One Of Thailand's Unresolved Mysteries

[sutnyod]

Hi,

I have seen them again in the streets. They appear in groups, everyone equipped with a stack of photographs. If they shove it under your nose, have a good look: it's nicely draped bodies (human). When I saw those guys first I thought it's kind of a demonstration (shooting among prisoners?). I just wondered, why they called me "muffin". (Hey! You! Muffin!).

Turns out those guys are apparently coffin peddlars. What an idea! Selling coffins on Bangkok's streets. If they would stand in front of a hospital I would think they got some customers alright. But no, they are on Silom, on Sukhumvit, on Rajada.... Who of the passers-by would be in need of a coffin? It's a mystery how those guys make money....

[ThaiGoon]

I'm not sure if my experience was the same as yours, but mine was a group of people asking others to donate money so they could buy coffins for the unclaimed corpses. My mom always gives money to them. I did it once too. It was a great feeling. She told me that it was a great thing to do to help those corpses get coffins of their own. I always believe this group of people who walk around and ask for donation for this cause are from a charity organization. Perhaps they were the same group of people that you encountered. I think you might probably have not understood what they were saying. They weren't trying to rip people off.

Edited March 7, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

By the way, it's pretty common that some corpses that have been gathered by a charity organization like "Por Tek Tung" never got claimed by any of their relatives. So that organization has to find funding for the coffins. I'm pretty sure that's what those "coffin peddlars" were.

[ColPyat]

I'm not sure if my experience was the same as yours, but mine was a group of people asking others to donate money so they could buy coffins for the unclaimed corpses. My mom always gives money to them. I did it once too. It was a great feeling. She told me that it was a great thing to do to help those corpses get coffins of their own. I always believe this group of people who walk around and ask for donation for this cause are from a charity organization. Perhaps they were the same group of people that you encountered. I think you might probably have not understood what they were saying. They weren't trying to rip people off.

Your mom shouldn't give money to them, and you shouldn't feel great to give money to them.

These people asking for donations at people's doors are fake rescue organizations set up to swindle people. They have often been exposed in the medias as such. If you want to feel good you should give money to the real organizations, such as here in Bangkok the Por Teck Tueng or the Ruamkatanyu, or in the provinces the many other Thai Chinese foundations. These organizations do not solicit donations at people's houses, they are strictly forbidden to do that.

You have to go to their headquarters, and make a donation there. Or, go and visit the local group, ask them what they need, and buy it for them. Do not though make financial contributions, this is not allowed. You could for example buy medical equipment, equipment for their cars, foot their bill for fuel, etc.

[ThaiGoon]

Your mom shouldn't give money to them, and you shouldn't feel great to give money to them.

These people asking for donations at people's doors are fake rescue organizations set up to swindle people. They have often been exposed in the medias as such. If you want to feel good you should give money to the real organizations, such as here in Bangkok the Por Teck Tueng or the Ruamkatanyu, or in the provinces the many other Thai Chinese foundations. These organizations do not solicit donations at people's houses, they are strictly forbidden to do that.

You have to go to their headquarters, and make a donation there. Or, go and visit the local group, ask them what they need, and buy it for them. Do not though make financial contributions, this is not allowed. You could for example buy medical equipment, equipment for their cars, foot their bill for fuel, etc.

Interesting. I'll talk to my mom about this, and see what she thinks.

[ColPyat]

Interesting. I'll talk to my mom about this, and see what she thinks.

Many Thais themselves do not know about the Thai Chinese foundations for care of unclaimed corpses and rescue. It's very confusing. Even though i have been for more than 6 years with the Por Teck Tueng, and have visited many upcountry foundations at their 'Ngan Lang Batcha' (ask your mum about that, this is really fascinating!) there is still more that i don't know than i know.

As to the fake outfits - they are very convincing. Sometimes they even carry a real life smelly corpse with them in the back of their truck, they have uniforms, signs, and official looking receipts for donations.

The real foundations are working together with the authorities, they have official permission for duties such as rescue, care of unclaimed corpses, disaster relief, helping the poor, etc.

[sceadugenga]

I'm not sure if my experience was the same as yours, but mine was a group of people asking others to donate money so they could buy coffins for the unclaimed corpses. My mom always gives money to them. I did it once too. It was a great feeling. She told me that it was a great thing to do to help those corpses get coffins of their own. I always believe this group of people who walk around and ask for donation for this cause are from a charity organization. Perhaps they were the same group of people that you encountered. I think you might probably have not understood what they were saying. They weren't trying to rip people off.

Your mom shouldn't give money to them, and you shouldn't feel great to give money to them.

These people asking for donations at people's doors are fake rescue organizations set up to swindle people. They have often been exposed in the medias as such. If you want to feel good you should give money to the real organizations, such as here in Bangkok the Por Teck Tueng or the Ruamkatanyu, or in the provinces the many other Thai Chinese foundations. These organizations do not solicit donations at people's houses, they are strictly forbidden to do that.

You have to go to their headquarters, and make a donation there. Or, go and visit the local group, ask them what they need, and buy it for them. Do not though make financial contributions, this is not allowed. You could for example buy medical equipment, equipment for their cars, foot their bill for fuel, etc.

Well said ColPyat, dodgy charities are a major problem here. I saw off a couple of teenage "monks" soliciting alms from tourists last month.

[leisurely]

I am feeling left out now, never been asked to buy a coffin for anyone. Although, slightly off topic, the soi next to ours has a coffin and funeral accoutrements shop in it. We were driving past and one of my girls asked if she could have a new toy box. Can't blame her, there were some very pretty pink and gold numbers

[sutnyod]

Thanks everyone! Man, I would have not thought that those guys are collecting contributions for coffins. In Thai they just shouted "Hib Sop", that's why I thought they are selling.

Special thanks to ColPyat, that was good information. However, it was not clear from your replies whether the contributions collected by these inofficial funeral entrepreneurs actually DO go for the intended purpose or not. Well, I can think of the answer; how else could they afford to place a four-five people or more in the streets? And who knows how many groups there are operating...

[webbew]

Very interesting. I ran into a guy who was supposedly taking donations for tsunami victims on Soi 4 the last time I was in Bangkok. He had pictures but I didn't even look at them. Probably a good thing I didn't. Might have spoiled my appetite.

I donated about 100 baht. Don't know if the guy was for real or not, but I have to admit that if it was a swindle, the coffins for corpses idea takes the cake on ways to try to part us falang from our money.

Edited March 7, 2007 by webbew

[November Rain]

ColPyat, I've been to a temple in BKK where they had many photos of accident victims on the walls & many cheap coffins. You gave a donation & got a slip of paper that was then stuck on the coffin, purportedly for poor or destitute accident victims like the ones photographed. Was this legit, or a con? I completely believed it & did donate.

[ColPyat]

ColPyat, I've been to a temple in BKK where they had many photos of accident victims on the walls & many cheap coffins. You gave a donation & got a slip of paper that was then stuck on the coffin, purportedly for poor or destitute accident victims like the ones photographed. Was this legit, or a con? I completely believed it & did donate.

That was most likely Wat Hualompong at Rama 4 Rd., where the headquarters of the Ruamkatanyu foundation is located. Yes, absolutely legit, and above board.

The other main foundation in Bangkok is the Por Teck Tueng, their headquarters is in Prapachai in Chinatown.

[November Rain]

Thanks very much. Glad the money did go where it was supposed to.

BTW, I have the greatest admiration for you & what you do. My father committed suicide in a rather messy way in BKK four years ago, and there's every likelihood that your organisation or another similar one took him. Thank you.

[dave111223]

Interesting as i thought the normal Thai tradition was cremation, or am i wrong?

[ColPyat]

Thanks very much. Glad the money did go where it was supposed to.

BTW, I have the greatest admiration for you & what you do. My father committed suicide in a rather messy way in BKK four years ago, and there's every likelihood that your organisation or another similar one took him. Thank you.

I am only sort of unofficially running along, no uniform or badge. But often i am giving a hand, carrying corpses, or injured, and trying to calm them down, and stuff like that.

Suicides are always very sad affairs, for everybody involved. Dunno what else i can say, it must have been a terrible experience.

Sometimes people are put off when they see rescue workers, and whoever else is around, joking and such. But this is just a way to cope.

I think everybody has his own problem zones. Against most things one can manage to build a shell.

My problem zones are not dead people, but heavy car accidents in which the injured are still alive and conscious.

This is nightmarish, people stuck in their cars for a long time, in tremendous pain, and you know that most likely their bones are very badly broken, when you finally managed to pull them out. This is really really bad, especially the pulling out part, where you cannot avoid hurting them even further, and what comes out there is often beyond description.

Anyhow, being around with the rescue services is a great opportunity to get very unusual insights into a part of Thailand that otherwise is very difficult to get access to. From gangland to police and the multitude of volunteer organizations and militias here in Thailand that very few outsiders know much about, and how it all interconnects in very complex social webs.

Unfortunately it also results in being flamed to bits and pieces on internet web boards for posting views that many don't want to hear or believe ...

[ColPyat]

Interesting as i thought the normal Thai tradition was cremation, or am i wrong?

No, you are not wrong.

But even in funerals coffins are used. Poor can ask for simple free coffins at the Thai Chinese foundations here, which are financed by donations.

Unclaimed corpses are buried at the grave yards of the foundations, and every 15 or 20 years they are given a collective funeral. And more often than not there are also several unclaimed farang corpses part of those festivals.

[dave111223]

Interesting as i thought the normal Thai tradition was cremation, or am i wrong?

No, you are not wrong.

But even in funerals coffins are used. Poor can ask for simple free coffins at the Thai Chinese foundations here, which are financed by donations.

Unclaimed corpses are buried at the grave yards of the foundations, and every 15 or 20 years they are given a collective funeral. And more often than not there are also several unclaimed farang corpses part of those festivals.

Seems a bit of waste to buy a coffin only for it to be cremated without any real cerimony or anyone (who cared) in attendance...

My Option: sometimes people should be a bit more pragmatic...

There are alot better things you could put your money towards

[ColPyat]

Seems a bit of waste to buy a coffin only for it to be cremated without any real cerimony or anyone (who cared) in attendance...

My Option: sometimes people should be a bit more pragmatic...

There are alot better things you could put your money towards

The most efficient way of getting rid of corpses was proposed in Harry Harrison's SF novel 'Make Room, Make Room!', and the movie version 'Soylent Green'. I doubt though that this would be a viable alternative.

But, funerals and burials are everywhere expensive, in the west as well. People need ritual.

[pampal]

Interesting as i thought the normal Thai tradition was cremation, or am i wrong?

No, you are not wrong.

But even in funerals coffins are used. Poor can ask for simple free coffins at the Thai Chinese foundations here, which are financed by donations.

Unclaimed corpses are buried at the grave yards of the foundations, and every 15 or 20 years they are given a collective funeral. And more often than not there are also several unclaimed farang corpses part of those festivals.

Seems a bit of waste to buy a coffin only for it to be cremated without any real cerimony or anyone (who cared) in attendance...

My Option: sometimes people should be a bit more pragmatic...

There are alot better things you could put your money towards

I have a question, if ppl are cremated, what is the burial?

are the ashes buried?

[sutnyod]

are the ashes buried?

No, the ashes are normally collected by the relatives (I think in the case of unclaimed corpses it would be monks). To be precise, it's not even ashes, but bone fragments. They are washed, perfumed and put in white textile bundles. Then those bundles are kept in niches in the pagoda wall, or in special Thats (little stupas).

[Couthy]

My ex missus used to go down to some charitable foundation around Hualampong to buy a coffin now and then, for, as she would say, "The poor people".

And of course to bring her / us good fortune.

Must have worked - got her permission to stay in UK and promptly divorced me!.

[November Rain]

They can also be placed in/scattered over water. In both my father's & boyfriend's cases this is what happened. My father's bundle was lowered into the Chao Phraya river & my boyfriend (who died in HH) had his bones/ashes scattered over the sea. In both cases we took a boat trip out to deep water. In both cases, we had some of the fragments put into a small metal casket/urn. My mother has my father's one & I have my boyfriend's (in our houses). I give flowers & light candles & incense sticks etc for him.

Edit: This is in response to post #20

Edited March 8, 2007 by November Rain

[sutnyod]

@ColPyat,

I virtually grew up with the concept of "tai houng". How does this fit to the (obvious) practice of keeping bodies around for an extended period of time? I would think that those poor people actually did suffer a "tai houng" and that this would be clear to the Thai workers employed in such organizations. No irrational fears here?

Seems a bit of waste to buy a coffin only for it to be cremated without any real cerimony or anyone (who cared) in attendance...

My Option: sometimes people should be a bit more pragmatic...

There are alot better things you could put your money towards

Dave, go to Vietnam.

People there seem to think along the same line. The body is first buried in a rice field and only after decomposition (fertilization of fields) are the bones collected, cleaned and properly put in a graveyard. It's a strange sight to see green rice fields with lots of white markers in them...

[ColPyat]

@ColPyat,

I virtually grew up with the concept of "tai houng". How does this fit to the (obvious) practice of keeping bodies around for an extended period of time? I would think that those poor people actually did suffer a "tai houng" and that this would be clear to the Thai workers employed in such organizations. No irrational fears here?

Suicide is maybe the worst imaginable "Dtaai Hoong", and most other unclaimed corpses and sudden forms of death are definitely as well. Most volunteers and and employees of the foundations are of course aware of this, but most are either not overly scared, or feel that their act of "Tam Bun" offsets the malevolent spirits.

During the "Ngan Lang Batcha" special Chinese "Pa Yan" (i always forget the Chinese name) are made by the trained mediums, carrying the "Mai Song" and being partly possessed by the protective deities. These Pa Yan protect against any malevolent spirits and other entities found at these grave yards. I have a rather large collection of those, some very rare ones as well.

Mostly new volunteers are tested a bit as well, they are made to sit in the back of the truck with a corpse, or ordered to help the yellow clad employees to transport a corpse to the morgue. Which is rather shocking the first time, especially for people who have been brought up with concepts of "Dtaai Hoong" and such. But such a shock treatment is necessary, for that sort of work people can't be sqeemish.

Edited March 10, 2007 by ColPyat

[bina]

a thai worker here a few years ago had a brother come out to work here in israel. his brother tragically died in his sleep the day after his arrival . we all think # that it was due to the long flight syndrome since the thai workers sit and dont move for the whole flight (fear of flying, not used to it,e tc). after id'ing the body in abu kabir (the morgue for autopsies etc)and ruling out foul play, the body was shipped back to thailand.

two years later, his body was still in the wat in the muu baan. the family was waiting for the 'right' time to do the burial or cremation and tambon which the monks would decide when. how they kept the body i dont know but the decision was because the cause of death was 'unknown' (illness/etc).

# not really sure to this day why he died since P. never really understood the explanation he was given by the interpreter.

this same man showed me (in the two year later visit) his father's bones; not in a bundle, but in an empty glass nescafe coffee container!!! they were mixed in with an uncle's bones. he told me (P., not the dead uncle ) that the brother's bones will be put there also so all the family stays together. the glass jar was in the outer wall of the wat. this was in udon thani.

we wanted to give this man P. seven days of paid mourning leave as jewish custom and israeli law dictates. he refused. he went straight back to work and though we (his co workers) attemtped to give some kind of condolence etc, he didnt seem to want or need it. he just put himself more into his work, if not a bit more quiet (usually used to sing to himself while working) then usual. when i asked him about this, he just pointed out that thai people are different then us. (his comment). he was also a strong buddhist, no smoking drinking etc etc...he repeatedly told me that he has to 'take care of things for himself, only he could help himself deal with it'. and that was that.

he also didnt believe in ghosts and such.