EU says it is ready to launch U.S. trade talks, but without agriculture

[Chomper Higgot]

14 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

I'm not a Brexiteer, but I have a problem with that.  To get a sense of why, replace "traditional farming" with "traditional medicine".  

 

I don't understand why people continue to romanticize farming methods of yesteryear.  Thirty percent of the population worked as laborers earning a pittance, weeding was done by hand, farmers dumped lead and arsenic compounds on their crops, lest pests devour half their yield.  And did you ever try hand-milking a cow?  Granted I was only a teenagwer at the time, but my hands cramped up after the third teet.  

 

If there is any place where we need technology and modernization to realize the economies of scale that are going to efficiently feed ten billion people, it's on the farm.

 

 

 

 

I know you have a problem with that Attrayant, but you are not one of the millions of people living in farming communities across the EU who have skin in the game and a vote they use to ensure their interests are kept at the forefront of EU policy. 

 

When the topic comes up we can get into the future of farming and how to feed ten billion people, but that isn't the topic under discussion. 

 

[attrayant]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

you are not one of the millions of people living in farming communities across the EU who have skin in the game and a vote they use to ensure their interests are kept at the forefront of EU policy.

 

 

My point is that their interests are quaint but misguided, and may actually lead to malnourishment of those who can least afford to be picky about farming 'tradition'.  This is true whether I have a vote or not.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

My point is that their interests are quaint but misguided, and may actually lead to malnourishment of those who can least afford to be picky about farming 'tradition'.  This is true whether I have a vote or not.

You are inserting a conclusion based on your own points of view.

 

I understand you are impatient to have a discussion where you can defend your view of the agriculture sector and where you believe it should go. 

 

In the context of this discussion, the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities. 

 

But it is also much more than that.

 

I, and many others, are partial to regional foods that are protected under EU regulations. The US has always had a problem with the EU's protection of 'Origin' designations. 

 

The US are absolutely bent on getting rid of these designations which they regard as protectionist. 

 

That has nothing to do with feeding billions and everything to do with the balance between protecting local farming communities or protecting the profits of big business. 

 

I look forward to this future discussion when it arrises. 

 

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You are inserting a conclusion based on your own points of view.

 

I understand you are impatient to have a discussion where you can defend your view of the agriculture sector and where you believe it should go. 

 

In the context of this discussion, the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities. 

 

But it is also much more than that.

 

I, and many others, are partial to regional foods that are protected under EU regulations. The US has always had a problem with the EU's protection of 'Origin' designations. 

 

The US are absolutely bent on getting rid of these designations which they regard as protectionist. 

 

That has nothing to do with feeding billions and everything to do with

the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities. 

 

I look forward to this future discussion when it arrises. 

 

"the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities."

 

"That has nothing to do with feeding billions and everything to do with the balance between protecting local farming communities or protecting the profits of big business"

 

And yet, brit. farming has mostly (AFAIK) been sold to big business....

 

CAP was a good idea, handled very badly IMO.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Having said this, I seem to recall that the eu passed a requirement that foods containing GMO products should be labelled as such?

 

Surely the same could apply to US products?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Having said this, I seem to recall that the eu passed a requirement that foods containing GMO products should be labelled as such?

 

Surely the same could apply to US products?

One of the US contentions is that it should not. 

 

I like the EU view.

 

If you or I want to know what it is we eating we have a right to know what it is we are eating. 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities."

 

"That has nothing to do with feeding billions and everything to do with the balance between protecting local farming communities or protecting the profits of big business"

 

And yet, brit. farming has mostly (AFAIK) been sold to big business....

 

CAP was a good idea, handled very badly IMO.

 

 

 

 

The reason British farming has to such a large extent been sold to big business is largely down to UK internal policies and in no small part to the influence of supermarkets on the farming industry. 

 

By example, have a look at the impact of supermarkets on the price of milk at the farm gate and how that drives small farms out of business. 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/0f8b584c-9a36-11e4-9602-00144feabdc0

 

Another example of how UK internal policy/laws have an impact is the fishing industry (An industry that Brexit promised to return), in truth most UK fishing rights have been sold by the British owners of those rights for profit to themselves and as a financial asset to the buyers. The control of fishing rights is not a matter of 'Sovereignty' but one of property rights and how the UK law deals with property rights. 

 

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

 

[dick dasterdly]

I can't read the FT article, and the Greenpeace article points out that brit. fishing has also been sold out to big business?

[attrayant]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Having said this, I seem to recall that the eu passed a requirement that foods containing GMO products should be labelled as such?

 

Nobody replied to this statement when you posted it on page one because it has nothing to do with the topic.  Suffice it to say that labels are confusing and most people don't understand them.  A recent poll found 80% support labeling of food that contain DNA, for chrissakes.  If such idiocy actually became a law, almost every single item in a supermarket would require such a label.

 

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Surely the same could apply to US products?

 

Country of origin labeling is nice to have if you want to show off your wealth and privilege, but not very useful if you're pinching pennies (or whatever they call them in the EU) and trying to feed a starving family.  The EU can do whatever it pleases, but I don't see the point of more labels.

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You are inserting a conclusion based on your own points of view.

 

No I am not.  I am speaking purely from a scientific and humanitarian standpoint, much as I would do about climate change.  The fact is that very little of the Earth's surface is arable, and there is little that can be done using "traditional" farming methods to feed an ever increasing population.  Farmers are going to have to rely on technology and efficiencies of scale if they don't want people to go hungry and start wars over food and water.

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I understand you are impatient to have a discussion where you can defend your view of the agriculture sector and where you believe it should go.

 

So impatient that I waited till page 5 to post.

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

In the context of this discussion, the CAP and EU farming/food policy is very largely influenced by people wishing to protect traditional farming, traditional ways of life and their local farming communities.

 

I get that, and that protectionism is unsustainable and based on some romanticized idea of what farming "should be" in the eyes of the privileged consumer.

 

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But it is also much more than that.

 

 

I'm not interested in the "much more than that" part, which is why I refrained from commenting on it.

[tlandtday]

19 hours ago, bristolboy said:

They know it just the way Trump "knows" it. Just like he knows all of his 9000 plus publicly recorded falsehoods are true. That fact is that tariffs between the EU and the US range from mostly very low to nonexistent. The big 2 are automobiles and agriculture. In automobiles the US levies a 25 percent tariff on sports utility vehicles, known as the "chicken tax" from the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

Sports utility vehicles are by far the biggest sector of the consumer auto market. Currently they account for 35 percent of the passenger car market in the US and are projected to jump to 50 percent by 2020.

https://qz.com/1344537/by-2020-suvs-could-make-up-50-of-us-car-sales/

 

People in the EU better wake up and figure quickly that it is China that will give them the trouble not the USA.  All that high end medical equipment, planes, etc. will soon be copied and reproduced in China.  It's already planned.  Trump is making a stand. Please wake up.

[welovesundaysatspace]

 

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

Country of origin labeling is nice to have if you want to show off your wealth and privilege, but not very useful if you're pinching pennies (or whatever they call them in the EU) and trying to feed a starving family. 

Because the right thing to do when you’re pinching pennies is to throw garbage food in your stomach so you end up with a nice big medical bill when a few years later. It’s exactly for the less well-off and less educated that we need easy to understand labels. Those that have money normally also have the education to check and understand a more complex label. 

 

 

[bomber]

55 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

People in the EU better wake up and figure quickly that it is China that will give them the trouble not the USA.  All that high end medical equipment, planes, etc. will soon be copied and reproduced in China.  It's already planned.  Trump is making a stand. Please wake up.

the uk,us or the eu cannot stop china,its too late now,same as we couldnt stop the Jap car/electronics producers in the 60s/70s,trump is fighting a losing battle and wont win,fair play to the guy for trying but it will eventually get to the pint where it causes more harm than good to the US,since he started the trade gap has widened which says it all,brexiteers who think the UK can just start making everything herself and survive are living on another planet.

[mikebike]

2 hours ago, attrayant said:

...there is little that can be done using "traditional" farming methods to feed an ever increasing population. 

I think you are conflating tradition farming technology with traditional farming structure. Modern technology, used at the family farm/cooperative levels WOULD provide more than enough to feed an ever-increasing pop and is much preferable to corporate agri-business.

[candide]

1 hour ago, tlandtday said:

People in the EU better wake up and figure quickly that it is China that will give them the trouble not the USA.  All that high end medical equipment, planes, etc. will soon be copied and reproduced in China.  It's already planned.  Trump is making a stand. Please wake up.

I agree with your assessment of China. However, the current situation is the outcome of the incompetence of the POTUS, not the reverese. It would have been more efficient if Trump had initiated a coordinated initiative with the EU against China instead of starting a trade war with the EU.

 

On top of it, as the trade war with China is a complete failure, he will likely pull down his pants again during the current negotiations with China.

[Chomper Higgot]

58 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

Because the right thing to do when you’re pinching pennies is to throw garbage food in your stomach so you end up with a nice big medical bill when a few years later. It’s exactly for the less well-off and less educated that we need easy to understand labels. Those that have money normally also have the education to check and understand a more complex label. 

 

 

It’s even more basic than that.

 

Attrayant seems not to understand the fundamental right to know what it is we are eating.

 

The reason why the GM food patent holders don’t want labelling is because they do not want consumers to be allowed to make an informed choice to eat or not eat GM products.

 

Essentially eat what you are given and don’t ask questions.

 

Utterly disgusting!

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I can't read the FT article, and the Greenpeace article points out that brit. fishing has also been sold out to big business?

Which is the point I made.

 

The application of UK property law is what enabled this to happen. It’s is UK property rights issue.

 

The UK food industry problems are largely attributable to UK based causes.

[Dumbastheycome]

On 4/16/2019 at 12:22 PM, Snow Leopard said:

Go TRUMP. 

If  only  he would !

[Chomper Higgot]

Rather than preventing people from knowing what they are eating, let’s fix this:

 

http://www.fao.org/food-loss-and-food-waste/en/

[AAArdvark]

On 4/16/2019 at 12:04 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

The EU, even without UK is big and smart enough to hold their own. Remember we should thank them for protecting us from having to eat poorly regulated US rubbish food. Look at the obesity problem in the US, and the associated massive burden of obesity related diabetes on their health services, which is predicted to bankrupt our own health service in the next 20 years. Life expectancy in the US is the same as Cuba, and less than Chile. Three cheers for the French heroes who burnt down the first Macdonalds in France!

While your statements about the poor diet in the US may be true, that has zero to do with tariffs.  

[AAArdvark]

This is simple, does one side or the other have an advantage with the current tariffs (in total)?  If so, negotiation is in order. 

[candide]

14 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

While your statements about the poor diet in the US may be true, that has zero to do with tariffs.  

My understanding is that non-tariff barriers are the key issue in trade negotiations. It is not so much about tariffs, which are already low anyway. It is more about the sanitary and quality standards applied to allow the sales of agricultural products.

[Guest]

It's kind of funny that EU is one of the very large entities, which actually can start a trade negotiations with the mighty USA and say out loud 'Agricultural products are off the negotiation table'.

 

That's using power in a good way. Nobody should be using the hormone meat, USA is using. It has already made them nuts. 

 

Good luck UK with your negotiations ????

[Prissana Pescud]

On 4/17/2019 at 8:42 AM, bristolboy said:

I guess it depends if those low prices are due to honest competition or because of subsidies from the nation producing those products. Subsidies can vanish.

You are correct of course. Protectionism is foolish as long as a free trade is both fair and free. 

China in the past has "dumped" goods such as steel. Not sure what they are up to now.

[attrayant]

23 hours ago, oilinki said:

That's using power in a good way. Nobody should be using the hormone meat, USA is using.

 

 

Can you tell me what "the hormone meat" is?  

[bomber]

i cannot possibly see what food the EU sell the US,a bit like what can the UK possibly sell the EU after brexit

[aright]

26 minutes ago, bomber said:

i cannot possibly see what food the EU sell the US,a bit like what can the UK possibly sell the EU after brexit

For starters 650000 tons of fish.

[bomber]

2 hours ago, aright said:

For starters 650000 tons of fish.

fish live in the ocean and are plucked out of the sea at will... another BS lie used by farage and co to convince folks like you that brexit was a good idea,as the saying does in the UK "you never see a poor farmer" or maybe less so "a poor fisherman" dont forget about uncle sam aint going to save us 1941 style from brexit,he wants his own US is king dream,wake up when your ready,alone means alone

[Nigel Garvie]

19 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

Can you tell me what "the hormone meat" is?  

Cattle (Mainly) that have given large quantities of hormones that makes them grow bigger and faster, also antibiotics. Neither of these things do we want 2nd hand in human bodies.

 

14 hours ago, aright said:

For starters 650000 tons of fish.

We are in danger of perpetuating the myth that this is all about the welfare of our noble hardworking fishermen. Another Brexit myth in fact. Virtually the entire UK fishing fleet and associated quotas belongs to 5 families. It is their welfare the rich leaders of Brexit are thinking about, as usual they don't ACTUALLY give a sh#t about the ordinary working man, who is just a tool in their hands.

[aright]

25 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

We are in danger of perpetuating the myth that this is all about the welfare of our noble hardworking fishermen. Another Brexit myth in fact. Virtually the entire UK fishing fleet and associated quotas belongs to 5 families. It is their welfare the rich leaders of Brexit are thinking about, as usual they don't ACTUALLY give a sh#t about the ordinary working man, who is just a tool in their hands.

The issue is not how many families control the quotas it's much broader than that.

Commercial fishing in the UK creates employment and income for fishermen and their families which support thousands of the small businesses that are important to coastal communities.

No doubt if you lived in Germany you would be complaining car manufacture is controlled by 3 companies to the detriment of car workers

If capitalism is not your thing other systems are available. Try Jeremy Corbyn at the next election.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, aright said:

The issue is not how many families control the quotas it's much broader than that.

Commercial fishing in the UK creates employment and income for fishermen and their families which support thousands of the small businesses that are important to coastal communities.

No doubt if you lived in Germany you would be complaining car manufacture is controlled by 3 companies to the detriment of car workers

If capitalism is not your thing other systems are available. Try Jeremy Corbyn at the next election.

You need to read up on who owns the quotas and where the fish caught under those quotas are landed.