well in the past and is good for the child, then you will get shared custody. And the court will order that you and the mother share time with the child, could be 4/3 could be 5/2, there are many combinations possible

OP: You should definitely go on with getting legitimized and getting shared custody, protect yourself

Good Luck

Now I concerned over my custody matter- the Aussie passport, Aussie Birth Cert, my DNA Cert, Authorized as primary carer in Aussie means 'nothing' in Thailand and can only be used as toilet paper.

My potential lawyers state they can guarantee I get custody within 2 months (That the claim). As I have assets, she does not. plus she has a police record in Aussie (This also mean nothing-ohh come on). Plus she is medically sick with chronic liver disease, diagnosed in Aussie, treated in Aussie, does not wish for treatment in thai. Aussie doctors give her maybe 3-4 years... she only 27yo. Chronic hep B all her life.

Yet made sure with all the vaccines in the world that my son did not catch. Supported her for nearly 4 years and her and my son for 1 year. Lawyers request all my bills to prove all this plus my income. All in Aussie certified doc's, naturally.

Given the above evidence to present i am told i will surely get custody as a professional working man, who has the assets and supporting family structure to make a better life for my child.

Now it appears that all this maybe considered 'used toilet paper'- I doubt it. Yet it is possible, as I never been through a child custody matter. As posted earlier I simply paid off my first wife and my now 7.5yo daughter is perfectly happy being brought up between me and my mother. She has the best of all worlds and is spoilt to death and private school, etc, etc. I hope for the same opportunities for my son, now my very Jai Rawn x-gf will not let him go without a battle. Although she does not have the money or assets to fight me in court. Therefore she is gunman this\that, kill herself and my son- blaa blaa heard it a million times...

I only got her out of Aussie because she made false allegation against me to Police and needed to defend myself in court. Whereby i had an audio of her admitting she made up stories. Now the Aussie police after her for perjury in court- yes I know 'what a catch'.

Advice please

[MikeyIdea]

The waiting time for the fact finding session in Bangkok is currently around 2 months so if you haven’t already started the process, then you are not going to get custody formalised in 2 months, not in Bangkok anyway, I don’t know the waiting times in other parts of the country. If the mother doesn't contest, then it will be a shorter period before the judge signs the papers granting you legitimization and shared custody and then another month before it takes legal effect. If the mother contests, then it will be at least another month, probably two before decision is handed down to add to that. To get legitimized and recognised as legal father is a formality, to get shared custody is easy. Any father trying to be a good father will get shared custody. How much of the possession of the child he will get is a different matter though. I don’t like when you write: as I have assets, she does not. One clarification: You get shared custody because you are good for the child, not because of your assets. If you are good for the child, then you will get custody also without assets. If you are bad for the child, then you ill not get possession of the child regardless of assets

Foreign papers: My first sample explains it best I think: A western marriage certificate has no value in Thailand until it has been formalised. The formalisation of a marriage certificate is done by registering the marriage at the amphur. Your different Aussie papers are no different. They mean nothing in Thailand until they have been formalised. That generally means registered or stamped at your embassy and then properly translated to Thai and certified at the ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs. Some papers can be used at this stage, others need to have been submitted and accepted as evidence in a court case before they can be used to anything, yes.

I don’t understand why you talk so much about custody. You will get custody, of course. You will get shared custody easily. It will be difficult for you to get sole custody because you would have to prove that the mother is dangerous and bad for the child bad for the courts to remove her custody. Her sickness doesn’t make her dangerous and bad for the child. That she has a police record in Australia could make her dangerous and bad for her child but that is depending on what she has done. Theft is certainly not going to remove custody, neither is perjury. Unstable and violent behaviour are bad qualifications for a parent though. What your lawyer is trying to do is probably to get as much possession of the child as possible. Maybe he is trying for sole custody but without formal evidence of unstable and violent behaviour then that is going to be difficult. It is not custody that is the important thing, it is possession of the child. If you can prove a criminal past, and that you are a serious father trying your best for your child, then you will get most of the possession, no doubt about it.

I wish you good luck. If the mother is all bad for the child then I wish you all the luck in the world. If you are better for the child but the mother is not all bad, then I wish you most of the possession of the child and that the mother is allowed to and have the possibility to visit her child sometimes.

Don’t tell me anything that is not for the best of the child. I dislike that. That is something very good to remember for court too. Never say anything that is not for the best of the child. Judges dislike that Have I explained well enough?

Good Luck

[jayinoz]

The waiting time for the fact finding session in Bangkok is currently around 2 months so if you haven't already started the process, then you are not going to get custody formalised in 2 months, not in Bangkok anyway, I don't know the waiting times in other parts of the country. If the mother doesn't contest, then it will be a shorter period before the judge signs the papers granting you legitimization and shared custody and then another month before it takes legal effect. If the mother contests, then it will be at least another month, probably two before decision is handed down to add to that. To get legitimized and recognised as legal father is a formality, to get shared custody is easy. Any father trying to be a good father will get shared custody. How much of the possession of the child he will get is a different matter though. I don't like when you write: as I have assets, she does not. One clarification: You get shared custody because you are good for the child, not because of your assets. If you are good for the child, then you will get custody also without assets. If you are bad for the child, then you ill not get possession of the child regardless of assets

Foreign papers: My first sample explains it best I think: A western marriage certificate has no value in Thailand until it has been formalised. The formalisation of a marriage certificate is done by registering the marriage at the amphur. Your different Aussie papers are no different. They mean nothing in Thailand until they have been formalised. That generally means registered or stamped at your embassy and then properly translated to Thai and certified at the ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs. Some papers can be used at this stage, others need to have been submitted and accepted as evidence in a court case before they can be used to anything, yes.

I don't understand why you talk so much about custody. You will get custody, of course. You will get shared custody easily. It will be difficult for you to get sole custody because you would have to prove that the mother is dangerous and bad for the child bad for the courts to remove her custody. Her sickness doesn't make her dangerous and bad for the child. That she has a police record in Australia could make her dangerous and bad for her child but that is depending on what she has done. Theft is certainly not going to remove custody, neither is perjury. Unstable and violent behaviour are bad qualifications for a parent though. What your lawyer is trying to do is probably to get as much possession of the child as possible. Maybe he is trying for sole custody but without formal evidence of unstable and violent behaviour then that is going to be difficult. It is not custody that is the important thing, it is possession of the child. If you can prove a criminal past, and that you are a serious father trying your best for your child, then you will get most of the possession, no doubt about it.

I wish you good luck. If the mother is all bad for the child then I wish you all the luck in the world. If you are better for the child but the mother is not all bad, then I wish you most of the possession of the child and that the mother is allowed to and have the possibility to visit her child sometimes.

Don't tell me anything that is not for the best of the child. I dislike that. That is something very good to remember for court too. Never say anything that is not for the best of the child. Judges dislike that Have I explained well enough?

Good Luck

Fair Enough... She can be dangerous to the child and has a police record of assault with a deadly weapon. She was charged in Aussie in 2007 and given a suspended sentence. Due to her committing perjury in court against me earlier this year, the police have issued another warrant for her arrest in Australia. She is not all bad, yet her rage like events at times make her perform bad judgment calls for herself and our son.

She will make the same mistakes with other men I feel and this makes her a threat to my son. Thus we are trying for sole custody on this basis.

I think who can give the child a better upbringing comes into the picture as well... yet you do not think so.

Yet I get your point that just because she has less does not mean she cannot be a good mother. Is she good? Most of the time- yes. Is she dangerous? Sometimes when events do not go her way. Thus the basis of the sole custody claim.

the police evidence will be critical in this case- upon querying the solicitor they have said the same in terms of having the documentation of Warrants for Arrest, etc translated and authorized by my Embassy. I think we have got a strong case. If she was simply normal with no criminal history then i would not have a chance. Mental and physical health does seem to play a part in whom can best provide and care for the child. Always in normal circumstances no judge likes to take a child away from the mother. As fathers are delegated to a support role only. Providing child support and hopefully geting visitation rights. Due to how dangerous it would be for me to visit in the remote village and her past actions I feel I have no choice than to try for sole custody.

If it was simply a case of the father trying to get back at the mother by taking the child, for whatever reason. Then I am sure the judge would see straight through these fathers whom just wish to exert their power via money.

I have continually tried to talk to my X, to ensure the safety of my son and make sure they have enough money to live. Yet the split up is still raw and court is looming so I do not expect her to wish for a mediation session.

My compromise would be that she has visitation rights to my son, on a weekly basis. taking him every weekend. However that will not be possible if we head back to Aussie, so my son can have extended family support as well. So we both know the score- only one will get my son in this case. The other will be unable to get visitation due to the Rage events that she creates. My job in to ensure that I can prove that she is the primary cause of the judgment errors that cause harm. Which she is...

Edited June 14, 2010 by jayinoz

[sarahsbloke]

It the mother can't enter Australia/USA (police or visa problems) and the child is already in Australia/USA, then you have no worry.

If the mother can enter Australia/USA and get the child back to Thailand (and you were not married in Thailand) then you have a problem.

If the mother already has the child in a Thai village and you were not married in Thailand, you will most likely only see the child again if she allows it.

Thai courts do not like Thai children to be taken out of Thailand, you are unlikely to get custody of any sort from a Thai court if you plan to live in Australia/USA.

Rule 1

Marry a Thai girl in Thailand.

Rule 2

Never take a Thai wife to your home country.

Edited June 14, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[jayinoz]

It the mother can't enter Australia/USA (police or visa problems) and the child is already in Australia/USA, then you have no worry.

If the mother can enter Australia/USA and get the child back to Thailand (and you were not married in Thailand) then you have a problem.

If the mother already has the child in a Thai village and you were not married in Thailand, you will most likely only see the child again if she allows it.

Thai courts do not like Thai children to be taken out of Thailand, you are unlikely to get custody of any sort from a Thai court if you plan to live in Australia/USA.

Rule 1

Marry a Thai girl in Thailand.

Rule 2

Never take a Thai wife to your home country.

Never married the girl- she was tourist Visa's in Aussie. Had our son in Aussie... Had DNA test to make sure I was father. Once confirmed took care of my son as best as possible, even when in conflict with gf. Renovated her families house to ensure my son's safety and comfort. yet they all receive this safety and confort- large list of items yet i am unconcerned. As long as I could play with my son, who is a very happy little 1yo boy.

I expected nothing from her, as I never received anything and we both knew we were coming to an end.

I tried hard to work out a compromise for the best care for my son. Yet she wishes to hold my son and I do not gain access out of her misguided concept of vengence. She declares I must marry her with ceremony, the car I just bought to go in her name plus a new FINO and the family needs a new kitchen. Obviously I was not going to be threatened into doing all these items just so i can see my son. As after I am finished more demands will come and at some stage i will not get to see my son.

Yes I understand if I get him to Australia then she will be unable to follow due to charges against her.

I have thought about dropping my application for custody and trying to buy my way back into my son's life. Then take off with him to Aussie, As I am listed as his primary guardian. I do not think there will be an issue getting on the plane.

The more I hear from others the more i feel this battle should not be fought in Thailand. I can find other ways to get him to Aussie. Yet she knows what I would be up too, if my stance towards her changes.

So I may drop the case and take on a new strategy that will take sometime. Ultimately it will be what is best for my son. To think that harm may come to him in the future due to her judgment errors and mental health affects me greatly. Anyway patience will be a vitue in this case... As with my daughter before....

[jayinoz]

Rule 1

Marry a Thai girl in Thailand.

Rule 2

Never take a Thai wife to your home country.

:(Sorry forgot to ask Rule 1 u mean 'Never marry a thai girl'. Is that correct or did you mean marry her only in Thailand. If so, for what purpose, more rights to future children.

Well at some stage like all girls they wish to marry and have a ceremony, so I see this as unavoidable. Unless you never committ, of course.

Rule 2- good luck never offerring to take a girl to your home country whom you been with for many years.

I do not see how most could make rule 1 and 2 work out if they committed for the long run. The women will demand it at some point- some in months others in years...

First time I married in Aussie, not made official in Thai. That being an advantage in getting my daughter back to Aussie.

Second time no committment under a great deal of pressure. Ultimately this being the main basis for conflict. So getting my son whom has my surname to Aussie is doable, yet getting past the thai family will be difficult.

So I did perform Rule 1- never married, yet Rule 2 she had incredible power to make up stories to police to try and get her way. Ultimately I needed to send her home under the pretense we were back together. Then renovated her family house to a comfort level I felt adequate and safe for my child...

I did my best yet do not agree with her vendetta in never letting me see my son now... It is unjust- yet that is her way.

[MikeyIdea]

Good discussion

A police record of assault with a deadly weapon, a suspended sentence is good evidence. If it is going to be enough for sole custody or not is impossible to say. My guess is no, but you should surely get the lions share of the possession of the child. Your best choice could be to go for sole custody but at the same time push that you guarantee the mother (organised) visitation rights. It is Very difficult to take away the mothers visitation rights totally, and I find it hard to imagine a case that should warrant it too, what you write doesn’t either really. This has nothing to do with that you are the father, in fact, you are fortunate to be in Thailand because the fact that you are a father will not be held against you here. Nor will the fact that you are a westerner, if you behave in court… Respect is a very important word to remember, don’t speak unless you are told to and should, never ever say anything that is not in the best interest of the child. A court battle for custody and possession of a child is not a battleground between parents who hate each other, I bet judges really dislike… people who act that out. One advantage you have that you should take is your ability to control yourself and be tactical. Calmly talk about the best for the child, father and mother must be able to communicate for the best of the child… and let the mother do the ranting

“To me this showed me that the money has little to do with custody unless u can buy the other off- literally...

That is not so. We should see it like this: Money doesn’t buy custody, showing that you are a good parent does. How much possession of the child is more up to who can provide the better future for the child but not necessarily (yet) for a one year old. That comes more into play when it’s time for school. It could be that you have to be back in court again when the child reaches school age.

“I think who can give the child a better upbringing comes into the picture as well... yet you do not think so”

But I do. What you miss is that I consider that the child is one year old and that what you (and I) both consider important - upbringing with good stimulus, let the child try and fail without blaming her all the time, let her fall and scratch her knees a bit sometimes… You know, Thai vs. western upbringing methods – is less important for the judges than it is for us, and that it becomes more important later for the judges than it does for us (that’s what I think anyway). Also, IMO, the fact that you can provide this does not remove the mothers right to influence her childs upbringing. That is her right and isn’t automatically bad for the child. She can offer the extended family for the child, and that’s good for the child, can you do that? I have been in Thailand for too long to think that Thai values are bad, the child would benefit from a mixture of both.

“If she was simply normal with no criminal history then i would not have a chance”

Yes you would. You would get shared custody and visitation rights every weekend, Saturday morning to Sunday evening or Friday evening to Monday morning. Most likely. If you can prove that you have been a good and caring father in the past and intend to continue to be that

“As fathers are delegated to a support role only. Providing child support and hopefully geting visitation rights. Due to how dangerous it would be for me to visit in the remote village and her past actions I feel I have no choice than to try for sole custody”

You are bringing your western values with you, don’t automatically do that. Fathers are not delegated to a support role only in Thailand, that is the (bad) implementation of Juvenile law that many western countries had (in some cases still have), it doesn’t apply here. Yes, you would probably have to visit the remote village to fetch the child, you could also raise the concern in court and ask the court to order the mother to leave and fetch the child at your place. You have to be reasonable, you have to life decently close and offer to pay for the extra cost. It is also not wrong to ask the court for advice, as long as you build the judges the picture of a father who wants the best for the child. If you have to fetch the child in the village, then always bring a witness and video-film it (until it runs smoothly). If the mother doesn’t let you have the child, then document minimum 3 to 5 times and then sue. The court can order another arrangement if the mother refuse to follow their first order.

“Yet the split up is still raw and court is looming so I do not expect her to wish for a mediation session”

Split-ups often are. The mother will be ordered to go to the fact-finding and the mediation sessions, she can come or not, up to her. She would be stupid if she didn’t go to at least the court session.

“My compromise would be that she has visitation rights to my son, on a weekly basis. taking him every weekend. However that will not be possible if we head back to Aussie, so my son can have extended family support as well. So we both know the score- only one will get my son in this case. The other will be unable to get visitation due to the Rage events that she creates. My job in to ensure that I can prove that she is the primary cause of the judgment errors that cause harm. Which she is... “

I doubt you will get sole custody, you could very well get Monday to Friday and the mother Sat and Sun, the opposite is also possible, or anything in between, no one knows until the judges gives the order. The courts will most likely not allow you to take your son back to Australia, not against a very maternal mum’s wishes. If the mother has rage events as you say, then raise the concern. The father worries that…, ask their advice, perhaps ask them to take into consideration the mothers violent behaviour when they take a decision. Let them (nicely, one time is enough) know that you expect to be back in court again because you expect the mother to break her end of the agreement.

Be polite, don’t give up or give in easily, be hard and be reasonable, expect the judges to negotiate extensively rather than order - Thai judges know that the parents are more likely to honour an agreement than an order – don’t pay too much money at this stage. That is going to set the norm for what the mother will request and judges will not find it hard to formalise the same amount as you are already paying of course. The legal minimum for a 3 year old is about a hundred bath per day, could be a little more for a one year old but not much. That is more than enough for a mother taking care of her child while living in the village, more than enough. If you are paying more, then reduce it…

From Sarahsbloke

“Thai courts do not like Thai children to be taken out of Thailand, you are unlikely to get custody of any sort from a Thai court if you plan to live in Australia/USA”

Yes and No. Thai courts will have concerns on the mothers visitation rights and would prefer the child to stay in Thailand, yes. I have been here long enough to say - So would I But it does not mean that you will not get shared custody, you will still get that. If the mother raises the concern that you plan to deny her rights to the child by taking him abroad, then the court will act to prevent that from happening. But not by not giving shared custody to a caring father.

“Renovated her families house to ensure my son's safety and comfort. yet they all receive this safety and confort- large list of items yet i am unconcerned.”

That’s a benefit for the mother and the father. The mother can now safely have the child in the family’s home during her time with the child and you have shown that you are a caring father.

Don’t buy cars and new kitchens, stop that immediately. It is not going to benefit you really and it is not needed for the court case.

“The more I hear from others the more i feel this battle should not be fought in Thailand”

This is a country where you will have a better chance than in many other countries. This is a country where you will be given a fair chance, also being a foreigner. Do you think a foreign father would be given a fair chance against an Australian mother in an Australian court? No? It does not necessarily mean that you will get everything you want though. Parents living far away from each other are causing problems for their children, and themselves everywhere in the world. No law can change that. I don’t agree with what you write here.

The rules;

Marry in Thailand and don’t bring her to your home country. The very vast majority of Thai nationals moving to live in another country are more or less unhappy and want to come home again. Cross-cultural marriages are difficult enough anyway, don’t reduce the chances of them succeeding even more by taking away her extended family and her network of friends. If you do bring her abroad, realise that you must help her to get friends, many friends or the relationship is likely to fail. If you live with a girl permanently, then you should marry her, out of respect for the girl and her family. Thai’s do not care about the registration of the marriage, it’s the ceremony for the family and relatives that is important. Legitimization and shared custody can easily be obtained at Juvenile court if the mother and the father agrees, no need to register the marriage to get that

Good Luck

[jayinoz]

Good discussion

A police record of assault with a deadly weapon, a suspended sentence is good evidence. If it is going to be enough for sole custody or not is impossible to say. My guess is no, but you should surely get the lions share of the possession of the child. Your best choice could be to go for sole custody but at the same time push that you guarantee the mother (organised) visitation rights. It is Very difficult to take away the mothers visitation rights totally, and I find it hard to imagine a case that should warrant it too, what you write doesn't either really. This has nothing to do with that you are the father, in fact, you are fortunate to be in Thailand because the fact that you are a father will not be held against you here. Nor will the fact that you are a westerner, if you behave in court… Respect is a very important word to remember, don't speak unless you are told to and should, never ever say anything that is not in the best interest of the child. A court battle for custody and possession of a child is not a battleground between parents who hate each other, I bet judges really dislike… people who act that out. One advantage you have that you should take is your ability to control yourself and be tactical. Calmly talk about the best for the child, father and mother must be able to communicate for the best of the child… and let the mother do the ranting

"To me this showed me that the money has little to do with custody unless u can buy the other off- literally...

That is not so. We should see it like this: Money doesn't buy custody, showing that you are a good parent does. How much possession of the child is more up to who can provide the better future for the child but not necessarily (yet) for a one year old. That comes more into play when it's time for school. It could be that you have to be back in court again when the child reaches school age.

"I think who can give the child a better upbringing comes into the picture as well... yet you do not think so"

But I do. What you miss is that I consider that the child is one year old and that what you (and I) both consider important - upbringing with good stimulus, let the child try and fail without blaming her all the time, let her fall and scratch her knees a bit sometimes… You know, Thai vs. western upbringing methods – is less important for the judges than it is for us, and that it becomes more important later for the judges than it does for us (that's what I think anyway). Also, IMO, the fact that you can provide this does not remove the mothers right to influence her childs upbringing. That is her right and isn't automatically bad for the child. She can offer the extended family for the child, and that's good for the child, can you do that? I have been in Thailand for too long to think that Thai values are bad, the child would benefit from a mixture of both.

"If she was simply normal with no criminal history then i would not have a chance"

Yes you would. You would get shared custody and visitation rights every weekend, Saturday morning to Sunday evening or Friday evening to Monday morning. Most likely. If you can prove that you have been a good and caring father in the past and intend to continue to be that

"As fathers are delegated to a support role only. Providing child support and hopefully geting visitation rights. Due to how dangerous it would be for me to visit in the remote village and her past actions I feel I have no choice than to try for sole custody"

You are bringing your western values with you, don't automatically do that. Fathers are not delegated to a support role only in Thailand, that is the (bad) implementation of Juvenile law that many western countries had (in some cases still have), it doesn't apply here. Yes, you would probably have to visit the remote village to fetch the child, you could also raise the concern in court and ask the court to order the mother to leave and fetch the child at your place. You have to be reasonable, you have to life decently close and offer to pay for the extra cost. It is also not wrong to ask the court for advice, as long as you build the judges the picture of a father who wants the best for the child. If you have to fetch the child in the village, then always bring a witness and video-film it (until it runs smoothly). If the mother doesn't let you have the child, then document minimum 3 to 5 times and then sue. The court can order another arrangement if the mother refuse to follow their first order.

"Yet the split up is still raw and court is looming so I do not expect her to wish for a mediation session"

Split-ups often are. The mother will be ordered to go to the fact-finding and the mediation sessions, she can come or not, up to her. She would be stupid if she didn't go to at least the court session.

"My compromise would be that she has visitation rights to my son, on a weekly basis. taking him every weekend. However that will not be possible if we head back to Aussie, so my son can have extended family support as well. So we both know the score- only one will get my son in this case. The other will be unable to get visitation due to the Rage events that she creates. My job in to ensure that I can prove that she is the primary cause of the judgment errors that cause harm. Which she is... "

I doubt you will get sole custody, you could very well get Monday to Friday and the mother Sat and Sun, the opposite is also possible, or anything in between, no one knows until the judges gives the order. The courts will most likely not allow you to take your son back to Australia, not against a very maternal mum's wishes. If the mother has rage events as you say, then raise the concern. The father worries that…, ask their advice, perhaps ask them to take into consideration the mothers violent behaviour when they take a decision. Let them (nicely, one time is enough) know that you expect to be back in court again because you expect the mother to break her end of the agreement.

Be polite, don't give up or give in easily, be hard and be reasonable, expect the judges to negotiate extensively rather than order - Thai judges know that the parents are more likely to honour an agreement than an order – don't pay too much money at this stage. That is going to set the norm for what the mother will request and judges will not find it hard to formalise the same amount as you are already paying of course. The legal minimum for a 3 year old is about a hundred bath per day, could be a little more for a one year old but not much. That is more than enough for a mother taking care of her child while living in the village, more than enough. If you are paying more, then reduce it…

From Sarahsbloke

"Thai courts do not like Thai children to be taken out of Thailand, you are unlikely to get custody of any sort from a Thai court if you plan to live in Australia/USA"

Yes and No. Thai courts will have concerns on the mothers visitation rights and would prefer the child to stay in Thailand, yes. I have been here long enough to say - So would I But it does not mean that you will not get shared custody, you will still get that. If the mother raises the concern that you plan to deny her rights to the child by taking him abroad, then the court will act to prevent that from happening. But not by not giving shared custody to a caring father.

"Renovated her families house to ensure my son's safety and comfort. yet they all receive this safety and confort- large list of items yet i am unconcerned."

That's a benefit for the mother and the father. The mother can now safely have the child in the family's home during her time with the child and you have shown that you are a caring father.

Don't buy cars and new kitchens, stop that immediately. It is not going to benefit you really and it is not needed for the court case.

"The more I hear from others the more i feel this battle should not be fought in Thailand"

This is a country where you will have a better chance than in many other countries. This is a country where you will be given a fair chance, also being a foreigner. Do you think a foreign father would be given a fair chance against an Australian mother in an Australian court? No? It does not necessarily mean that you will get everything you want though. Parents living far away from each other are causing problems for their children, and themselves everywhere in the world. No law can change that. I don't agree with what you write here.

The rules;

Marry in Thailand and don't bring her to your home country. The very vast majority of Thai nationals moving to live in another country are more or less unhappy and want to come home again. Cross-cultural marriages are difficult enough anyway, don't reduce the chances of them succeeding even more by taking away her extended family and her network of friends. If you do bring her abroad, realise that you must help her to get friends, many friends or the relationship is likely to fail. If you live with a girl permanently, then you should marry her, out of respect for the girl and her family. Thai's do not care about the registration of the marriage, it's the ceremony for the family and relatives that is important. Legitimization and shared custody can easily be obtained at Juvenile court if the mother and the father agrees, no need to register the marriage to get that

Good Luck

Great input Mikey...

So I need to state I am living and working in Thailand, under my Co Ltd name. I which I offer to live relatively close then state i am living here indefinately on my Business Visa.

100bt pd (OK- very low), she been getting approx. 20000bt pm + renovation of the family home since the child was born. As I lived in hope all would turn out for the best- getting family counsellors, reading culture books (Trying to get her to without success) and improve skills in her language and anything else I could think of. Except committing to marriage and ceremony. As I am not a big believer to a piece of paper that is a contract for the less fortunate. She fighting me on every little item, made us both lose interest in the other.

She dependant on me paying for her Chronic Hep B medication to live currently costing another 15000bt pm. Yet now i state she must find another way to get the medication she needs. As my responsibility is no longer to her.

Yet i paid for the entire year, so she will not worry about it 'Thai style' until she runs out. If she does nothing then Doctors say she has a year left. The court must take into consideration that the Aussie doctors state her medical condition is very bad. She is trying to make me look heartless for not wishing to support her anymore. Yet she been supported as a dependant for 4 years, even when she was totally healthy. There has always been an excuse for her to do next to nothing. Now taking car of a child is a shock for her yet she doing her best for better or worse. Plus she has an extended family to assist.

It is frastrating that she makes up all sorts of completely false stories to try and save her face in her village. As it would be the only place in Thailand that I seem completely hated.

I cannot see how she will survive but when you need to you usually find a way. She has before and she will again. The family has a lot of land, so they could come up with funds if really needed too. Like they have sold off some of their ancesters land in the past to get by... Now they may need to for court and keep the same lifestyle they got very used to very quickly when I have been there.

Now what if she takes off as she must to get $$$. Leaving my son with her Grandma whom works full time and the child is past around amongst strangers. She will be under huge pressure now, as she hates villagers talking behind her back (They will as they all saw her in a rage and me try speak calmly)

Also is their any lawyers or consultants that you can recommend in CMai. Although BKK will be fine as we 200km from CMAI and 500km from BKK. Current lawyers wish for a retainer of 50,000bt without doing anything yet. Is this standard, or like in Aussie can I request a lawyer whom will bill according to the work performed.

Also the lawyers I have not yet officially hired state she probably will not have the funds to go against me in court. So she will not turn up and we will win sole custody. I told them the issue then will be in picking up the child from a remote village.

The ways in Thai, especially in countryside Thai as so very different to Aussie. I cannot see them coming to court and cannot see them giving up the child without a huge battle. Wild west style.

As you state if she actually support my child in the village it may work out OK, until he 4yo (closer to school age), then sole custody maybe the issue. Depending on her health and the choices she makes in the next few years.

If my X is gone in the future, surely the grandma will not have more rights than the father and I could simpy pick him up. this is what i have been advised in Aussie.

[MikeyIdea]

Hi,

Well, I don't say that you have to say that you will live in Thailand all the time even if you will not or anything like that. I think that westerners make too much a fuss about this. It is OK to say that you will primarily live in Thailand but that you will have to go abroad on business from time to time. Better is of course if you have no plans to leave the country –that stops anyone from taking up the subject of who will take care of the child when you are away, if nothing else. The point is that you as any father or mother may have to travel occasionally and that is not unusual or anything to be afraid to admit. It's more to ensure the judges of your stability: - I work in Thailand and have business visa is fine, no need for any more details. There is a long recent thread here at TV where a western father was granted shared custody and Monday (after school) to Friday with a tourist visa. Not an obstacle. It's possible for the father to say that he will be living in his home country for 6 months per year too, the farang father will get shared custody anyway if he can prove that he has been and is a good father, but it will complicate the judges decision of course; should possession be 6 months with mother then 6 months with father (unlikely), or child only in Thailand and mother will naturally be considered primary custodian more of course, what happens when child reaches school age? Better simplify things if possible but lying is nothing I recommend

By the way - Expect that the mother can demand you to hand over he child to her when you can't take care of him yourselves, if she knows the law. Sample: Business trip to Europe – the mother can demand that you hand over the child to her instead of you leaving him with the nanny. Same for you when the mother gets too bad to take care of the child herself, you can demand that the child stays with you and not the grand mother

I think that it is OK for you to tell the court that you would like to take your son to *visit* your family in Australia occasionally, if… you present yourself well and give the judges the impression of being a good and stable father and of course stress that you of course will come back to Thailand with the child. There is nothing bad in that and nothing different from a father from the south having a child with a mother from the north, except that it is a bit longer. It's not the distance that is the important thing, it is if the judges feel they can trust the person, if what the person wants to do is good for the child or not. Build trust with the judges, if they feel your opinion is good for the child, then they can help you, or they can decide that it is too complicated to approach the mother do nothing... Good father, hard when necessary but reasonable when not possible or "later better". But I would never accept less than the majority of the possession of the child in your case. If the mother manages to get the judges over on their side despite your evidence, then they would have to order, I would not agree.

20,000 bath per month. Where is that? Larger city or small village? Living with parents or alone? I'm not saying that it is wrong to pay more than legal minimum but not showering her with money like that… That is not going to benefit you in the long term I think. I would reduce it a lot! The mother has nothing to come with in court – I am the father and have he responsibility to think of our child's future first of all. I decided that I could not go on paying these ridiculous amounts of money to the mother because it will have a negative impact on our child's future. End of story. Don't be surprised if the negotiator takes down the mother when she talks about money she wants Take her down pretty thoroughly too. The mother is entitled to money to support the child only, nothing else, not herself… Not her extended family. If you decide to support her a bit too, then you are kind, optional, and it won't benefit you much actually. Better to be reasonable and suggest helping the mother with travelling costs when fetching leaving child etc. Things like that. Costs linked to child. The father will be reasonably and give the mother some money from time to time so that the mother can afford to take the child out sometimes when he stays with her. No fixed monthly amount. And the mother signs for it so that the father has evidence that he has given it. - The mother can't work and doesn't have enough money to buy clothes to the child? The father will of course buy clothes that the child can wear when the child is with the mother too… Tough, but this last sample I give is very acceptable. The judges working for Juvenile Court don't like mothers with criminal background destroying a relationship with what they see is a very reasonable man. They are very capable of feeling pity for a sick mother though, that's why I use the word reasonable. I wouldn't commit too much on a fixed monthly basis, 4,000 bath maybe, or exact legal minimum only perhaps, but father pays school, hospital, travelling when fetching leaving child, and more. I would use my right; Extras are directly linked to the mothers behaviour, sure I will give the mother some money sometimes *so that she can take the child out* when she has him but not if she threatens me or behaves badly! Nothing wrong with that at all.

"If she does nothing then Doctors say she has a year left." Is that private hospital or government? Government hospitals are pretty OK and they could have schemes that could apply for her. Check the gold card scheme. I don't know if it can be used but check it. 15,000 bath per month is a lot! I suppose you feel sorry for her same as I do. Her family has more responsibility to help her than you do actually. I'd try to help a bit but she'd really have to try to help too. Forget any luxury. I would pay myself always, never give money to the mother. And not 15,000 per month…

"I cannot see how she will survive but when you need to you usually find a way"

Thais are tough when it comes to it, wouldn't surprise me a bit if she's still OK 5 years from now also if you cut paying hospital bills.

"It is frastrating that she makes up all sorts of completely false stories to try and save her face in her village. As it would be the only place in Thailand that I seem completely hated"

Don't be too kind, then you will be despised. Giving too much takes away the respect for you, not adding to it. Reduce over 20,000 bath per month to 4,000 bath per month and you will see that giving a bit extra to the mother will be appreciated. After the initial chock of course.

"Leaving my son with her Grandma whom works full time and the child is past around amongst strangers. She will be under huge pressure now, as she hates villagers talking behind her back"

When you are legal father, then don't accept it. I am legal father, if the mother cannot take care of the child, then she has to hand the child over to the father. Full Stop. The child stays where the mother is, the mother can occasionally have her during the night too also if the mother is not there but not more than occasionally. If the mother leaves the child to work in another city etc, get evidence and sue.

Prices: I'm at the higher end in my predictions. Price for a good lawyer specializing in family law (very important that the lawyer you have specialize in family law!) is 100,000 bath in Bangkok – lawyer normally working with Thais only. That's what a rather well off Thai friend was quoted, this is for the whole court case - that is considered pretty expensive also by decently well off Thais. A good family law lawyer working with westerners can charge USD $4,000, that's high and he must be good for that price, again for full court case. A good price for lawyer experienced in family law in Bangkok would be somewhere around 70,000 bath for the full case. I think IsaanLawyers (forum sponsor) would change USD 4,000 to 5,000 for this case (full case again). Yes, it is normal that lawyers in Thailand charge for the full case. First issue: Is your lawyer experienced in family law? Has he been to *Juvenile* court several / many times? Prove it please. If not find another one. Second: Price can be for legimization only of for custody, what is the 50,000? Is it half the installment of full court case including custody? Probably. Consider a good lawyer, you seem to have money available, to use some of it on a good lawyer is a good investment. There could very well be other posters saying that I recommend too high, so be it. I value a good lawyer for the most important thing in my life.

"Also the lawyers I have not yet officially hired state she probably will not have the funds to go against me in court. So she will not turn up and we will win sole custody. I told them the issue then will be in picking up the child from a remote village."

Don't bet on her not showing up at all, she will probably skip some but eventually she will come. True that you eventually will get sole custody if she doesn't show up at all but you will never get her to hand over the child to you and you will never get the police to act and fetch the child for you against the mothers wish – without a court order - My guess.

It would probably cost the mother minimum 15,000 to 20,000 bath to get a lawyer. She could get one to join her once only for less and she could fight well if she's tough – but she's got all the odds against her of course. I don't know if it is an advantage if she doesn't show up at all actually. You'd never get her to give you the child and you'd have to go to court again. And the mother would still not have been taken down… Wild west style is not a style you can play. Your only weapon is court.

"As you state if she actually support my child in the village it may work out OK, until he 4yo (closer to school age), then sole custody maybe the issue."

I'd fight for possession now, not accept mother 5 father 2. I would accept the opposite though. Or maybe even 4/3 if the mother really fights for it. I want the majority of the time though. The most important time of childrens development is before school age, so many (life-long) habits that are formed then. Slapping on fingers, always blaming the negative instead of ignoring it and concentrate on the positive… Mother supports the child in the village? Of course, during the times when she is entitled to the child, there are also times when I am entitled to have the child and I will have her on those times, always. That is why I must live decently close (within 2 hours drive perhaps)

If the mother doesn't show up in court at all, then I'd probably request to formalise the rules for the mothers visitation rights – one weekend a month considering the mothers violent past perhaps. Meaning that you can get sole custody or not, that's not the most important thing, what's more important is to formalise possession. And you can never take away a mothers right to visit her child in Thailand anyway, and you shouldn't, and if you formalise it that way, then it will be more difficult for the mother to come and say anything later.

"If my X is gone in the future, surely the grandma will not have more rights than the father and I could simpy pick him up. this is what i have been advised in "

You will have all formal rights. So... Yes and no, a father has the right to demand the child back from anyone except the mother. The child should not have been living with the grandmother only for an extended time before you try to take her back though, that would complicate things. You will not get the police to forcefully remove the child from the grand mother and give him to you. I highly doubt it. Not without a court order. They will with a court order though, they have to. Standard civil law: You can simply pick him up if the grandmother let's go, otherwise you must sue

Wow, Pretty long post I must say

Edited June 17, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[jayinoz]

:jap:Yes good post as always Mikey... some wise words and a fair bit of experience there.

Hope others get as much value from the posts as myself.

My son is only just turning 1 in a couple of months. So I will let the RAW breakup cool down over the term of this year.

As suggested I will only drop of nappies, milk, food, etc to equiv 3000bt pm. This will really put a strain on them.

Then see what happens, if my X heads off for the long term I will proceed and use her being away as not being a mother to my child.

Although she may need to get work or find another out od necessity. She is very pretty so I think it will be very easy for her to find another man quickly and easily to support her.

Yet when it comes to my son I will not be instantly going to court as soon as another man is involved. As most men will not want this battle. This will put her into a difficult situation to pursue men to secure families future or keep her child. It will be a battle of values for her. Yet if she pursues others in BKK or CMai then she will be many hours away from my son.

Not many men will accept to take care of her and the whole extended family including my son. It would need to be a very generous soul to do this. In this event I will check up on my son over the next year or 2 then monitor.

If she does not give me at least 2 days access from age 1, in Sep 2010. Then i will need to goto court to get this permission.

Can anyone recommend any lawyers who are reasonably priced in CMai? I have been quoted 70,000bt from one whom works with a Farang advisor and translator for the full case. Yet i need to check into these guys credentials...I have a booking with them upon return.

I think to only get 2 days for 70,000bt is a bit rich. Over time I maybe able to pay off an amount to get 50% access- maybe. We will see....

Anyway it best to get just the right lawyers now, select the right ones, then proceed when the time is right.

Going off a previous experience with my daughter i know that the 3yo mark is critical- IMO. As Child Pschologists say we cannot remember a thing before 3yo. My daughter was 2.7yo and forgot all her Thai and picked up English within 3-4 months. The abuse she suffered at the hands of her mother was all forgotten and she is a health and happy girl now. With no thoughts at all of her experiences in Thailand. Thankfully.

Yet we all noticed in the first year she was in Aussie as a 3yo that if someone raised their voice she disappearred. As many events happened to her as an infant, it will be in the sub conscious somewhere. Yet her environment is one of only love, care and happiness now.

Only can wish for the same for my son. Our children should not need to suffer for our own choices in partners and those who get pregnant on purpose. You must watch out in a country that you have so many more choices in and not get carried away with being noticed everywhere. As it is not real when compared to your own country, no matter how handsome or well off or such a catch we all think we are..... My 2 cents...

Good one Mikey- you sound like a very concerned parent and your comments are highly appreciated. Thank you for your help.

What lawyers did you use Mikey, or would you recommend now? I am guessing there will be a big difference between a 30K bt lawyer to 100K bt lawyer.

My thoughts are to use a less expensive lawyer- maybe 40K bt to gain access to my son at least half of the time. Then at 3yo a very good one to gain full custody.... Although i guess it does not work like that. A bad lawyer for 40K bt may stuff up the whole thing. Plus simply getting some custody is a lot different from my X actually handing over my child when I drive up in my car- more likely to be handed the pointy end of a gun than my child currently.

If court order states I have 4 days and she has 3 days- can i hand this to police and they will pick the child up if on a court document???

I sent my son a $100 46cm helmet that i hope they put on him. As BIG concerns in regards to all the motorbike driving around the village. My X states it is my fault as i will not leave her a car- yer right- always my fault she takes him on the motorbike for any reason whatsoever- differing value system. Cannot get through to these people and if something happen to him they would never blame themselves. What a world...

[sarahsbloke]

Rule 1

Marry a Thai girl in Thailand.

Rule 2

Never take a Thai wife to your home country.

:(Sorry forgot to ask Rule 1 u mean 'Never marry a thai girl'. Is that correct or did you mean marry her only in Thailand. If so, for what purpose, more rights to future children.

Well at some stage like all girls they wish to marry and have a ceremony, so I see this as unavoidable. Unless you never committ, of course.

Rule 2- good luck never offerring to take a girl to your home country whom you been with for many years.

...............

So I did perform Rule 1- never married, yet Rule 2 she had incredible power to make up stories to police to try and get her way. Ultimately I needed to send her home under the pretense we were back together. Then renovated her family house to a comfort level I felt adequate and safe for my child...

I did my best yet do not agree with her vendetta in never letting me see my son now... It is unjust- yet that is her way.

OK

so the reason for rule 1 ....... in Thailand if you have not married the lady at the Amphur office you have no rights at all over any children, it is her child to do with what she likes. You are essentially not related to the boy and she is entirely within her legal rights (in Thailand) to never let you see the child again. As you are not the father (in Thai law) if you attempt to remove the child it is kidnapping. If you were married, there is no law in Thailand relating to parental abduction.

and the reason for rule 2 ...... divorce awards and child maintenance, pretty much nothing if you marry/divorce/live/breed in Thailand (she can't get out to foreign courts), everything you own if you took her to the western world.

I read Mikeys post, but your big hurdle in Thailand is you aren't considered the father, and without the mothers agreement are never likely to be considered the father.

Mikeys last sentence ....... legitimization is easy if the father and mother agree ............ but he missed out ...... but little chance if they don't agree.

STICK: Also as Mikey says STOP giving them money, cut off all funds, you are a cash cow that they will keep milking and hold on to the kid to keep the money flowing.

Without your funding, the Thai family wouldn't really be interested in keeping hold of a boy, no profit (except from you)

CARROT: Give nothing more until son is legitimized in Thai court.

Edited June 17, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[jayinoz]

Rule 1

Marry a Thai girl in Thailand.

Rule 2

Never take a Thai wife to your home country.

:(Sorry forgot to ask Rule 1 u mean 'Never marry a thai girl'. Is that correct or did you mean marry her only in Thailand. If so, for what purpose, more rights to future children.

Well at some stage like all girls they wish to marry and have a ceremony, so I see this as unavoidable. Unless you never committ, of course.

Rule 2- good luck never offerring to take a girl to your home country whom you been with for many years.

...............

So I did perform Rule 1- never married, yet Rule 2 she had incredible power to make up stories to police to try and get her way. Ultimately I needed to send her home under the pretense we were back together. Then renovated her family house to a comfort level I felt adequate and safe for my child...

I did my best yet do not agree with her vendetta in never letting me see my son now... It is unjust- yet that is her way.

OK

so the reason for rule 1 ....... in Thailand if you have not married the lady at the Amphur office you have no rights at all over any children, it is her child to do with what she likes. You are essentially not related to the boy and she is entirely within her legal rights (in Thailand) to never let you see the child again. As you are not the father (in Thai law) if you attempt to remove the child it is kidnapping. If you were married, there is no law in Thailand relating to parental abduction.

and the reason for rule 2 ...... divorce awards and child maintenance, pretty much nothing if you marry/divorce/live/breed in Thailand (she can't get out to foreign courts), everything you own if you took her to the western world.

I read Mikeys post, but your big hurdle in Thailand is you aren't considered the father, and without the mothers agreement are never likely to be considered the father.

Mikeys last sentence ....... legitimization is easy if the father and mother agree ............ but he missed out ...... but little chance if they don't agree.

Also as Mikey says STOP giving them money, cut off all funds, you are a cash cow that they will keep milking and hold on to the kid to keep the money flowing.

Without your funding, the Thai family wouldn't really be interested in keeping hold of a boy, no profit (except from you)

I agree this cash cow will stop paying out....

We have had an authorized DNA test when we were going through issues in Aussie. If the child was not mine I would not bother, yet DNA states as close to 100% as you can get. She wanted it done in Aussie to claim child maintenance, if I decided not to pay. Once proven I had no problem paying and bringing up my own child. Now she seems to want to give me no access whatsoever...

What you must consider is the child was born in Aussie and has my surname, not hers. I could authorise his passport when my partner was too sick. I am on his birth cerificate and he is not Thai. Until the mother files for a Thai birth certificate from Aussie, which she will not do. As she does not have a clue and will never do. My son is on an expired Visa, he can leave on his current Passport with me. When\If necessary- we have conflicting views that I will consult the Thai lawyers in regards too.

My X keeps our son's passport, birth cert and DNA results (i have copy of birth cert and DNA)- she will not communicate. With the same surname and getting a copy of birth cert it would not be considered kidnapping I have been advised. Maybe they were wrong... at some stage i will be requiring to take my son OS. If I am advised that I cannot do then I will pay my way back into my X's heart then acquire the documents I need. Similar to what I was required to do with my first child. I stopped being a cash cow before for 3 months then decided to take my daughter back to Aussie for a better life. I needed to get back with my first wife to gain access and trust, then a couple of months later she was safely in Aussie.

Very similar situation now exists- my 7.5 yo daughter came back to Aussie with me when she was 2.7yo. Her Mum called the police yet I was allowed to take my daughter back to Aussie. Only difference was we were married in Aussie, not Thai. My daughter born in Aussie. So next to no difference. My daughter had my surname so I was able to pull it off for her benefit.

Now I doubt Thai immigration would stop me if I boarded a plane with my son named the same as me. No chance- show them birth cert and passport at airport and away i would go.

Same as with my first child. I do not think the Thai authorities are as organised as you give them credit for.... 100% for sure I would not be able to in Aussie if the mother was against it. In saying all of this I must admit that with my 2nd spouse she would do everything she possibly could to stop me. Whereas my first wife simply asked police to stop me so she could talk to me. I needed to talk my way past the security to get my daughter to Aussie, plus pay offs were needed. Nothing has changed in Thailand- IMO. It can be done again- yet there is risk involved in doing it this way. So court in Thai is necessary....

Thus I chose to do this in court over time, probably considered the correct way in Thai. Yet once in Aussie the mother would have little chance, as criminal charges are pending against her. So if need be- done it once and I will do it again if necessary. It should not be necessary in the short term, yet it will happen for my son's benefit.

If DNA came back as not mine, then I would not even be thinking and talking about this now. She would have been back in Thai long ago and I would not be discussing this matter.

Yet I disagree it cannot be done in Thailand and many have stated the father taking his own child overseas is not kidnapping. She would need a court order to stop me or for the police to be bothered. Just like my first wife needed and did not even think to get.

You have their passport, birth cert, child has your name, tickets and you board the plane- you are home free........ IMO and experience.

Edited June 17, 2010 by jayinoz

[MikeyIdea]

Hi again,

No, No, No The advantage is always with the one in possession of the child. You can gain nothing by waiting. You should take this to court to get legitimized and get shared custody within the next 2 months. Your son will be 1 in Sep, Do not wait longer than August before formally starting the process. Regardless of if you plan to go back to Australia after or whatever. Do not wait, bad mistake. You can decide not to use the possession you are given and it is the mothers responsibility to sue if she formally wants to change it (which she won't). Or considering the mothers personality, if you wait for 2 years utilising it, then you probably have to go to court to get the mother to give you part possession. But you will be in a much more difficult position if you have to ask for custody and possession then instead of request to get what court already has decided you are entitled to. Fight for 5/2 regardless, minimum majority of the time, and as a good father say that if the mother is not dangerous for the child, then you will of course let the mother take care of him the times when you cannot, let her know afterwards that you will only use 2 for now

Drop of nappies: Little bit extreme. 100 bath per day is calculated from a formula. That was for 3 year olds. I should be a little bit more for less than 1 year old because of nappies, powder milk etc. I suggest paying 4,000 bath per month. Did I write that you could replace the money with things like that? Yes, you could probably pay 3,000 and a thousand bath in nappies etc that the mother use for the child when you are not there must have receipts and you can motivate that with that you as a father really want to be a part of your childs life. I don't think it is all good though. Who says that you should be allowed to decide what the mother use the legal minimum allowance on? You are not YET a legal father, don't push it. If she is short on money, then her rightful and culturally correct choice could be to use washable diapers instead and spend the money of necessities like food. I mean 4,000 transferred to her account every month (so that you have good evidence) and throw in a bit extra more luxury stuff (like nappies, clothes for the child) if you want. To show how much you want to be a part of your sons life.

Don't trust your Thai lawyer to 100%. Don't let him know that you are satisfied with 2 days! Big exclamation mark. Applies to all lawyers but even more as he is Thai and you are farang. You have quite a lot of good stuff on your side, Your communication to your lawyer should be sole try for custody but minimum 5/2 I think. You will have to prove that you are ready to take care of the child. Must have thought of nanny if you work, have company name and phone number, whatever, just so that your lawyer can say - Yes, already investigated etc.

"Over time I maybe able to pay off an amount to get 50% access- maybe. We will see...."

Don't work that way. Work - Get it now and use less if you want

"Pschologists say we cannot remember a thing before 3yo."

Can't remember is correct I think. Habits are a totally different matter though, if you're a humble suppressed 3 year old then you're not going to be a strong leader ever. I bet George Bush was stupid but showed leadership talents already when he was 3 years old I believe very much in the power of the unconscious mind

The lawyer I used is in Bangkok, charge USD 4,000 - not cheap. If you now are looking at legitimization, shared custody and willing to accept LESS than 50% possession, then I don't think you will need him. A less expensive lawyer, with family law experience!, should easily be enough with that you have.

"My thoughts are to use a less expensive lawyer- maybe 40K bt to gain access to my son at least half of the time. Then at 3yo a very good one to gain full custody...."

You now that's a bad idea now. Full custody = shared custody you will get now easily. You will never get sole custody in 2 years time if you don't get it now (and you probably won't get it now either).

"If court order states I have 4 days and she has 3 days- can i hand this to police and they will pick the child up if on a court document???"

NO, the police will refuse to act against the mother or a member of the extended family. Even if you have a court paper stating possession at certain times, then parental kidnapping is not a criminal offence in Thailand the concept doesn't exist even. The police will most likely choose to read that as extended family kidnapping does not exist in Thailand. Since it's not a criminal offence, then it's a civil offence and they are out of jurisdiction. You will have to go to court and the court will order. The line is a bit fuzzy here. The police will not act against the mother but they may accept to come with you to the grand mother, I can see the police discussing and telling the grand mother the law, still, I doubt the police would forcefully remove the child from the grand mother. Could happen but I doubt it. After all, there are many more cases in Thailand where the grand mother take the child from the parents because the child is not cared for properly, than it is for mischievous intent. With a court paper in hand, ordering the mother (or grand mother) to provide the legal father with possession of the child sure they will act. They have to.

Helmet… I think you know that I am a person who loves family more than anything in life. I love my daughter over everything and I'd donor my heart to her tomorrow if she needed it. Still I drive my daughter the 300 meters to school without helmet, in Bangkok even. And I allowed her to sit in the car without using the car seat and seat belt before. I worked on getting her to accept the seat belt of course but not to the level where it affected the happiness of travelling. My daughter is now 5 years old and she does put on her seat belt herself. She will start first grade next year and I will buy her a helmet and she will put it on herself. What I did was very very hard work. I accepted my daughter to be unprotected and took the shit on me. I tried to drive as safely and alertly as ever possible, always keeping concentration up. We have been to 50 provinces by car in Thailand like that Driving motorcycle without a helmet is the most common reason for pre-mature death in Thailand I think… I would do exactly the same as you do, I trust myself, that doesn't mean that I trust others. But I wouldn't expect the helmet to be always be used. If it is used on the little bit longer trips to the market, then I would be happy. Good initiative, I hope that the mother uses it as much as possible

"My X states it is my fault as i will not leave her a car"

You have spoilt her

Michael

Edited June 18, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[sarahsbloke]

When I first came to Thailand, I was going through a nasty divorce in the UK.

My UK wife had told me I would never see my children again.

My Thai gf (I would describe her as a violent but small-time criminal) was looking at photos of my UK children, in particular at a photo of my 5-year-old son.

"I would like to have this son, if you can get him to Thailand my family will protect you and he will never be seen by foreigners no matter how hard they look"

Thailand is a scary place and Thais pretty much don't give a stuff about the laws of other countries.

I wish you the best of luck regaining access to your child. It is a fight I wouldn't even think of beginning, you are a stronger person than I.

[MikeyIdea]

“agree this cash cow will stop paying out....”

Alimony in Thailand is only for the child. Stopping paying totally gives the mother a very good reason to say - Why should he has any possession of the child, he doesn’t even pay. Also note that it is common to counter sue. Mother can sue to request the father to be legitimized with no custody and pay legal minimum. Do not stop, we are talking about your small child here, but reduce it very much. I recommend 4,000 bath per month. Judges do not like fathers who do not pay anything for their children

The child is Thai because the mother is Thai. The mother just hasn’t formalized it. It shouldn’t be difficult for her to do as she has the original Aussie birth cert. Don’t know but translation certified by ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs is the normal way for the paper work. Then there is probably a way for the mother to get the child registered in Thailand I am sure. It wouldn’t surprise me if it is easier to do from within Thailand than we think it is. This discussion doesn’t matter actually because you would never get the police to act against the mother anyway (without court order). Yes, you will be able to leave Thailand with your son on his expired visa, if you can get hold of the passport and the child, will you? Don’t underestimate the mother, she knows that the child needs to be in the system to be able to go to school

I don’t think what you have described as a very maternal mother would ever let her child to Australia. I don’t the paying your way door is open - You were the one using the phrase “very maternal mother”

Thai immigration: Don’t know. I was stopped with my daughter, my surname, I had both Thai and Swedish passports for her (both blank as my daughter is born in Thailand) and they demanded Thai birth cert which I hadn’t brought with me. Surname doesn’t matter a bit. I managed to talk her out by saying that the mother already had passed in the Thai queue (which was true). Australian entry stamp is the big difference, I didn’t have that. Probably, yes, would I bet on it? No.

Child overseas and kidnapping: If not married and not legitimized then mother can formally sue for kidnapping. My experience: Immigration would stop father from taking child out of Thailand, only Thai passport is not enough to get the child out. This is regardless of if father has shared custody or not because of the simple reason that the immigration officer doesn’t know that. If the father has the childs birth certificate, then they are most likely allowed through. They will easily be allowed through if he has a letter from the mother or something like that. If you go to court and get custody, then it can never be kidnapping if you take your child abroad, it’s a civil law case. Now, if the non-legal father pushes it, then I think the police would stop the father and the child from leaving the country, arrest for kidnapping? No, if the fathers name is on the Thai birth certificate, then I don’t think so. But he would have to provide papers if his legitimacy and if he can’t then they could probably take the child from him and give to the mother perhaps. It’s probably also a question of time to, if the father is given time to get papers lawyer and he simply can’t produce any, then they police should feel pretty safe to give the child to the mother.

Now is the time

[MikeyIdea]

CARROT: Give nothing more until son is legitimized in Thai court.

Thai judges in Juvenile court don't like fathers who don't pay anything for their children. Pay minimum legal minimum or it will reduce the possession you get. Why do you think you have right to part possession of the child if you don't pay anything for him?

[phuketrichard]

The waiting time for the fact finding session in Bangkok is currently around 2 months so if you havent already started the process, then you are not going to get custody formalised in 2 months, not in Bangkok anyway, I dont know the waiting times in other parts of the country. If the mother doesn't contest, then it will be a shorter period before the judge signs the papers granting you legitimization and shared custody and then another month before it takes legal effect. If the mother contests, then it will be at least another month, probably two before decision is handed down to add to that. To get legitimized and recognised as legal father is a formality, to get shared custody is easy. Any father trying to be a good father will get shared custody. How much of the possession of the child he will get is a different matter though. I dont like when you write: as I have assets, she does not. One clarification: You get shared custody because you are good for the child, not because of your assets. If you are good for the child, then you will get custody also without assets. If you are bad for the child, then you ill not get possession of the child regardless of assets

Foreign papers: My first sample explains it best I think: A western marriage certificate has no value in Thailand until it has been formalised. The formalisation of a marriage certificate is done by registering the marriage at the amphur. Your different Aussie papers are no different. They mean nothing in Thailand until they have been formalised. That generally means registered or stamped at your embassy and then properly translated to Thai and certified at the ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs. Some papers can be used at this stage, others need to have been submitted and accepted as evidence in a court case before they can be used to anything, yes.

I dont understand why you talk so much about custody. You will get custody, of course. You will get shared custody easily. It will be difficult for you to get sole custody because you would have to prove that the mother is dangerous and bad for the child bad for the courts to remove her custody. Her sickness doesnt make her dangerous and bad for the child. That she has a police record in Australia could make her dangerous and bad for her child but that is depending on what she has done. Theft is certainly not going to remove custody, neither is perjury. Unstable and violent behaviour are bad qualifications for a parent though. What your lawyer is trying to do is probably to get as much possession of the child as possible. Maybe he is trying for sole custody but without formal evidence of unstable and violent behaviour then that is going to be difficult. It is not custody that is the important thing, it is possession of the child. If you can prove a criminal past, and that you are a serious father trying your best for your child, then you will get most of the possession, no doubt about it.

I wish you good luck. If the mother is all bad for the child then I wish you all the luck in the world. If you are better for the child but the mother is not all bad, then I wish you most of the possession of the child and that the mother is allowed to and have the possibility to visit her child sometimes.

Dont tell me anything that is not for the best of the child. I dislike that. That is something very good to remember for court too. Never say anything that is not for the best of the child. Judges dislike that Have I explained well enough?

Good Luck

Mikyidea IN BOLD is not true. I was never married to my thai wife in Thailand. WE were married in America. WE had a child out of wedlock and then later got marrried. I never got any sort of formalized paper in thailand saying we were married. My daughter holds a US and thai passport. I got divorced in THAILAND and got full custody of my daughter. Went thru the childrens court here in Phuket. A thai court does not side with the thai but looks at the best interest of the child. The mother never bothered showing up for court.

So much of what u read here is not true. I have taken my daughter in and out of Thailand dozens of times and never once been stopped or asked any questions, never been asked for a birth certificate. She enters and leaves Thailand on her thai passport and then travels on her US passport. Never any trouble and this has been the way since she was 2 years old.

"This is regardless of if father has shared custody or not because of the simple reason that the immigration officer doesn’t know that. If the father has the childs birth certificate, then they are most likely allowed through"

why would having the birth certificate make a dam bit of difernece??

Edited June 18, 2010 by phuketrichard

[MikeyIdea]

Not quite:

You wouldn't have needed the American marriage at all.

You sue for legitimization and custody if you are not legally married. If you can via birth certificate prove that you are the father, then you will eventually get sole custody regardless of if you married abroad or not if the mother doesn't show up. I still say the same: You got the parental rights automatically afterwards when you married the mother (according to Thai law) but that had practically no impact as no one knew. No police would ever act, no one would ever have cared about that American marriage certificate until it was formalised somehow

Or you can like in your case go to court to request divorce and you present a translation of an American marriage certificate certified at ministry of foreign affairs department of consular affairs. The court then knows that by legally marrying the mother abroad, legitimization and shared custody is already taken care of, according to Thai law. The court still has to deal with the divorce and future arrangements for the child. A divorce proceeding in Thailand always has something about the future arrangements for the child. I think that is mandatory but I actually don't know. It would be foolish (toward the child) for the parents to divorce and not formalise arrangements for their child. If you sued for divorce, and got sole custody for free at the same time - Let me guess: You had possession of the child for some time before the divorce, you took care of her and the mother had no contact with the child. I would think that would have helped the judges decision. I have never heard of a case like this before so I am not sure about this part. Could it also have mattered that you requested sole custody? Which I think you did. Or did you at least raise concern about needing the missing mothers signature in the future? There got to be something making it good for the child that you got sole custody - Juvenile court will not remove a mothers custody unless it is good for the child. The mother didn't bother to show up so you got it, in the best interest of the child. I see it as the court would have ordered shared custody and father takes care of the child if there hadn't been something making the judges decide that it was better for the child to remove the mothers custody. Decision was taken in the best interest of the child

The word formalise I use... Perhaps I should use another word but I can't think of a better one actually. You are right Peter. Your marriage was never formalised at the amphur and yet the divorce was formalised. The court formalised the marriage and annulled it at the same time. So amphur is not the only place where a foreign marriage can be formalised, a court can also do it.

I don't agree, I still think that a foreign marriage cerificate has no value until it has been formalised. 2 places to do it though, amphur or court. I admit there I was wrong

We very much agree on that Thai Juvenile court always look at the best interest of the child, that is reassuring

Addition:

You write: She enters and leaves Thailand on her thai passport and then travels on her US passport. Never any trouble and this has been the way since she was 2 years old.

I have left Thailand with my daughter, 2 passports, and immigration demanded birth cerificate. I would not have been allowed through without it had I not been able to show that the mother already had passed immigration in the Thai queue. That is what happened to me. I think demanding the birth certificate is as stupid as you think it is. Still it happened to me. I am sure that Thailand, as always, don't have 100% uniform rules

Edited June 18, 2010 by MikeyIdea