Is there a technical or legal reason that Thai Immigration won't accept electronic bank records from other countries (specifically the US, im my case)?

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

Doubtful.

 

Just saying, how do you know what the officer "understood"? This was "years ago"? Just one time?

 

It was all mumbo-jumbo to them, and just because they nodding doesn't mean they understood. Suspect they just took the embassy affidavit as documentation and were maybe just being nice asking about the back up. Then you got overly effusive.

 

I used the U.S. Embassy affidavit ~ 5 years running, never once asked for back-up (even though I had it in hand). 

 

ATM cards or slips are hardly proof of income stated on an affidavit.

I have been dealing with Immigration since 1971 at both CW and the old Suan Plu Office.  I am well aware what the officer said- he spoke perfect English and I could understand his comments in thai.  He clearly asked me for documentation regarding what I stated on the Affadavit.

 

Since I always carry documentation in which I highlight what needs to be looked at and since the Officer could read English- he knew exactly what to look for. There was no doubt in my mind.  I never offer added information but when it is asked for I provide it.

 

I never said ATM cards or slips proved  Income- However, when the IO asked how I receive my funds in Thailand- I showed him the ATM cards.  

 

I have probably done 30 extensions of stay and I was never asked except one time to 'prove' what I have stated on my Affidavit.  

 

Don't ever believe that a Thai Immigration Officer cannot communicate in English or read what you are presenting but I can believe that you could not understand what they were saying in Thai.

 

 

 

 

 

[mtls2005]

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

but I can believe that you could not understand what they were saying in Thai.

 

Roger that. 

 

Understanding English is vastly different than reading comprehension. Maybe you just got that one special immigration officer, in thirty extensions, well versed in American financial instruments and documentation.

 

Still doubtful, but fret not, no amount of embellishments will convince me.

 

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

he spoke perfect English

Embellishment. "Perfect" had to be added. Why? What the heck does "perfect" mean?

 

Let me guess, you're an English teacher too. Drat.

 

38 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Don't ever believe that a Thai Immigration Officer cannot communicate in English or read what you are presenting

 

Communicating? Sure. Reading? Maybe. Understanding financial documents? Meh. And I believe in Bigfoot.

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by mtls2005

[dcnx]

6 hours ago, pizzachang said:

Why would anyone fabricate such easily available information. This is not even mentioning the official letters provided by the SS Admin, stating that the person HAS a pension and the Federal 1099's , the official letter showing a State pension. As I stated bank records are easily obtainable and the norm for proof in any legal proceeding (in the USA) If a non 0 person wants to hide income source because of illegal activity, couldn't they just pay "Speedi Visa" to provide cover? As I stated, I understand the requirement "in a Thai bank" , I just wonder why there is a difference. If the difference is the lack of English language skill, I can understand that as well. It seems that the origin of the funds is easily provable by means other than having a "Thai bank" foreign deposit code. The funds withdrawn from an ATM are electronically recorded as to the origin of the funds.

Because Thailand. Get used to it if you’re new here. Nothing makes sense. Put your money in a Thai bank and kowtow your way into submission like a good boy. It’s a privilege to be in their presence.

 

On a serious note, Thai documents can be forged just as easily as foreign documents so that’s an invalid argument. 

 

The real answer is, because Thailand.

[dcnx]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The argument you have stated makes perfect sense.  In fact, years ago when I presented an Embassy Letter, I was asked to prove the amount I had stated was my income-

 

I showed  a Letter from Social Security and my Military pension Letter in which the amounts matched the Embassy Letter.

 

I also showed a copy of my US Bank statement- showing the direct deposits and the amounts. Figures matched.

 

The officer asked how I accessed the funds from Thailand and I showed 4 ATM cards from the US.

 

The Officer had no issue understanding any of the documents nor the bank statement. 

 

While  I suppose any document could be forged- I seriously doubt anyone could forge 4 ATM cards with the same imprints and numbers that match the bank statements .  I also had the ATM slips which matched the ATM cards and were also posted on the bank summary. He didn't need these.

 

Could Thai Immigration use these documents today-  They could and they would be as close to foolproof as necessary.

 

The reason they won't accept them is because as Ubon Joe stated-  The police order indicates the money has to be transferred to a Thai Bank Account.  However, if one can get an Embassy Letter- that is all that will be needed.

 

 

Farmers with hammers and immigration officers with stamps.

 

Same same but different.

[KhunFred]

Yes, because they do what they damn well please and those who don't like it are invited to leave by both Thai Immigration and their loyal group of acolytes at the Thai Visa Forum. Does that answer your question?????????

[Kurtf]

I firmly believe that Thailand is going out of its way to make American Ex-pats unwelcome. They keep coming up with more and more hoops to jump through.

[Thaidream]

19 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

Understanding English is vastly different than reading comprehension. Maybe you just got that one special immigration officer, in thirty extensions, well versed in American financial instruments and documentation.

 

Still doubtful, but fret not, no matter of embellishments will convince me.

You apparently have not had much interaction with Thai officials such as Immigration or others who are educated.  Most are quite shy about communicating in English but they will when necessary.

You can doubt me all you want-  but when I presented  my social security letter and military award letter- he could see exactly the same amounts were listed as on the Embassy Letter.

 

The bank statement was even easier- find direct deposits- look at the amount and it also matched the other amounts.

 

I wish they would accept this documentation now- much easier to read and proves income.  Having 65K in a Thai bank proves you have 65K- it doesn't prove anyone has a sustainable income stream/

 

I never taught English, but when a non native English speaker can communicate in the English language without error it sounds pretty good to me.  These officials are not fluent nor am I in Thai, but most that I have met can communicate quite well when necessary and can comprehend written English.

[jkcjag]

…not just foreign banks. I've found that even electronically printed statements from Thai banks are not acceptable. On more than one occasion I have had to physically go to my Thai bank branch and request them to print 6 months of statements, with their letter heading (which does not show on the ones printed from their website), and in one case a bank officer needed to stamp certified, and sign, a document to then send electronically to another branch of the same bank to verify funds.

[mtls2005]

31 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Having 65K in a Thai bank proves you have 65K- it doesn't prove anyone has a sustainable income stream/

 

There is no requirement that the income is guaranteed, sustainable, delivered in perpetuity. We're granted a 12-month future extension for stay, based on our previous 12-month income. No clue where folks get this idea that the income needs to be guaranteed for eons.

 

33 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You can doubt me all you want-  but when I presented  my social security letter and military award letter- he could see exactly the same amounts were listed as on the Embassy Letter.

This sounds questionable. The Embassy affidavit listed one single monthly figure in USD. Your SSA and Mil. letters would be separate, so the IO would need to sum them. Maybe you mean that the sum of the two, perhaps divided by 12, less tax withheld matched?

 

36 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

when a non native English speaker can communicate in the English language without error it sounds pretty good to me. 

OK, "pretty good" is more believable than "perfect". It's the needless embellishments that are one tell of prevarication

 

36 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The bank statement was even easier- find direct deposits- look at the amount and it also matched the other amounts.

So past monthly bank statements, were matched to future benefits, which were matched to 1099s, which were matched to the Embassy affidavit?

 

Hopefully, you brought a green eyeshade for the officer.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You apparently have not had much interaction with Thai officials such as Immigration or others who are educated.

This seems unduly insulting to the Thai education system. I assume all IO's are university graduates, and perhaps have to pass some sort of rigorous entry tests (unless there's a family member sponsoring their appointment). I would hope that they are all educated. Just not in foreign forensic accounting, and languages other than Thai and Thinglish.

 

[kokesaat]

8 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

It's not for immigration to verify documents or electronic copies of documents from every country in the world, across multiple time zones and in multiple languages. As the applicant it is for you to provide the required proof of funds in a Thai bank. Your documents might be easy to verify, however there is one rule for everyone including you.

 

Immigration can check the authenticity of a Thai bank statement with one phone call, within minutes, and they can be sure the answer they receive from the bank is correct.

If my bank gave someone, 'claiming' to be Thai immigration, my bank info over the phone, it'd no longer be my bank.

[blackcab]

15 minutes ago, kokesaat said:

If my bank gave someone, 'claiming' to be Thai immigration, my bank info over the phone, it'd no longer be my bank.

 

I think you will find that immigration and the banks have a specific point of contact who deal with each other on a regular basis.

 

If immigration did check, and the bank didn't divulge any information whatsoever the result would be you wouldn't get an extension of stay until the query was resolved at your next appearance.

[pizzachang]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Respect for the pizza oven.

Not new here and my op was rhetorical in that I'm quite interested in the subject. Not new here but have only done 10 previous 1 year marriage extensions. The rule change caught me by surprise (Has there been 12 months elapsed since the new rule was instituted?) Previously I used US Consulate affidavit letter and ATM's.  As I said, any legitimate applicant could easily prove source and disposition of pension funds, arguments to the contrary are lacking. The only reason, that I can see is the part of the rule that says "A Thai bank".  IMO this is arbitrary and not necessary for source and dispositions but then I'm not in charge of the rules or their interpretation.  I thoroughly enjoy making the best home made pizza. 

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

The rule change caught me by surprise (Has there been 12 months elapsed since the new rule was instituted?)

It was announced by the embassy in October of last year.

I posted a topic about it after getting a STEP email from the embassy.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

There is no requirement that the income is guaranteed, sustainable, delivered in perpetuity. We're granted a 12-month future extension for stay, based on our previous 12-month income. No clue where folks get this idea that the income needs to be guaranteed for eons

If you want to continue to doubt my experience and in essence  call me less than an honest reporter of an experience that I had- you go right ahead.  I actually don't care what you think .  You have a very narrow view of Thailand and the Thai people- but it is your right to have an opinion.    I would appreciate if you also allow me to have an opinion.

[Suradit69]

12 hours ago, pizzachang said:

n the USA, electronic bank records are routinely used in courts of law, in fact many banks don't even send these records by mail but have switched to electronic data. 

Would a court in the US routinely accept electronic bank records from Thailand with incidental commentary written in Thai?

 

How about from  China or Afghanistan or North Korea?

 

I expect there would at least be some healthy skepticism  and/or a requirement for an official certified translation and some verification from the supposed originating bank. 

 

When I recently sent documents to my broker in the US, my identity and the documents had to be accompanied by confirmation/certification from and an affidavit stamped by the US embassy in Bangkok.

 

I'm not sure why the laws regarding documents accepted by courts in the US are necessarily the standard for everyone else to follow anyway. I'm sure there are quite a few counties that manage to cobble together their own laws without deference or submission to America. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Suradit69

[Dave Sabino]

11 hours ago, Gumballl said:

Take my input to the extreme. Any document that you present to an IO in Thailand can be fabricated, even those that are with a letterhead from some supposedly reputable US agency/department. Same can be said for US bank letterheads, and to repeat myself, ATM receipts.

 

P.S. I am not sure which "boat" you are in, whether single or married to a Thai, but I recommend that you deposit the required yearly amount all at once into a Thai bank, and while singing a tune, think of it as the admission fee to Disney Land. Don't ever withdraw this money; you'll need it the next year.

That's a classic will have to remember that one. ????

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I'm not sure why the laws regarding documents accepted by courts in the US are necessarily the standard for everyone else to follow anyway. I'm sure there are quite a few counties that manage to cobble together their own laws without deference or submission to America. 

Your point is well stated. the US is not the standard for the World.  In fact- Embassy letters from 80 Embassies except the  futile 3 are still accepted with no issue.  If  the Thai Immigration need docs translated they will accept them.

 

However, I still fail to understand why Thai immigration needs to have funds transferred to a Thai bank when i can go to a Thai aTM- get 65K in a few  transactions- deposit the funds in a Thai bank and show a consistent pattern of income of 65K per month backed up by Award Letters showing an income stream of the same.

 

While I have the income stream- the  system  to me is cumbersome. I have to call my bank in America each month- get a security code- then go online and do the transaction vis Swift- wait 5 days and I have the money, I can go to a Thai aTM and get the same amount in minutes with a receipt to match.

 

I also see no need to keep 800K in a Thai account for 5 months seasoning and then 400K forever.  If the purpose of the money in the bank is to assure money to support the applicant, this system  does not do that. One has to have added income brought into Thailand to support the applicant while his money is tied up in a Thai bank.

 

The best system is the Embassy letter- with each applicant going to the Embassy- showing documentation of income and the Embassy issuing a letter under Oath that the applicant told the truth. The applicants  documentation then supports the income letter and the Oath establishes a legal liability if the person lies.  Thai immigration- then selectively, asks the applicant for added proof.  Them embassy letter; the income transfer and the money in the bank then allows each applicant a way to meet the requirements.

 

The problem is that 3 Embassies refuse to comply while the other 80 have no problem issuing the letter.

[nickstav]

12 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

What are you wanting to prove with those statements showing a ATM withdrawal?

If wanting to prove your income for a extension of stay application the rules state you must show transfers from abroad into a Thai bank. 

 

Exactly

[DogNo1]

This horse is dead!

[blackcab]

An off topic post has been removed.

[pizzachang]

9 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

had to be accompanied by confirmation/certification from and an affidavit stamped by the US embassy in Bangkok

Yet, the Embassy somehow can't certify a Social Security pension?

[pizzachang]

9 hours ago, Thaidream said:

However, I still fail to understand why Thai immigration needs to have funds transferred to a Thai bank when i can go to a Thai aTM- get 65K in a few  transactions- deposit the funds in a Thai bank and show a consistent pattern of income of 65K per month backed up by Award Letters showing an income stream of the same.

Exactly my original point. Lots of posts about complying and not complaining.  Maybe the problem is our Consulate/Embassy...although I can not understand why only 3 Embassies can't issue an affidavit verifying a freaking Social Security pension!

[pizzachang]

10 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

I'm sure there are quite a few counties that manage to cobble together their own laws without deference or submission to America. 

Well, I actually agree with your statement. However, faking bank records is not much of a reason, since I could even use the computer belonging to the IO and open my banks secure home page, sign in and show that my funds came from a foreign source.  Some of the comments make me think permanent tattoos and rfid implants will be the only acceptable "proof".  In the age of electronic banking, records of any nation complying with international banking standards, should be "acceptable".  After all, you can go to any ATM in almost any country and access your funds right now, and the electronic record shows the source, origin and the location of disposition. This is the norm and expat pensioners faking bank accounts, doesn't seem like a real problem. I appreciate your comment and I really like Thailand, even after staying for 10 years.  

[jacko45k]

31 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

although I can not understand why only 3 Embassies can't issue an affidavit verifying a freaking Social Security pension!

I believe the issue is that an affidavit doesn't verify anything!

Thai Immigration wanted it truly verified and not to be accepting the word of a person, ie a simple declaration under oath. Thailand is a country where lying comes easy. Three (four initially) Embassies were quick to admit they could not do this and stopped their service. Your real question may be as to how all the rest were able to continue. Some truly had the means to verify 'pensions' and presumably did so, others just took the view what they had done previously was once acceptable and carried on. 

The 3 Embassies were perhaps looking for a reason to end this service anyhow and took the view that there were alternative options available to their citizens . 

Edited June 6, 2019 by jacko45k

[Thaidream]

9 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

This horse is dead!

I would not bet on that

[bkk6060]

10 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Your point is well stated. the US is not the standard for the World.  In fact- Embassy letters from 80 Embassies except the  futile 3 are still accepted with no issue.  If  the Thai Immigration need docs translated they will accept them.

 

However, I still fail to understand why Thai immigration needs to have funds transferred to a Thai bank when i can go to a Thai aTM- get 65K in a few  transactions- deposit the funds in a Thai bank and show a consistent pattern of income of 65K per month backed up by Award Letters showing an income stream of the same.

 

While I have the income stream- the  system  to me is cumbersome. I have to call my bank in America each month- get a security code- then go online and do the transaction vis Swift- wait 5 days and I have the money, I can go to a Thai aTM and get the same amount in minutes with a receipt to match.

 

I also see no need to keep 800K in a Thai account for 5 months seasoning and then 400K forever.  If the purpose of the money in the bank is to assure money to support the applicant, this system  does not do that. One has to have added income brought into Thailand to support the applicant while his money is tied up in a Thai bank.

 

The best system is the Embassy letter- with each applicant going to the Embassy- showing documentation of income and the Embassy issuing a letter under Oath that the applicant told the truth. The applicants  documentation then supports the income letter and the Oath establishes a legal liability if the person lies.  Thai immigration- then selectively, asks the applicant for added proof.  Them embassy letter; the income transfer and the money in the bank then allows each applicant a way to meet the requirements.

 

The problem is that 3 Embassies refuse to comply while the other 80 have no problem issuing the letter.

Because these are the new rules.

Being fixated on the old way and what you think should be done is a waste of time.

 

Also, on your US bank who is it?

I have Chase and do not call anyone everything on line have done this for years.

In fact, on the IAT requirements, I went into Chase last month and showed them the Bangkok Bank letter which stated the IAT would start June 1. They stated they would put an attachment on to my transfers to meet the BKK bank requirements.

Well, I guess it worked because I got my transfer in 2 days already this month.

It states "international transfer" which is what Thai immigration wants to see.

[Carib]

9 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

This horse is dead!

Pizzachang is trying resuscitation..

[GeorgeCross]

probably the same reason i can't use my thai electric bill as proof of residence to open a UK or offshore financial account.

 

wrong language, not even the same letters lol

 

 

[Nowisee]

To the OP:

It would be possible to submit a pension letter, year end bank statement and tax return to show proof of income.  It would be possible for the US consulate to verify that it's you (not the validity of the document) and it would be possible for immigration to accept it on faith.   
Not going to happen.
One can only imagine why and some will tell you why as if they know.

 

It's ironic that all immigration wanted to see was an affidavit from my consulate, all it verified was my name, they accepted it on faith.  I don't know when or why that started, but it proves incompetence on immigration as their directive at the time said proof of income.   That proof came in the way of a certified pension letter while apply for original visa at thai consulate in US.

 

Now they only want money in a thai bank.   

 

IF or once this (money in a thai bank AND proof of a thai insurance policy) becomes the directive at the thai embassy/consulate level in foreign countries, I personally think fewer people will be coming here on these types of visas and some people will not be renewing their extension of stay as a result of these policy changes.

[onera1961]

Take my input to the extreme. Any document that you present to an IO in Thailand can be fabricated, even those that are with a letterhead from some supposedly reputable US agency/department. Same can be said for US bank letterheads, and to repeat myself, ATM receipts.
 
P.S. I am not sure which "boat" you are in, whether single or married to a Thai, but I recommend that you deposit the required yearly amount all at once into a Thai bank, and while singing a tune, think of it as the admission fee to Disney Land. Don't ever withdraw this money; you'll need it the next year.

How is the agent system working? We will know the full picture in a few years. All said and done, if the system survives, which I strongly believe would exist in a few years, I would be a happy camper. If not bye bye to Thailand, Spain here I come.

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