Thais Lose Their Smile

[Artfullmover]

WELL gentlemen. There is only one thing to say.

The time has come to welcome these people of yesterdays "Third World" into our modern day world.

Where will most of us run to now. It looks "our" societies values have finaly caught onto the Thai's and influenced there culture.

Cant blame it on anyone as it is a step to "PROGRESSION" into the modern world.

Shame thought, I always wondered if we had adapted to some of the "THAI CULTURE' before we lost our values back here in the land of OZ how well our lives could be. ( The American Democracy policies system has sure has ripped our society apart). LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLD USA. (you guy have an OUTSTANDING foriegn policy, well for the rich and influencial anyway.

Oh well no use crying in spilt milk.

What are you trying to say? That it is America's fault that Thailand is not as happy as a year ago?

If you think that poverty breeds contentment, there is an entire continent that should provide you with enough happiness for several lifetimes. Most Thais would not want to abandon their material possessions any more than most Australians would- and it's not because the Americans taught them that. They are simply--- human. As people develop the means to provide themselves with more creature comforts they come to value those comforts. Nothing what soever to do with America. This abusrd notion that Thailand was poor but happy by choice - that people have to be seduced into preferring to drive a car over walking in the rain- gimme a break. They were poor because they had no choice. And for many, it hasn't changed a lot.

Well I guess you can read into what I said and get what have come up with.

The point I was trying to make is somewhat more complex than just poor versus material possessions.

[Brutiniero]

@Plus

Hmmmm, you know what?

Look for a poor (really poor) happy Thai family and give them all you have.

It might teach you (if you have quite something to give) how really happy Thais look like and you can experience how happy you can be with nothing.

You comments make me sick so!

[andook]

@Plus

Hmmmm, you know what?

Look for a poor (really poor) happy Thai family and give them all you have.

It might teach you (if you have quite something to give) how really happy Thais look like and you can experience how happy you can be with nothing.

You comments make me sick so!

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

[ColPyat]

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

Would you mind clarifying this, please?

I wonder though how many of the poor in Thailand deserve to be paid a pittance for their labor. How union leaders who try to improve the situation in Thailand deserve to be shot, so that only about 3% of the labors in Thailand are members in unions.

How do rural poor deserve to be evicted from their ancestral land because somebody decides to declare areas natural reserves that haven't seen forest cover since decades, while at the same time the rich and powerful can destroy primary forests with impunity?

How do the poor deserve government schools that are miserable, while they cannot afford even half decent schooling for their children?

The poverty in Thailand, given Thailand's natural wealth, is a pure creation of a unequal system for the benefit of the rich.

[andook]

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

Would you mind clarifying this, please?

I wonder though how many of the poor in Thailand deserve to be paid a pittance for their labor. How union leaders who try to improve the situation in Thailand deserve to be shot, so that only about 3% of the labors in Thailand are members in unions.

How do rural poor deserve to be evicted from their ancestral land because somebody decides to declare areas natural reserves that haven't seen forest cover since decades, while at the same time the rich and powerful can destroy primary forests with impunity?

How do the poor deserve government schools that are miserable, while they cannot afford even half decent schooling for their children?

The poverty in Thailand, given Thailand's natural wealth, is a pure creation of a unequal system for the benefit of the rich.

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

[ColPyat]

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

The problem though is that many of the governments that have been responsible for the worst excesses in Thai history have not been elected by the people, but came in because they had the biggest guns. In this sense, the saying about people get the governments they deserve does not exactly count.

One may think whatever one wants about Thaksin, but one thing though is clear, people upcountry elected him on his promises and policies on fighting poverty. Their chosen government though has been taken away from them by a concerted effort of the mainly wealthy and social conservative power networks of Thailand.

The problem here is, that resisting Bangkok interference into rural affairs means almost automatically a violent response of Bangkok. Yes, Bangkok can do so, because Bangkok has the guns, and has countless times shown that it is not afraid to use them on its own.

[andook]

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

The problem though is that many of the governments that have been responsible for the worst excesses in Thai history have not been elected by the people, but came in because they had the biggest guns. In this sense, the saying about people get the governments they deserve does not exactly count.

One may think whatever one wants about Thaksin, but one thing though is clear, people upcountry elected him on his promises and policies on fighting poverty. Their chosen government though has been taken away from them by a concerted effort of the mainly wealthy and social conservative power networks of Thailand.

The problem here is, that resisting Bangkok interference into rural affairs means almost automatically a violent response of Bangkok. Yes, Bangkok can do so, because Bangkok has the guns, and has countless times shown that it is not afraid to use them on its own.

Understood. Bangkok has shown just how brutal and cynical it really is whenever it is challenged. (youtube.com was recently censored by the MIT for having several Thai atrocities available for viewing). However, if the vast majority of poor rural people comprising the population of this country got organised and demanded more from Bangkok, instead of being a bovine, apathetic floating bloc of paid votes, then their voices would have to be heard. The will has to exist first.

[Brutiniero]

Well, at least I brought all of my brothers and sisters in law out of the country to Australia where they are working under good conditions.

You should have seen them and how the happieness went up.

Yes they are missing their country - but nobody wants to come back.

Uhmm last time the rural people tried to change something in Esarn things ended up in a bloody mess.

It is said that I have many ghost of the former communist solidiers on my land.

Never got robbed so

[ColPyat]

Understood. Bangkok has shown just how brutal and cynical it really is whenever it is challenged. (youtube.com was recently censored by the MIT for having several Thai atrocities available for viewing). However, if the vast majority of poor rural people comprising the population of this country got organised and demanded more from Bangkok, instead of being a bovine, apathetic floating bloc of paid votes, then their voices would have to be heard. The will has to exist first.

I believe that will happen in the not too distant future if Bangkok does not decide itself to do something about the absolutely unequal wealth and power distribution in Thailand. Blinding the masses with yellow shirts won't work forever.

The rise of TRT, regradless of how authoritarian and corrupt Thaksin was, was somehow a way how the previously unheard social classes attempted to voice their discontent through the ballot box, and their hopes for solution of issues. Thaksin, rightly or wrongly is debatable, represented many of these pressing issues. Mostly because he had to adress them to get elected, and no other established political party had in the recent decades addressed those issues in a substantial way.

I do hope that there will be very soon within the parliamentary system of democracy parties adressing those issues, otherwise i fear that those issues will be voiced in a way that is not peaceful.

There is a rather long history here of destroying every attempt of organizing the rural poor when it becomes a threat to the status quo. Be it by invention of tradition, and the founding of mass counter movements such as the village scouts, or by intimidation.

[andook]

Understood. Bangkok has shown just how brutal and cynical it really is whenever it is challenged. (youtube.com was recently censored by the MIT for having several Thai atrocities available for viewing). However, if the vast majority of poor rural people comprising the population of this country got organised and demanded more from Bangkok, instead of being a bovine, apathetic floating bloc of paid votes, then their voices would have to be heard. The will has to exist first.

I believe that will happen in the not too distant future if Bangkok does not decide itself to do something about the absolutely unequal wealth and power distribution in Thailand. Blinding the masses with yellow shirts won't work forever.

The rise of TRT, regradless of how authoritarian and corrupt Thaksin was, was somehow a way how the previously unheard social classes attempted to voice their discontent through the ballot box, and their hopes for solution of issues. Thaksin, rightly or wrongly is debatable, represented many of these pressing issues. Mostly because he had to adress them to get elected, and no other established political party had in the recent decades addressed those issues in a substantial way.

I do hope that there will be very soon within the parliamentary system of democracy parties adressing those issues, otherwise i fear that those issues will be voiced in a way that is not peaceful.

There is a rather long history here of destroying every attempt of organizing the rural poor when it becomes a threat to the status quo. Be it by invention of tradition, and the founding of mass counter movements such as the village scouts, or by intimidation.

Thaksin was as brutal as anyone before, but at least he was elected and served through his first term...

link:

[ColPyat]

Thaksin was as brutal as anyone before, but at least he was elected and served through his first term...

link:

No doubt about his disregard for human rights.

Nevertheless, one should not make the so common fallacy here regularly voiced on the boards, that Thaksin rule was monolithic, and that only he alone ordered the human rights violations. These, in fact were a concerted effort by all power networks in Thailand, along long established traditions here to counter real and perceived social threats with utter brutality.

[andook]

Thaksin was as brutal as anyone before, but at least he was elected and served through his first term...

link:

No doubt about his disregard for human rights.

Nevertheless, one should not make the so common fallacy here regularly voiced on the boards, that Thaksin rule was monolithic, and that only he alone ordered the human rights violations. These, in fact were a concerted effort by all power networks in Thailand, along long established traditions here to counter real and perceived social threats with utter brutality.

Yep. The Thai military isn't bloated and indulged / equipped purely for neighborhood watch. They really need reigning in, to serve the country before themselves. Thaksin's mistake was try to do things too quickly. Instead of waiting for these old fossils to die off.

[nick2k]

Understood. Bangkok has shown just how brutal and cynical it really is whenever it is challenged. (youtube.com was recently censored by the MIT for having several Thai atrocities available for viewing). However, if the vast majority of poor rural people comprising the population of this country got organised and demanded more from Bangkok, instead of being a bovine, apathetic floating bloc of paid votes, then their voices would have to be heard. The will has to exist first.

I believe that will happen in the not too distant future if Bangkok does not decide itself to do something about the absolutely unequal wealth and power distribution in Thailand. Blinding the masses with yellow shirts won't work forever.

The rise of TRT, regradless of how authoritarian and corrupt Thaksin was, was somehow a way how the previously unheard social classes attempted to voice their discontent through the ballot box, and their hopes for solution of issues. Thaksin, rightly or wrongly is debatable, represented many of these pressing issues. Mostly because he had to adress them to get elected, and no other established political party had in the recent decades addressed those issues in a substantial way.

I do hope that there will be very soon within the parliamentary system of democracy parties adressing those issues, otherwise i fear that those issues will be voiced in a way that is not peaceful.

There is a rather long history here of destroying every attempt of organizing the rural poor when it becomes a threat to the status quo. Be it by invention of tradition, and the founding of mass counter movements such as the village scouts, or by intimidation.

I think that people rich or poor in general wish happiness for their fellow man.

I believe the problems that occur between the rich and the poor occur when one or both parties start to blame one another for the other's problems. people get entrenched in wanting to destroy the other, and then proceed to do their utmost to accomplish so.

the secret to the success of both parties is when they both understand that there is a purpose for each in this universe.

without greed, there is no innovation. without mutual respect, there is no civilization.

in the last century whenever the poor tried to organize, they did so in a threatening manner to the rich. so, how do you think the rich should react to this manner of behavior? ..how would you react if someone blamed you for their sufferings yet don't accept any personal blame for their current state?

communism in the last century is not the path to utopia. let's face it, if the western nations didn't assist mainland china, china would still be a backward country like north korea, and cambodia are.

the key to the poor getting a share of the pie is to work with the rich. ..not as slaves, but as partners. each accepting the other. doing so with mutual respect.

quit blaming others for all your problems. start asking each other how to resolve the problems. get constructive. accept that nobody is perfect, and stop getting fixated by past problems. look to the future. work as one.

but of course, if you don't have the proper education that would empower your minds to analyse, to think, you will be just a bunch of rats running around not understanding what to do. killing one another to survive. believing that the annihilation of one will ensure the survival of your other.

the young have to stop looking at educate as a useless waste of time. realize that the most important benefit of education is not the accummulation of knowledge but the exercising of the mind.

quit the killing, quit the destroying, and most of all, quit the "blame game".

[thedude]

People consumed by envy will never be happy no matter what. Of course it's easier to succumb to envy if you have a lot less than others. And here I agree with Thedude again - people will be more content if they are kept with their own and Thai system is designed to keep people within their social boundaries.

Plus, i was so glad you said we agree on something until i discovered its because you misunderstand me. I was pointing out that the present reality makes it easy for those in power to eschew progress and to emphasize the merits of maintaining their somewhat feudal ideas of social order.

However I do not agree with it because i believe education, equality, social justice to be essential for progress in today's world, and any civilisation that fails to progress eventually loses out in the long run. Obviously, the people who choose not to progress are the same ones who stand to lose from change.

What has also emerged from the posts here is the issue of what constitutes happiness. If someone is ignorant (through the lack of education, or worse, through wrongful indoctrination) and therefore contented, does this truly constitute happiness? Perhaps. Happiness is absolute and personal. And this is a compelling argument the power elite wants to put forth. Even if indoctrination is wrong, they'd argue that ignorance is for their own good.

A poor family may be happy and contented because they are ignorant of their alternatives, and so long as they remain blissfully ignorant. But the reality of the world we live in means that no one can be truly isolated and ignorant. And in fact, Thai people do not live in jungles, and they are aware of alternatives. The powers that be then urge people to be self contented and not to desire so much. But you can't ask people to be contented anymore than you can ask foreigners to have confidence just by explaining the virtues of your policy. In the end, they can't escape the fact that they have to open up, they have to face competition, and they have to walk the hard yards, because progress is the only path to survival.

[Plus]

I understand very well that you don't like Thai solution - keeping people locked to their social status. It's the solution, nevertheless. It served them ok so far. Will it continue working in the future? Certainly not without some adjustments.

Happy poor are not necessarily ignorant of other choices, they just don't feel that they have been robbed, they don't feel like it's their god given right to drive Benzes like Bangkokians do, they don't want to stir up trouble and demand "their share", they are happy with their lot.

They've been taught to develop this attitude from a very young age, as part of the "culture" and "Buddhism".

This attitude is not restricted to Isan only - it's everywhere. I bet you yourself noticed that Thais aren't really interested in progress at all costs, if given a choice in a work situation they would not choose the "better" option, they'd choose an option that will face less resistance from their colleagues and their bosses. They don't care if it will cost the company some money later on, they want happy faces around them now. They sacrifice individual progress in favour of collective happiness.

People make fortunes writing books about this.

Isanese aren't the happiest people in the world, btw, (in fact Thailand always scores low in these happiness tests), they are just happier than Thais living in all other regions.

[Artfullmover]

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

Would you mind clarifying this, please?

I wonder though how many of the poor in Thailand deserve to be paid a pittance for their labor. How union leaders who try to improve the situation in Thailand deserve to be shot, so that only about 3% of the labors in Thailand are members in unions.

How do rural poor deserve to be evicted from their ancestral land because somebody decides to declare areas natural reserves that haven't seen forest cover since decades, while at the same time the rich and powerful can destroy primary forests with impunity?

How do the poor deserve government schools that are miserable, while they cannot afford even half decent schooling for their children?

The poverty in Thailand, given Thailand's natural wealth, is a pure creation of a unequal system for the benefit of the rich.

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

Dont quite Know were you got you famous quote from (you sick Nazi F@#$) but I really hope you dont mean that stuff about the boot getting licked.

I can accept most things that offend - But your statement is well beyond me. I prey you dont know Shit from clay because if you do, we may all be in big trouble if people in power are like you.

I'm glad you made this statement here because if I had a few drinks with someone and they came out with something like that .............. well you work it out.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Artfullmover

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Artfullmover,

I read the comment by 'andook' as implying that until the poor Thais stop accepting without question the inequalities imposed upon them by the rich, they won't be able to change a thing.

Overall, a very interesting debate to have read.

[Pepe']

"We don't as yet realize that life, all the things that we become infatuated with, like, desire and rejoice over, is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self. It is for this reason that we become infatuated with those things, liking them, desiring them, rejoicing over them, grasping at them and clinging to them."

Buddhasa biku

[ColPyat]

I understand very well that you don't like Thai solution - keeping people locked to their social status. It's the solution, nevertheless. It served them ok so far. Will it continue working in the future? Certainly not without some adjustments.

Happy poor are not necessarily ignorant of other choices, they just don't feel that they have been robbed, they don't feel like it's their god given right to drive Benzes like Bangkokians do, they don't want to stir up trouble and demand "their share", they are happy with their lot.

They've been taught to develop this attitude from a very young age, as part of the "culture" and "Buddhism".

This attitude is not restricted to Isan only - it's everywhere. I bet you yourself noticed that Thais aren't really interested in progress at all costs, if given a choice in a work situation they would not choose the "better" option, they'd choose an option that will face less resistance from their colleagues and their bosses. They don't care if it will cost the company some money later on, they want happy faces around them now. They sacrifice individual progress in favour of collective happiness.

People make fortunes writing books about this.

Isanese aren't the happiest people in the world, btw, (in fact Thailand always scores low in these happiness tests), they are just happier than Thais living in all other regions.

Served them OK so far????

Have you ever read about the political and social turmoil of the 70's? Have you ever thought about the amount of the labor leaders, social and democracy activists murdered to preserve the status quo?

But yes, it does need some serious adjustments, such as handing power over to the people, allow them to participate in the political process, and not have a military coup when things go against the interests of the powerful.

And as to the rest of your post, your "happy poor" - have you ever spend time upcountry, or in the slums with those happy poor, and actually tried to find out how they live, feel, think and what their hopes and dreams are?

Or are you one of those whose only contact with these "happy poor" is to be their boss, and who then believe they have the ability and knowledge to judge their entire lives because after you ordered them they will give you a subservient wai with the necessary smile?

[ColPyat]

"We don't as yet realize that life, all the things that we become infatuated with, like, desire and rejoice over, is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self. It is for this reason that we become infatuated with those things, liking them, desiring them, rejoicing over them, grasping at them and clinging to them."

Buddhasa biku

That doesn't help much when one does not have enough money to get adequate medical treatment, or afford proper education for the children, be at the whims of corrupt and powerful officials, does not have enough land to make a living and is forced to survive by day labor, and has to, in order to afford the bare minimum, leave his family alone for most of the year to work in conditions reminding of the ones Charles Dickens described.

Not everybody has the talent or choice to be a monk living in a temple supported by the community. Some people do actually have to marry and make children so that humanity can continue to exist, and has to work in order to support their families and these monks having lofty thoughts, as illusionary that may seem to the enlightened.

[hammered]

"We don't as yet realize that life, all the things that we become infatuated with, like, desire and rejoice over, is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not self. It is for this reason that we become infatuated with those things, liking them, desiring them, rejoicing over them, grasping at them and clinging to them."

Buddhasa biku

That doesn't help much when one does not have enough money to get adequate medical treatment, or afford proper education for the children, be at the whims of corrupt and powerful officials, does not have enough land to make a living and is forced to survive by day labor, and has to, in order to afford the bare minimum, leave his family alone for most of the year to work in conditions reminding of the ones Charles Dickens described.

Not everybody has the talent or choice to be a monk living in a temple supported by the community. Some people do actually have to marry and make children so that humanity can continue to exist, and has to work in order to support their families and these monks having lofty thoughts, as illusionary that may seem to the enlightened.

With all the contradictions within Thai society it does seem as if we are moving towards something ominous. The cracks are deepening but at the same time the nationalism that binds is getting stronger. In some ways the deteriorating situation in the south helps the Buddhist nationalism as the separatists are Muslims and hence outsiders. At the same time apart from the southern separatist situation there is also an even bigger divide (in general) between those that have and those that dont and that is in a country widely acknowledged to have one of the worst distributions of wealth in the world. But even within the poor-rich axis there are conundrums with many ultra-traditionalist poor supporting a status quo that keeps them poor and within the wealthy there even those who argue for change towards a fairer country. Then you have a middle class trying to keep their heads down while being attacked by all either for their lack of democratic ideals or for their profligate lifestyles and lack of traditional values. This may be a simplistic analysis but imho Thailand is lurching towards inevitable changes that may not go as smoothly as so many of us hope.

[ColPyat]

This may be a simplistic analysis but imho Thailand is lurching towards inevitable changes that may not go as smoothly as so many of us hope.

That's my opinion as well, and the opinion of most educated and uneducated independent thinkers i conversed with about this subject.

[axom_boy]

Who wants to be happy??

Is smile and happyness related?? Do you smile because you are happy?? maybe you smile because you don't want to loose face....maybe you smile because you are a braveheart!!

I would be happy (and smile all the time ) when I have enough resources with me to have what I want!! What I want might be defined by my value system!! you cant force it on me??

All the Chinese wants to do is to get rich at any cost (they even think of being rich in afterlife!!) thats there value system....so when they are not rich they are NOT happy!!

I think most thai's have moved on from their traditional Buddhist beliefs of sufficiency and embraced a more Chinese inspired philosophy!!

[thedude]

Who wants to be happy??

Is smile and happyness related?? Do you smile because you are happy?? maybe you smile because you don't want to loose face....maybe you smile because you are a braveheart!!

I would be happy (and smile all the time ) when I have enough resources with me to have what I want!! What I want might be defined by my value system!! you cant force it on me??

All the Chinese wants to do is to get rich at any cost (they even think of being rich in afterlife!!) thats there value system....so when they are not rich they are NOT happy!!

I think most thai's have moved on from their traditional Buddhist beliefs of sufficiency and embraced a more Chinese inspired philosophy!!

to be rich is not only a chinese thing, its black, its jew, its american, its korean, its russian, its pretty universal. its true that the blatant pursuit of wealth can look comical and base, but those who do not need to fight as hard to live have the comfort of passing such judgement. if you were chinese and had to survive amidst 1.3 billion others, you'd soon realise that wealth gets you there and is the best insurance you can have. the chinese peasant has been ruled over, trampled on, abused throughout history, they know well enough the essence of survival.

if you were an urban chinese in shanghai or shandong or hong kong, you'd better have your wits about you or you are out on the street sleeping under a bridge, hungry and freezing, no such thing as retreating to your lush village feeding on abundant harvests of rice and banana while you sabai sabai away. people are all basically the same, they are just driven by circumstances which dictate how they need to behave in order to survive. over long periods of time, such circunstances shape their values and form their culture.

[axom_boy]

people are all basically the same, they are just driven by circumstances which dictate how they need to behave in order to survive. over long periods of time, such circunstances shape their values and form their culture.

if circumstances ONLY shape values & culture, then how would you justify the thai case of accumulating wealth!! no Thai is dying for want of food or other amenities.....

circumstances is only one of the factors maybe that dictate values......not all of it!!

when you are an poor female immigrant from isaan to bkk (suppose you have left home because of extreme poverty)....you can make some choices to make a living.......work hard in as a manual labor or take the easy road and become a bar girl......to me the decision that someone makes in a situation like this is what defines values!!

talking of wealth accumulation in thailand!! i wonder how many BMWs, Benz's, Jag's (anything other than a mid-segment toyota!!) are there in thailand??

Edited March 15, 2007 by axom_boy

[andook]

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

Would you mind clarifying this, please?

I wonder though how many of the poor in Thailand deserve to be paid a pittance for their labor. How union leaders who try to improve the situation in Thailand deserve to be shot, so that only about 3% of the labors in Thailand are members in unions.

How do rural poor deserve to be evicted from their ancestral land because somebody decides to declare areas natural reserves that haven't seen forest cover since decades, while at the same time the rich and powerful can destroy primary forests with impunity?

How do the poor deserve government schools that are miserable, while they cannot afford even half decent schooling for their children?

The poverty in Thailand, given Thailand's natural wealth, is a pure creation of a unequal system for the benefit of the rich.

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

Dont quite Know were you got you famous quote from (you sick Nazi F@#$) but I really hope you dont mean that stuff about the boot getting licked.

I can accept most things that offend - But your statement is well beyond me. I prey you dont know Shit from clay because if you do, we may all be in big trouble if people in power are like you.

I'm glad you made this statement here because if I had a few drinks with someone and they came out with something like that .............. well you work it out.

Welcome to the big, wide world, sparky. Sorry, but I don't drink down Khao San Rd way. But have a banana fritter and a SangSom coke on me, eh.....?

Your forefathers and my ancestors endured terrible hardships in standing up to despots and tyranny. In the last century alone, how many millions died fighting against the Nazi's, Commies; criminals; corrupt landowners; religious fundamentalists; etc., etc? They fought and died for the right, in your case; to send puerile drivel into cyberspace, and idly surf the Interweb to view Japanese girls shoot live squid from their doodahs, but that is not the point.

They in other words, stopped licking the boot of tyranny and fascism that was kicking them. They had the will and made the sacrifices to do that. Capice'????

Btw, you calling me a "Nazi" in a bar would be entertaining for the locals, Suzie.

Edited March 15, 2007 by andook

[Sing_Sling]

Who wants to be happy??

Is smile and happyness related?? Do you smile because you are happy?? maybe you smile because you don't want to loose face....maybe you smile because you are a braveheart!!

I would be happy (and smile all the time ) when I have enough resources with me to have what I want!! What I want might be defined by my value system!! you cant force it on me??

All the Chinese wants to do is to get rich at any cost (they even think of being rich in afterlife!!) thats there value system....so when they are not rich they are NOT happy!!

I think most thai's have moved on from their traditional Buddhist beliefs of sufficiency and embraced a more Chinese inspired philosophy!!

Ah, another refreshingly anti-Chinese racist rant. Brilliant deduction that only Chinese pursue wealth and are happy when they have attained it.

Bill Gates-Wong

Rupert Murdoch-Lee

Conrad Black-Sheng

Nelson Rockefeller-Tung

Elizabeth II Windsor-Lim

and the list of these hideously greedy, slimy Chinese exploiters of the poor goes on!

Get a life and stop making excuses why you are pathetic.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Sing_Sling

[Artfullmover]

What utter rubbish. Generally, poor people deserve to be just that.... And your silly liberal conscience won't help them either.

Would you mind clarifying this, please?

I wonder though how many of the poor in Thailand deserve to be paid a pittance for their labor. How union leaders who try to improve the situation in Thailand deserve to be shot, so that only about 3% of the labors in Thailand are members in unions.

How do rural poor deserve to be evicted from their ancestral land because somebody decides to declare areas natural reserves that haven't seen forest cover since decades, while at the same time the rich and powerful can destroy primary forests with impunity?

How do the poor deserve government schools that are miserable, while they cannot afford even half decent schooling for their children?

The poverty in Thailand, given Thailand's natural wealth, is a pure creation of a unequal system for the benefit of the rich.

"Everyone gets the government they deserve". Famous quote. They are poor simply because they have never learned to stop licking the boot thats kicking them. That the rural poor allow the venal corrupt arm of Bangkok to interfere with every aspect of their lives is a reflection on them, rather than Bangkok. The government do it simply because they can.

In this respect, I have a lot of respect for people in the South, who are sick of being brutalised, marginalised and ripped-off by Bangkok. And not happy being compensated with nationalistic brainwashing and cheap alcohol as a tranquiliser / pacifier.

Dont quite Know were you got you famous quote from (you sick Nazi F@#$) but I really hope you dont mean that stuff about the boot getting licked.

I can accept most things that offend - But your statement is well beyond me. I prey you dont know Shit from clay because if you do, we may all be in big trouble if people in power are like you.

I'm glad you made this statement here because if I had a few drinks with someone and they came out with something like that .............. well you work it out.

Welcome to the big, wide world, sparky. Sorry, but I don't drink down Khao San Rd way. But have a banana fritter and a SangSom coke on me, eh.....?

Your forefathers and my ancestors endured terrible hardships in standing up to despots and tyranny. In the last century alone, how many millions died fighting against the Nazi's, Commies; criminals; corrupt landowners; religious fundamentalists; etc., etc? They fought and died for the right, in your case; to send puerile drivel into cyberspace, and idly surf the Interweb to view Japanese girls shoot live squid from their doodahs, but that is not the point.

They in other words, stopped licking the boot of tyranny and fascism that was kicking them. They had the will and made the sacrifices to do that. Capice'????

Btw, you calling me a "Nazi" in a bar would be entertaining for the locals, Suzie.

Loved the crack about Kha San Rd and the Bannana fritter. Great stuff.

In all fairness I do believe I had that coming and I admit I was a out of place and layed it on a bit to strong.

On a positive side a least you dont know SH@T from clay.

Also thanks for the welcome to the big, wide world I feel overwhemed Im sure its going to just divine. Not all that sure Im going to fit in that well though, see I got this thing about women in army boots.

[longway]

Artfullmover,

I read the comment by 'andook' as implying that until the poor Thais stop accepting without question the inequalities imposed upon them by the rich, they won't be able to change a thing.

Overall, a very interesting debate to have read.

thats not what he said. in any case when thaksin for the first time paid attention to the needs of the rural poor did they not vote for him? i dont think they necessarily accept the inequlaities imposed on them, but the reality is that they dont have any choice but to live with the inequalities. thaksin was the best on offer, and even he had his own agenda.

andook seems to think they should engage in a guerrilla campaign and seize power before will he gives them his worthless 'respect'. will that really help the people in the north? get a grip.

there have been plenty of rebellions over the years, none have lasted. and even if one succeeds what makes u think it will make one iota of difference to the people in question.

what will really help them is access to education, healthcare, better infrastructure, and financial help. what doesnt help is offensive name-calling and making blanket statements designed to make the speaker feel big about himself.

just because andook says something doesnt make it true, its something he has yet to realise.

Edited March 15, 2007 by longway

[andook]

Artfullmover,

I read the comment by 'andook' as implying that until the poor Thais stop accepting without question the inequalities imposed upon them by the rich, they won't be able to change a thing.

Overall, a very interesting debate to have read.

thats not what he said. in any case when thaksin for the first time paid attention to the needs of the rural poor did they not vote for him? i dont think they necessarily accept the inequlaities imposed on them, but the reality is that they dont have any choice but to live with the inequalities. thaksin was the best on offer, and even he had his own agenda.

andook seems to think they should engage in a guerrilla campaign and seize power before will he gives them his worthless 'respect'. will that really help the people in the north? get a grip.

there have been plenty of rebellions over the years, none have lasted. and even if one succeeds what makes u think it will make one iota of difference to the people in question.

what will really help them is access to education, healthcare, better infrastructure, and financial help. what doesnt help is offensive name-calling and making blanket statements designed to make the speaker feel big about himself.

just because andook says something doesnt make it true, its something he has yet to realise.

Right. And how will the rural poor gain access to "education, healthcare, better infrastructure and financial help" then? Just sit there and wait for it to plop on their laps, perhaps...?

Btw, where have I advocated any "guerilla campaign to seize power?" I don't recall?

Rebellions that have lasted include independence (and not necessarily democracy) by countries like India; Vietnam; all of Europe, most of Asia; etc. Not forgetting the religious freedoms of those countries too. ie: Protestantism. separation of church from state, etc...?

I'm just saying things as I believe them to be. Me being honest with you might be the biggest favour anyone pays you today... Hope that makes you feel a bit bigger about yourself at least.