Is it rape / sexual assault?

[FruitPudding]

Contraception is both party's responsibilty, particularly condoms which are single use only, and used at the point of sex (unlike the pill).

 

She had as much responsibilty as him to ensure a condom is on correctly each time they had sex.

[RJRS1301]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:06 AM, impulse said:

Ask Julian Assange what he thinks... 

 

I'll bet he wishes he'd put his on.

 

According to both women, he had initially had a condom on, but removed it during the action.

Stealthing. Becomes rape in some countries

[RJRS1301]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:02 PM, Berkshire said:

Interesting question.  I actually read about this recently.  This act appears to be common enough that it even have a name...."stealthing."  Young men in America were doing it for kicks.  It would appear that many jurisdictions are grappling with the idea of making it criminal.  Like Singapore....

 

[The second reading of the bill is set for this coming May, and when it becomes law, Singapore will be the first country in Asia where the act of stealthing is against the law.]

https://www.vice.com/en_asia/article/8xy5vb/singapore-is-about-to-make-stealthing-illegal

 

Apparently it's already illegal in Germany...

 

[A German police officer has been found guilty of sexual assault for removing a condom during sexual intercourse without the consent of his partner, an act known as "stealthing," in what is believed to be the first case of its kind to be prosecuted in Germany.]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/20/health/stealthing-germany-sexual-assault-scli-intl/index.html

 

But it would seem to be very much a he-said/she-said sort of thing.  How can a woman prove that he did it without her consent?  It's hard enough to prove rape, and now we have a "sex without a condom" crime.  Wonder if it will ever come to Thailand?  I can imagine that if this act is tied to some kind of payoff, it will encourage women to report it whether true or not.  Anyways.....    

 

If you knowingly expose a person to an STI you can be prosecuted in some countries.

If you transmit an STI you can also face jail terms, fines. and or counselling

 

[Berkshire]

On 4/21/2019 at 12:59 AM, GrumblesMcGee said:

Here's one to consider. It might read like a joke at first, but give it some thought...

 

A man and a woman meet. They get to know each other. They agree to date. They have sex. The woman then discovers that the man lied the whole time. He said he was a single medical student looking for a long-term relationship, but it turned out he was a married bartender who was using her for a fling.

 

Is it rape? Sexual assault? A lesser crime of "trickery?"

 

I'm not being entirely facetious here. This sort of emotional deception can be devastating. And on some level, the woman never agreed to have sex with that man. She agreed to have sex with a single doctor looking for a relationship.

 

Good point.  There was a case in Thailand awhile back where a Thai woman was complaining to the American Consulate that an American man had promised to marry her if she had sex with him.  Well she did and he reneged.  There was nothing the woman could do.

 

I can think of so many cases that could be classified as "trickery," but should it be criminal?  Say a GF tells her BF that she's on the pill so he doesn't have to use a condom.  Well she wasn't and she gets pregnant.  Is that criminal "trickery?"  Or a guy promises to "pull out" but doesn't.  Or a guy says he's 45 yrs old but is really 55.  Or a girl says her breast are real but are really fake.  I can go on and on.  To make everything criminal would just be ridiculous and pointless. 

[Berkshire]

1 minute ago, RJRS1301 said:

On 4/18/2019 at 1:02 PM, Berkshire said:

Interesting question.  I actually read about this recently.  This act appears to be common enough that it even have a name...."stealthing."  Young men in America were doing it for kicks.  It would appear that many jurisdictions are grappling with the idea of making it criminal.  Like Singapore....

 

[The second reading of the bill is set for this coming May, and when it becomes law, Singapore will be the first country in Asia where the act of stealthing is against the law.]

https://www.vice.com/en_asia/article/8xy5vb/singapore-is-about-to-make-stealthing-illegal

 

Apparently it's already illegal in Germany...

 

[A German police officer has been found guilty of sexual assault for removing a condom during sexual intercourse without the consent of his partner, an act known as "stealthing," in what is believed to be the first case of its kind to be prosecuted in Germany.]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/20/health/stealthing-germany-sexual-assault-scli-intl/index.html

 

But it would seem to be very much a he-said/she-said sort of thing.  How can a woman prove that he did it without her consent?  It's hard enough to prove rape, and now we have a "sex without a condom" crime.  Wonder if it will ever come to Thailand?  I can imagine that if this act is tied to some kind of payoff, it will encourage women to report it whether true or not.  Anyways.....    

 

If you knowingly expose a person to an STI you can be prosecuted in some countries.

If you transmit an STI you can also face jail terms, fines. and or counselling

Yes, I get that...although the operative word is "knowingly."  Regardless, it's not the same as being prosecuted for "stealthing."  So if a guy is totally clean and takes off his condom, should he still be prosecuted? 

[RJRS1301]

4 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Yes, I get that...although the operative word is "knowingly."  Regardless, it's not the same as being prosecuted for "stealthing."  So if a guy is totally clean and takes off his condom, should he still be prosecuted? 

In some countries it is a criminal offence that is why Assange was facing extradition to Sweden

[Berkshire]

7 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

In some countries it is a criminal offence that is why Assange was facing extradition to Sweden

I'm not familiar with Assange's case, but I listed a couple of countries in my previous post where it is or will be.  Regardless, in most countries around the world, stealthing is not a criminal offense.   

[AlexRich]

Yes, you're definitely a rapist.

[RJRS1301]

11 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

I'm not familiar with Assange's case, but I listed a couple of countries in my previous post where it is or will be.  Regardless, in most countries around the world, stealthing is not a criminal offense.   

If the person consents to sex with use of condoms, then the condom is removed, then that is NOT informed consent given to sex, so it becomes an offence in some jurisdictions, as INFORMED consent has not been given to not use condoms.

It comes down to INFORMED consent.