DMK Crackdown?

[JimSaints]

19 hours ago, SicTransit said:

A report by a new user taken from god knows which FB page. Mmmm. Sounds about credible as an amazing life story told by your bar stool buddy full of Chang.

Well, I was at DMK at that time and it was mayhem with people getting refused entry. The OP is trying to give people a chance to avoid DMK as the FB Group "Thai Visa Advice" stopped comments after just 1 comment … Wonder why but I guess they don't like negative true description of whats going on !

[jmd8800]

It would be in everybody's best interest to read the answer given here about USA's 10 year B visa. Thailand's actions are not far off from the USA's.

 

https://www.quora.com/How-many-times-can-I-visit-the-US-on-a-B2-visa

 

In fact one answer mentions that there was a pretty high rate of abuse of the visa by people trying to work that US Immigration 'closed the loophole'.

 

Excerpt from article:

 

"But a long stay always raises questions, like why would you stay away from your home country for 6month , can't be for tourism, so you better have convincing reasons to stay for long duration."

 

Thailand's actions are not lawless and Thai IOs are not seeking to extract every last baht you have as some here would lead you to believe. As far as I can see comparing Thailand's enforcement of immigration rules in this case mirrors what the USA does.

 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Agreed on this - if my wife wasn't Thai, I'd be living in Vietnam - but I'd miss the Thai people and culture.  Too bad a clique within immigration is working so hard to undermine the interests of the Thai people.

Me Too

If my 7 year old son wasn't Thai, I'd be living in Vietnam or Cambodia.

[Traubert]

Out of curiosity, even though I'm very unlikely to fall foul of any of this I went and had a look. I uncovered this from the Thai MFA:

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15405-General-information.html

 

Clause 10 says this:

 

The authority to permit entry and stay in Thailand, however, is with the immigration officers.  In some cases, the immigration officer may not permit foreigner holding a valid visa entry into Thailand should the immigration officer find reason to believe that he or she falls into the category of aliens prohibited from entering Thailand under the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).

 

Now that gives them an awful lot of power, and it further breaks down into 11 different categories which will lead to a refusal. Can you prove your smallpox inoculation? Are you going to let the Immigration Doctor vaccinate you on the spot? Can you prove your mental health? Can you prove you aren't coming to be involved in prostitution?

 

No, neither can they, so I'd guess as a catch all, they're probably using 12 (2). It's vague enough to be unproveable. There's nothing anyone can do about it. They are perfectly entitled under the above regulation to hoof you out on a whim. There's no illegality about it and there's nothing you can do.

[Briggsy]

20 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

Sounds made up for me tbh...

Trust me. It is not made up. Many, many denials of entry for visa exempt, SETV and METV at Don Meuang and Suwannaphum.

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, Traubert said:

Out of curiosity, even though I'm very unlikely to fall foul of any of this I went and had a look. I uncovered this from the Thai MFA:

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15405-General-information.html

 

Clause 10 says this:

 

The authority to permit entry and stay in Thailand, however, is with the immigration officers.  In some cases, the immigration officer may not permit foreigner holding a valid visa entry into Thailand should the immigration officer find reason to believe that he or she falls into the category of aliens prohibited from entering Thailand under the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).

 

Now that gives them an awful lot of power, and it further breaks down into 11 different categories which will lead to a refusal. Can you prove your smallpox inoculation? Are you going to let the Immigration Doctor vaccinate you on the spot? Can you prove your mental health? Can you prove you aren't coming to be involved in prostitution?

 

No, neither can they, so I'd guess as a catch all, they're probably using 12 (2). It's vague enough to be unproveable. There's nothing anyone can do about it. They are perfectly entitled under the above regulation to hoof you out on a whim. There's no illegality about it and there's nothing you can do.

The MFA is pointing out that the immigration officials can (actually should) deny entry for the reasons given in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. That has been true for 40 years. The problem is immigration officials taking Section 12 (2) and twisting it into supposedly giving officials full discretion to deny entry to anyone they wish. That was never the intention of those who drafted the Immigration Act. Indeed, they were careful only to give full discretion to allow or deny entry to the Minister.

 

Whether twisting Section 12 (2) to give themselves power never granted them under the Immigration Act is "illegal" depends (as ever in third world countries) on whether the authorities take any action. In my view it is not "right". If they want Thailand's laws to be more in line with those in some other country, they should change the law, or at least issue public police orders that make clear the new rules under which the officials are operating. 

[Thaidream]

6 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

There is no requirement to state how long you plan to stay in Thailand on the TM6 card.

I find it rather odd that anyone who has 500K to give to Thai Elite can obtain a 5 year tourist Visa which is what the PE Visa actually is and that long term tourists who obviously have the means to travel and  pay for hotels and food are rejected out of hand with statements like - too many entries; In Thailand too long etc.

 

There is absolutely no difference in a Thai Elite traveller and a person on several Tourist Visas per year except one thing 500K up front.  The person on the Elite Visa could be working; could  have a very low monthly income but apparently 500K buys  a whole lot of exceptions.    Kind of like using an agent for a retirement extension or marriage extension.

[cerox]

I left at BKK airport yesterday morning at around 5 a.m. (immigration). It was completely empty with two other people leaving. I was surprised but it might just be the early time and others fly later.

 

Immigration Officer was female and friendly. No issues, no questions. I got questioned before when leaving - this time was easy.

[SicTransit]

It would be in everybody's best interest to read the answer given here about USA's 10 year B visa. Thailand's actions are not far off from the USA's.

Totally justified. I’m sure there’s just as many people willing to work for US wages on US soil as there are westerners dying to live on a 30000 baht undocumented teacher salary in Pattaya with no social security or zero chance of ever becoming a resident of this prosperous country.

[jmd8800]

2 hours ago, SicTransit said:

 

Totally justified. I’m sure there’s just as many people willing to work for US wages on US soil as there are westerners dying to live on a 30000 baht undocumented teacher salary in Pattaya with no social security or zero chance of ever becoming a resident of this prosperous country.

A year before I retired and moved to Thailand a new kid was hired at my workplace. He told me he had been living in Phuket for the past 3 years but that he was arrested and had to leave. I asked why and he said he was working in a call center illegally. I smiled and asked how much he made. He said average of 25,000USD per year over 3 years. He also told me that when he went to Thailand he had no intention of staying. But the money, sex and party was so good he thought why leave?

 

[madmitch]

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I find it rather odd that anyone who has 500K to give to Thai Elite can obtain a 5 year tourist Visa which is what the PE Visa actually is and that long term tourists who obviously have the means to travel and  pay for hotels and food are rejected out of hand with statements like - too many entries; In Thailand too long etc.

 

There is absolutely no difference in a Thai Elite traveller and a person on several Tourist Visas per year except one thing 500K up front.  The person on the Elite Visa could be working; could  have a very low monthly income but apparently 500K buys  a whole lot of exceptions.    Kind of like using an agent for a retirement extension or marriage extension.

I think you've effectively provided the answer to your conundrum: it's all about money and upfront money is the best!

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

A year before I retired and moved to Thailand a new kid was hired at my workplace. He told me he had been living in Phuket for the past 3 years but that he was arrested and had to leave. I asked why and he said he was working in a call center illegally. I smiled and asked how much he made. He said average of 25,000USD per year over 3 years. He also told me that when he went to Thailand he had no intention of staying. But the money, sex and party was so good he thought why leave?

 

I know people who made much more than that when those boiler room operations (errr sorry, call centres) were in full swing. It depended on how good you were at conning people out of their life savings. I am sure the kid could have made more as a drug mule though the risks would have been higher.

[bergan]

On 4/30/2019 at 5:17 PM, SicTransit said:

A report by a new user taken from god knows which FB page. Mmmm. Sounds about credible as an amazing life story told by your bar stool buddy full of Chang.

At least he's full of Chang and not full of shit, then, unless he's both.

[jmd8800]

27 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I know people who made much more than that when those boiler room operations (errr sorry, call centres) were in full swing. It depended on how good you were at conning people out of their life savings. I am sure the kid could have made more as a drug mule though the risks would have been higher.

Correct. And how many call centers do you see being busted in the news over the period of a year? 4 or 5?? So Thai Imm is within its bounds to screen people as there are plenty of lucrative jobs here that fly under the radar. Just like the USA.

[lkv]

23 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

And how many call centers do you see being busted in the news over the period of a year? 4 or 5?? 

The farangs doing that are mostly not in Thailand anymore, they are populating the streets of Phnom Pehn etc. If you look at all the busts from 2014-15 onwards, it's mostly Chinese doing their own nationals.

 

So perhaps they should screen those better....but....oops.

Edited May 1, 2019 by lkv

[BritTim]

26 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Correct. And how many call centers do you see being busted in the news over the period of a year? 4 or 5?? So Thai Imm is within its bounds to screen people as there are plenty of lucrative jobs here that fly under the radar. Just like the USA.

The boiler room operations do seem to have been dealt with by the Thai authorities. At least, I no longer run into people who work in them, and I think they have now moved on to other countries. Jobs in regular call centres do not command salaries anywhere near US$25,000 a year, even now, and certainly did not ten years ago, the period I think you were referring to.

Edited May 1, 2019 by BritTim

[humbug]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I find it rather odd that anyone who has 500K to give to Thai Elite can obtain a 5 year tourist Visa which is what the PE Visa actually is and that long term tourists who obviously have the means to travel and  pay for hotels and food are rejected out of hand with statements like - too many entries; In Thailand too long etc.

 

There is absolutely no difference in a Thai Elite traveller and a person on several Tourist Visas per year except one thing 500K up front.  The person on the Elite Visa could be working; could  have a very low monthly income but apparently 500K buys  a whole lot of exceptions.    Kind of like using an agent for a retirement extension or marriage extension.

you use alot of usernames to disrespect 1000's of visa holders of elite, i think most people have more savvy ways to see the difference between a short term tourist visa and a 5 year visa, hell the 20 year elite in this present climate can be called the new retirement visa, but calling people poor or working illegally in any visa outside of a work permit is really disrespecting many more visa holders than elite, what is your visa?

[lkn]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

There is absolutely no difference in a Thai Elite traveller and a person on several Tourist Visas per year except one thing 500K up front

There is the very obvious difference that one of them spent money on a visa that allows staying long-term.

 

Putting a limit on how long tourists can stay in your country is not unique to Thailand. For example a Schengen visa is limited to 180 days per year.

 

It seems that Thailand is enforcing something similar, what may frustrate some is that it is not explicitly stated, presumably because they do allow many “tourists” to stay more than 6 months per year without obtaining “proper” 1+ year visas (or extensions), but the message has been clear for years now: If you want to stay long-term in Thailand, you cannot do so using the visa on arrival / visa waiver system, and you are not guaranteed to be allowed to do it on a METV either.

 

It would however be interesting to hear from people rejected when using a METV, because the (new) requirement that this visa can only be obtained in your home country seems to be designed to weed out the poorer tourists by putting in a financial obstacle (international plane tickets) rather than put a specific limit on the number of visas per year.

 

Edit: And as for METV in your home country: Different countries have different requirements, but many countries require proof of significant funds (i.e. bank statement with minimum balance), employment, etc.

Edited May 1, 2019 by lkn

[jmd8800]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

The farangs doing that are mostly not in Thailand anymore, they are populating the streets of Phnom Pehn etc. If you look at all the busts from 2014-15 onwards, it's mostly Chinese doing their own nationals.

 

So perhaps they should screen those better....but....oops.

Working illegally is not limited to call centers. Clamping down on foreigners with back to back visa issues is not limited to farang.

[lkv]

30 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Working illegally is not limited to call centers. Clamping down on foreigners with back to back visa issues is not limited to farang.

Yes, I am so glad they made Thailand safer.

 

Btw, in Pattaya it costs 5K every 3 months as far as Immigration is concerned, to be issued with ED extensions with no questions asked.

Edited May 1, 2019 by lkv

[BritTim]

40 minutes ago, lkn said:

It would however be interesting to hear from people rejected when using a METV, because the (new) requirement that this visa can only be obtained in your home country seems to be designed to weed out the poorer tourists by putting in a financial obstacle (international plane tickets) rather than put a specific limit on the number of visas per year.

I would be interested in understanding why they bother changing the requirements for issuing tourist visas at all, given the fact that whether or not you have a tourist visa is now meaningless. The decision on whether you are entitled to enter Thailand as a tourist is no longer being made by the consulates ensuring you are qualified, but is made by the immigration officials when you enter the country.

[brewsterbudgen]

There is a 'Length of Stay' Box, are you suggesting to leave it empty?

I do, as I live here.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[lkn]

1 hour ago, BritTim said:

I would be interested in understanding why they bother changing the requirements for issuing tourist visas at all, given the fact that whether or not you have a tourist visa is now meaningless. The decision on whether you are entitled to enter Thailand as a tourist is no longer being made by the consulates ensuring you are qualified, but is made by the immigration officials when you enter the country.

You assume that people with METV are rejected at random.

 

I have seen no evidence of this being the case.

[SicTransit]

9 hours ago, JimSaints said:

Well, I was at DMK at that time and it was mayhem with people getting refused entry. The OP is trying to give people a chance to avoid DMK as the FB Group "Thai Visa Advice" stopped comments after just 1 comment … Wonder why but I guess they don't like negative true description of whats going on !

 

Could you please clarify how did you know all those people were being denied entry? In case of a refusal and subsequent removal from the country, people aren't just being told to turn 180 degrees and get back to where they came from, it's a more complicated procedure, involving arrangement of tickets out. It usually does not happen in front of the rest of the audience waiting to be stamped in.

 

I also don't see a huge number of international arrivals at DMK that would be passing through immigration at 1AM on that day, apart from Singapore, Hong Kong and Macau flights, barely your visa running destinations, and a flight from Phnom Penh, which arrived before 23:40 and most likely would've passed the immigration by that time

 

Pardon my questioning, but I've seen quite a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) being spread lately and I'm pretty sure we don't need more of that.

[NCC1701A]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:56 PM, onera1961 said:

cant escape the lure of cheap sex with young girls and subject themselves to humiliation to inhale smog and smell stinky sois in an authoritarian country.

yeah!

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

You assume that people with METV are rejected at random.

No, I will accept that some criteria (albeit unknown) are being applied. What I am saying is that possession of an METV no longer ensures that immigration will treat you as a tourist if, at their sole discretion, they decide you were erroneously issued your visa.

[lkv]

57 minutes ago, SicTransit said:

 

Could you please clarify how did you know all those people were being denied entry? In case of a refusal and subsequent removal from the country, people aren't just being told to turn 180 degrees and get back to where they came from, it's a more complicated procedure, involving arrangement of tickets out. It usually does not happen in front of the rest of the audience waiting to be stamped in.

 

I also don't see a huge number of international arrivals at DMK that would be passing through immigration at 1AM on that day, apart from Singapore, Hong Kong and Macau flights, barely your visa running destinations, and a flight from Phnom Penh, which arrived before 23:40 and most likely would've passed the immigration by that time

 

Pardon my questioning, but I've seen quite a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) being spread lately and I'm pretty sure we don't need more of that.

Yeah, when you start disecting it, it does not stick, does it?

 

So the OP joined Sunday (new member), his first post was an extract from a post on the Thai Visa Advice Facebook group, to tell us what happens to other people supposedly (not his experience).

 

The "other people" means a Facebook "person" called Naka-Lee Baraka (????), that has a flower on his profile and no other data.

 

This is to add on what previous posters have commented.

Edited May 1, 2019 by lkv

[lkn]

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

No, I will accept that some criteria (albeit unknown) are being applied. What I am saying is that possession of an METV no longer ensures that immigration will treat you as a tourist if, at their sole discretion, they decide you were erroneously issued your visa.

While true that a METV is no guarantee for entry into the Kingdom of Thailand, and that is actually being stated by some Thai consulates abroad, we still lack firsthand evidence/knowledge of someone being rejected on a METV, and the reasoning given for this rejection.

 

The rejections I have heard about was either due to lack of funds (unable to produce 10,000 baht in cash) and suspected of working in Thailand, but these were people who did border runs (with no METV).

[TroyC]

Just landed at DMK a couple of hours ago. The queue for immigration was very short, took only 20 minutes to wait. In the last 12 months i have had one VE, 2 tourist visas, and entered today on an METV. Did not even get questioned by the IO, was bricking myself after reading all the recent comments regarding DMK, but it actually felt more relaxed today than my last entry thru Swampy.

[Peterbilt]

1 hour ago, TroyC said:

Just landed at DMK a couple of hours ago. The queue for immigration was very short, took only 20 minutes to wait. In the last 12 months i have had one VE, 2 tourist visas, and entered today on an METV. Did not even get questioned by the IO, was bricking myself after reading all the recent comments regarding DMK, but it actually felt more relaxed today than my last entry thru Swampy.

Would be nice to know where the 2 SETV and the METV had been issued. May be there's a connection between the country where the TVs have been issued and the chances of denial at DMK or BKK.