On 6/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, NanLaew said:

Correct, the US doesn't. But the Chinese do.

 

There is no oil in the middle of the South China East Sea. All the oil is on the periphery like in the coastal waters of Vietnam, Brunei, Indonesia and Philippines. That's the way oil basins work BTW. The UNCLOS declaration clarified the extents of continental claims beyond traditional territorial sea-surface measurements for a whole host of nations around the world such as Ghana and Cuba.

 

So why does China still want the 'worthless' middle bit?

Fishing

On 6/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, NanLaew said:

 

They never restricted navigation in the UN declaration because they had no legal grounds to do so. Then they built artificial islands on barely submerged reefs and subsequently declared otherwise based solely on the existence of these 'islands'.

There is still no restricted navigation, nor have they ever said there is. They have said don't bring warships into our territorial waters uninvited.

On 6/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, NanLaew said:

 

Vietnam has 37 natural islands with a nominal military presence and a flag on some of the biggest ones. I think the Philippines may have some as well including a sunken, rusted ship or two. Meanwhile, China, who previously had none, now have 5 man-made, heavily fortified and militarized ones with a flag. In the middle of nowhere.

I'd need a link to the 'nominal military presence' assertion. Plus one to the 'heavily fortified' accusation. Common knowledge is a lighthouse and two weather stations, plus a marine biology research centre. I do remember when the Guardian drew some armaments and aircraft on a satellite picture, but that was just funny. I guess some people swallowed it, that's how MSM plays.

On 6/23/2019 at 4:54 PM, NanLaew said:

 

Correct. The US Navy regularly sails Freedom of Navigation transits through the East Sea. Occasionally (and more frequently) they are joined by Japanese, Indian and Australian Navy vessels. Like the US, Japan, India and Australia have no claims there but they realize that neither do the Chinese.

So why not leave the argument to those parties that have stakes in the game?

4 minutes ago, Peterbkk99 said:

I have always wondered why Thailand does not show more solidarity with fellow ASEAN countries Vietnam and the Philippines on the South China Sea issue. Seems there is a disconnect with the photo. Does ASEAN mean anything at all?

 

The Philippines, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand ARE actually acting as a group. They are all pro-Beijing, pro-China.

It is Vietnam who is against China, it is Vietnam who is the odd one out. Yes, Vietnam should accept what the other ASEAN countries want.

And ASEAN countries want more trade with China. ASEAN countries don't want a war against China, because of this South China Sea thing.

5 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Yes, let Vietnam and China have their war. Winner takes the South China Sea.
The important thing is, is that WE don't get involved. Our soldiers are to be used to defend Europe and America. What goes on in Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East, let the locals fight it out amongst themselves.

China is unilaterally annexing international waters. If the U.S. doesn't get involved and they succeed, why wouldn't other countries do the same. Maybe the U.S. should lay claim to the entire northeastern Pacific Ocean? The U.S. state of Hawaii sits in the middle, with California to the east, and Alaska to the north.

Edited June 24, 20197 yr by Uptooyoo

1 hour ago, Uptooyoo said:

China is unilaterally annexing international waters. If the U.S. doesn't get involved and they succeed, why wouldn't other countries do the same. Maybe the U.S. should lay claim to the entire northeastern Pacific Ocean? The U.S. state of Hawaii sits in the middle, with California to the east, and Alaska to the north.

The US was involved in China's claim right from the start. In 1946 the US gave China 4 ships, and China sent 2 ships to claim the Paracels and another 2 ships to claim the Spratlys. China had to make the claims because the French were claiming the Paracels and the Spratyls as theirs.

 

Itu Alba, which was occupied by Japan during WW2, was renamed Taiping Island, after the Chinese name of the ship ROCS Tai Ping (formerly USS Decker) and the island is still occupied by the Republic of China (Taiwan) to this day.

 

A few months later, in 1947, China produced its eleven-dash-line claim over the South China Sea.

 

Too bad, in 1949, the Communists kicked the Nationalists out of Mainland China and established the People's Republic of China (PRC). The PRC had maintained the same eleven-dash-line claim by the ROC, but as Traubert had said, later removed 2 dashes in favour of Vietnam.

2 hours ago, Selatan said:

The US was involved in China's claim right from the start. In 1946 the US gave China 4 ships, and China sent 2 ships to claim the Paracels and another 2 ships to claim the Spratlys. China had to make the claims because the French were claiming the Paracels and the Spratyls as theirs.

 

Itu Alba, which was occupied by Japan during WW2, was renamed Taiping Island, after the Chinese name of the ship ROCS Tai Ping (formerly USS Decker) and the island is still occupied by the Republic of China (Taiwan) to this day.

 

A few months later, in 1947, China produced its eleven-dash-line claim over the South China Sea.

 

Too bad, in 1949, the Communists kicked the Nationalists out of Mainland China and established the People's Republic of China (PRC). The PRC had maintained the same eleven-dash-line claim by the ROC, but as Traubert had said, later removed 2 dashes in favour of Vietnam.

Thanks for putting up this post. This post, and the one from Traubert, shows the real history of China's claim to the South China Sea.
The truth, China had already claimed the South China Sea before Britain and France had turned up in the Far East during the 1800s. Had China formally declared ownership of the South China Sea to Britain and France back in the 1800s, well, there would be no dispute afterwards.

Mao Zedong won the Chinese civil war, and China changed it's name, from Republic of China to Peoples' Republic of China. Mao simply claimed that all land that was part of Republic of China was, from then onwards, part of Peoples' Republic of China.
 

4 hours ago, Uptooyoo said:

China is unilaterally annexing international waters. If the U.S. doesn't get involved and they succeed, why wouldn't other countries do the same. Maybe the U.S. should lay claim to the entire northeastern Pacific Ocean? The U.S. state of Hawaii sits in the middle, with California to the east, and Alaska to the north.

If Washington wants to claim ownership of the northeastern Pacific, let them. I don't see why European soldiers should fight against America, with the winner taking the the northeastern Pacific Ocean.

And let Canada dispute ownership of the Pacific with America, if it wants to. Canada itself was built on the mass theft of land by the French, I don't see why Britain should declare that France was wrong.

On 6/23/2019 at 12:17 AM, Uptooyoo said:

It's time for the U.S. Navy to sink Chinese fishing boats acting aggressively.

Don't you think this may be the responsibility of Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar, Phillipines, Indonesia, Malaysia? Start acting together as a team. Problem is the sellouts to China a now owned. Don't expect Thailand to have any balls in the situation. Maybe that will be a use for their new submarines. China is  a bully. If you don't stand up, you will be forever on your knees.

11 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

The Vietnamese, these people will never surrender. They'ill just carry on fighting.

I can respect that.

Thailand and Cambodia not.

11 hours ago, Peterbkk99 said:

I have always wondered why Thailand does not show more solidarity with fellow ASEAN countries Vietnam and the Philippines on the South China Sea issue. 

As with everything else in Thailand, it's about money.

Thailand probably has more generals than China. Not one of them probably has a clue about defending Thailand, the waters, or other Asean countries.

4 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

If Washington wants to claim ownership of the northeastern Pacific, let them. I don't see why European soldiers should fight against America, with the winner taking the the northeastern Pacific Ocean.

And let Canada dispute ownership of the Pacific with America, if it wants to. Canada itself was built on the mass theft of land by the French, I don't see why Britain should declare that France was wrong.

I wasn't being literal; I was giving an example of what would happen when countries reject international court rulings, such as China's refusal to accept the Hague's decision on their 9-dash-line claim, and resort to military means to establish their claims. When civil cooperation between countries break down, war becomes the only option...This should be a warning to those countries seeking to integrate their economies and political institutions with a communist government with absolutely no regard for the freedoms we take for granted and answerable to no one. Do you really want them to lead on the global stage?

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by Uptooyoo

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 10:52 AM, ChrisY1 said:

Vietnam probably is the only country to voice their concerns....Lao, Cambodia, Thailand and the Philipines have all been seduced by money from China....and China' land boundaries continue to grow unchecked.

Even Australia, the bastion of democracy (bulls__t), pussy foots about, says very little and does nothing.....well not exactly does nothing...China was gifted the port of Darwin for the next 97 years....all for $500m which has long gone with zero benefit!

I really didn't follow the Darwin Port fiasco so just read up on it now for its entirety. The Australian government needs to make legislation, turn it back around and kick those b-turds out under National Security. I loved Darwin when I went there in 93, but probably not now if it is loaded with Chinese.

On 6/23/2019 at 2:07 PM, Traubert said:

It was actually the Kuomintang, the later government of Taiwan, that drew the 11 dash line in 1947 and it was ratified by the UN post war after the Japanese were thrown out of Taiwan.

 

Zhou En Lai later struck out two of the dashes to cede the Gulf Of Tonkin to Vietnam, hence the 9 dash line.

 

It was only in the 1960's when oil (who'd have thought it) was potentially found under the SCS, that America (through the Philippines), the UK (through Brunei and Malaysia) and the French (through Vietnam) took any sort of interest at all.

 

It was a stalemate until UNCLOS was adopted in 1994 and then the oil greedy nations started making a din. Its nothing to do with sovereignty, it's all to do with oil.

 

China has never restricted navigation through the SCS, it was declared in the original agreement with the UN.

 

As to the shrieking about militarized islands in the SCS, Vietnam has 37, China has...........5.

 

And the US has no claim on anything in the region.

So sinking vessels in international waters isn't restricting navigation?

16 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Yes, let Vietnam and China have their war. Winner takes the South China Sea.
The important thing is, is that WE don't get involved. Our soldiers are to be used to defend Europe and America. What goes on in Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East, let the locals fight it out amongst themselves.

Don't get involved in in the South China Sea to defend Europe? It's being invaded by millions fleeing poor African countries now. European militaries sit idle waiting for an armed incursion, but the enemy is wise. The enemy use's European liberal-democratic values of compassion against them. It's best to invade with women and children first then send for the men later. In a generation, Europe, with its aging domestic population and low birth rates, will be unrecognizable.  Churches will disappear as Mosques rise in their place. The same can be said for America too, only difference is the invaders are coming from all corners of the world.

Edited June 25, 20197 yr by Uptooyoo