Thailand Ranks Next To Worst Corruption-Plagued Asian Economies

[Laulen]

We will just have to see if the temptation for corruption by officials and others with "power" slowly recedes.

As another poster here has already mentioned, enforcement of finely crafted anti-corruption laws and regulations is ESSENTIAL if business confidence in Thailand is to be restored to a higher level than it currently is.

Any chance that the Buddhist ethics of the 'middle way' might play a greater role in business dealings rather than the all too familiar Chinese habit of 'grengai'?

[keda]

The survey must have been conducted over the course of last year when Thailand still had Thaksin as the prime minister. So I'm not surprised by the result. His administration was generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history.

Anyway, I believe there will be less corruption in the country once the new constitution goes into effect.

Yeah because there was little corruption before Thaksin, and the last 5 or so constitutions have always eliminated corruption.

Face it. It's endemic here and won't be disappearing anytime soon.

I suspect the 'new' constitution will have a clause allowing the military to remain close enough to Bkk to step in when the people decide they've elected yet another bunch of duds, or need another change of political scenery.

[keda]

The problem here is never "new ideas" or "regulations". There is always plenty of those here. What is lacking is implementation. The Constitution is worth nothing without the actions to back the words. No need to get defensive about your English. Seems fine to me.

So why shoot it down right now when it has not even taken off the ground yet? Why don't we just wait and see what happens in the next year or two before we start moaning as usual? Why don't we give it, the new constitution, and these people a chance? There will still be plenty of time and opportuinites for anyone to moan.

What would have to be written into a constitution- not a legal code but a constitution, that would prevent corruption? There is already a legal code that forbids corruption (by definition, corruption is illegal isn't it?). What can a constitution do to ensure that people don't break the law?

No magic wand to eliminate or even significantly reduce corruption, which appears to be the cement holding Thai society together.

If anybody recalls one Marcos of the PI, as corrupt as they came, it was said that during his reign when a ship came in a portion of its cargo would routinely disappear, nobody knew where or how but it did, it wasn't questioned, and that's how things worked. But under Aquinas, who succeeded Marcos, it was said that when a ship came in, it and its cargo vanished, and nobody saw or knew anything, because she was weak and had no control.

Corruption is not a patent of the 3rd World, or necessarily an intolerable evil.

[Johpa]

The survey must have been conducted over the course of last year when Thailand still had Thaksin as the prime minister. So I'm not surprised by the result. His administration was generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history.

Anyway, I believe there will be less corruption in the country once the new constitution goes into effect.

:D :D

And some belive in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Someday Thailand will grow up and mature like the United State or Britain and learn that all propper corruption is much better off being hidden under the smoke and mirror guise of corporate lobbying, let the laws of the land steal for you and nobody cares.

By the way, news story going around today on some Mexican version of Thaksin, Mr. Slim (and I kid you not) whose monopolies are about to let him overtake Billy Boy Gates as the worlds richest man. Like Thaksin, he monopolized telecommunications after privatization of that public entity in Mexico.

[keda]

I'd agree that tagging Thaksin's government as `generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history' is fair comment. The financial stakes were much higher during Thaksin's period in office than they have ever been before. Poor corporate governance and weak financial system regulation had much more to do with the financial collapse post June 7, 1997. Corruption was a minor component, although it's hard to separate the two completely. Bangkok Bank of Corruption, oops, I mean Commerce, contributed to events a year later with its 1996 collapse with $3 bln in debt, much of it allegedly embezzled even tho Bank of Thailand officials appointed Krirkkiat Jalichandra from their ranks to help sort out liquidity problems in 1986. Krirkkiat, of coursse, has been convicted to serve 50 years in jail, not that he's ever likely to see the inside of one....Now that's another chapter in the story that will keep Thailand ranking high in the corruption stakes, regardless of who's in power, and continue to hinder it's economic development for years to come, regardless of what the next constitution says or even the ones after that....

I am not a Toxinophile by any means, but what did the Thaksin government have to do with the 1997 collapse, the BkkBk swindle, or indeed any other high end scandal that occured several years before it even took office? Despise the chap if you wish, but there are enough legitimate examples of Toxinilogy to choose from without bandying the absurd.

Snarl away, but note also that Thaksin was the first Prime Minister in the history of Thailand, to lead an elected government through a full term of office.

[bingobongo]

what a truly magical place, where fairy dust and dreams are just that.....maybe thais are realizing (hence the unhappiness) that the coup has really turned into a pumpkin............

[keda]

The problem with corruption in Thailand is that it is so blatant. To see senior police openly taking payments from bar owners in Pattaya with no shame that anybody can see the transaction. I saw it regularly.

Who am I going to report corruption to? The police???

Peter

5555 - Yeah, go on, I'm right (a long way) behind you.

[brahmburgers]

We are currently residing in a country without a constitution. I don't believe the Constitution being drafted now will be voted in - if offered as an election option to the populace. I also don't think there will be elections here before the 1 year anniversary of the Sept coup. None of the above makes a whole lot of difference one way or another. Corruption is ingrained in the Thai psyche.

Just one of a swath of indications: I work as a realtor with a Thai partner. He often wants to tell clients a higher asking price (higher than the seller's) and put the gravy in his pocket. I tell him that's unethical. He can't comprehend what I'm trying to say. In his view, it's simply how the game is played.

In the bigger picture, Thaksin's greatest legacy to Thailand is; CORRUPTION AND LIES GET YOU RICHER. In a country that worships money at least as much as anything else, Thaksin's immense wealth and power were enough to cement his exalted status. He's influenced at least one generation of young people in to believing that no amount of wealth is too much, and that it doesn't matter how its acquired.

[gummy]

We are currently residing in a country without a constitution. I don't believe the Constitution being drafted now will be voted in - if offered as an election option to the populace. I also don't think there will be elections here before the 1 year anniversary of the Sept coup. None of the above makes a whole lot of difference one way or another. Corruption is ingrained in the Thai psyche.

Just one of a swath of indications: I work as a realtor with a Thai partner. He often wants to tell clients a higher asking price (higher than the seller's) and put the gravy in his pocket. I tell him that's unethical. He can't comprehend what I'm trying to say. In his view, it's simply how the game is played.

In the bigger picture, Thaksin's greatest legacy to Thailand is; CORRUPTION AND LIES GET YOU RICHER. In a country that worships money at least as much as anything else, Thaksin's immense wealth and power were enough to cement his exalted status. He's influenced at least one generation of young people in to believing that no amount of wealth is too much, and that it doesn't matter how its acquired.

I agree and just think how much better at it he could become if he spent some time in Nigeria ! Thailand is way behind if you include most African countries in the corruption "League" table.

[Johpa]

In the bigger picture, Thaksin's greatest legacy to Thailand is; CORRUPTION AND LIES GET YOU RICHER. In a country that worships money at least as much as anything else, Thaksin's immense wealth and power were enough to cement his exalted status. He's influenced at least one generation of young people in to believing that no amount of wealth is too much, and that it doesn't matter how its acquired.

That corruption and lies pave the road to wealth in Thailand has been a cornerstone of Bangkok society since the days of Thaksin's birth. Thaksin's legacy was simply that if you try to over-monopolize wealth and power to the point of rising above all the other members of the elite, including but not limited to the First Estate, then those people will collectively pool their power together and have you removed. After that, it will be back to business as usual.

Even the most corrupt elements of the Bangkok elite adhere to the maxim of that great American Prophet, Lenny the Bruce, here paraphrased for the sakes of the Mods: There is some doggy doo doo I shall not eat.

[John K]

I tend to this report is a bit deceiving. The information must be post dated a bit. It would be nice to know when the snapshot was taken.

[Naam]

The survey must have been conducted over the course of last year when Thailand still had Thaksin as the prime minister. So I'm not surprised by the result. His administration was generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history.

Anyway, I believe there will be less corruption in the country once the new constitution goes into effect.

:D :D

And some belive in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

not to forget Santa Claus

[ThaiGoon]

So it's ridiculous to even believe that the amount of corruption in Thailand will be reduced after the new constitution goes into effect? Wow, interesting.

Ideas like the prime minister could only be in office for two terms or eitght years, more power to NCCC and AEC, easier for the public to scrutinize the gov't officials and report any finidings to AEC and NCCC, easier for the house of representatives to check and balance the gov't, more transparency in fundings of gov't projects etc have all been reported to be included in the new constitution. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head. If any of you are interested, I'm sure you can find it out in more detail yourself.

All these ideas represent a good step towards reducing the amount of corruption in Thailand. It will be something new and more effective than what had been in the past. So yeah, I'm optimistic. And I don't think that my belief is in anyway beyond the realm of possibility. However, I'm not naive enough to not realize that it will take time before the amount of corruption in Thailand will be reduced to an acceptable level, but this gov't has shown that they are serious in solving this particular problem. So it can and will be done.

[The Skipper]

A lack integrity or morals is the problem.

Everybody is willing to lie and cheat, from the Prime Minister, down to the street vendor, selling bottled water.

If they can screw somebody, they will.

[andook]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

[ThaiGoon]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose? But you felt you had the right to be a snob because the inventors whom you will probabaly never get to associate with in your life happened to have same skin color as you? Interesting.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[andook]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose?

The Baited Forum Hook. [pat. pending]

Yourself?

[mumbu]

I'd agree that tagging Thaksin's government as `generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history' is fair comment. The financial stakes were much higher during Thaksin's period in office than they have ever been before. Poor corporate governance and weak financial system regulation had much more to do with the financial collapse post June 7, 1997. Corruption was a minor component, although it's hard to separate the two completely. Bangkok Bank of Corruption, oops, I mean Commerce, contributed to events a year later with its 1996 collapse with $3 bln in debt, much of it allegedly embezzled even tho Bank of Thailand officials appointed Krirkkiat Jalichandra from their ranks to help sort out liquidity problems in 1986. Krirkkiat, of coursse, has been convicted to serve 50 years in jail, not that he's ever likely to see the inside of one....Now that's another chapter in the story that will keep Thailand ranking high in the corruption stakes, regardless of who's in power, and continue to hinder it's economic development for years to come, regardless of what the next constitution says or even the ones after that....

I am not a Toxinophile by any means, but what did the Thaksin government have to do with the 1997 collapse, the BkkBk swindle, or indeed any other high end scandal that occured several years before it even took office? Despise the chap if you wish, but there are enough legitimate examples of Toxinilogy to choose from without bandying the absurd.

Snarl away, but note also that Thaksin was the first Prime Minister in the history of Thailand, to lead an elected government through a full term of office.

[ThaiGoon]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose?

The Baited Forum Hook. [pat. pending]

Yourself?

I'm a PhD. student majoring in electrical engineering. So I'm pretty sure even at the moment I graduate, I'll contribute something to this world in terms of invention more than you ever will.

But I still won't be a moronic snob spouting that kind of shit to bash and generalize an entire race like you just did though.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose?

The Baited Forum Hook. [pat. pending]

Yourself?

Also if someone is not a moron who never invented anything in his life, he would know better. He would know that acting like a self righteous snob while he's never invented anything himself is pretty ironic and extremely stupid.

Edited March 14, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[mumbu]

I'd agree that tagging Thaksin's government as `generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history' is fair comment. The financial stakes were much higher during Thaksin's period in office than they have ever been before. Poor corporate governance and weak financial system regulation had much more to do with the financial collapse post June 7, 1997. Corruption was a minor component, although it's hard to separate the two completely. Bangkok Bank of Corruption, oops, I mean Commerce, contributed to events a year later with its 1996 collapse with $3 bln in debt, much of it allegedly embezzled even tho Bank of Thailand officials appointed Krirkkiat Jalichandra from their ranks to help sort out liquidity problems in 1986. Krirkkiat, of coursse, has been convicted to serve 50 years in jail, not that he's ever likely to see the inside of one....Now that's another chapter in the story that will keep Thailand ranking high in the corruption stakes, regardless of who's in power, and continue to hinder it's economic development for years to come, regardless of what the next constitution says or even the ones after that....

I am not a Toxinophile by any means, but what did the Thaksin government have to do with the 1997 collapse, the BkkBk swindle, or indeed any other high end scandal that occured several years before it even took office? Despise the chap if you wish, but there are enough legitimate examples of Toxinilogy to choose from without bandying the absurd.

Snarl away, but note also that Thaksin was the first Prime Minister in the history of Thailand, to lead an elected government through a full term of office.

I agree. Moreover, there were no substantial banking scandals in Thailand during Thaksin administration. Once again,

there is no proven case so far of direct Thaksin's involvement in a substantial corruption scheme. The process of creation of a new constitution is corrupt itself with junta totally controlling who is in charge of the process. Moreover, junta is not going to "return the power to the people" after one year as promised. The current government which continue to assure that this is the case will be gone. I honestly even do not follow the details of drafting, since nothing good can possibly emerge from the current process the way it organized. I can imagine that some of the Thais were deceived by a massive anti_Thaksin propaganda before the coup but how foreigners fell in this not very sofisticated trap is beyond me.

[andook]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose?

The Baited Forum Hook. [pat. pending]

Yourself?

Also if someone is not a moron who never invented anything in his life, he would know better. He would know that acting like a self righteous snob who never invented anything himself is ironic and extrememly stupid.

Getting over your juvenile tendency to take things so personally will make you a much better person. After this occurs, I'm sure you will be able to contribute more than just impotent rage to your beloved country. Good Luck.

[cdnvic]

Corruption is a way of life here. Same as in most "Industrialising" (read: Third World) countries. Basically, if you've never had the discipline (usually dictated by hardship) to invent anything by yourselves, then you'll never appreciate anything thats given to you, or learn how to use it properly.

So may I ask what you yourself have invented? Nothing I suppose?

The Baited Forum Hook. [pat. pending]

Yourself?

Also if someone is not a moron who never invented anything in his life, he would know better. He would know that acting like a self righteous snob while he's never invented anything himself is pretty ironic and extremely stupid.

I appreciate the fact that you want to defend your homeland, but the name calling and belligerance is out of line. If you think you have to rise to the bait everytime people make what are usually valid comments that may not always portray Thailand in the best light then you will burn out fast trying to keep up.

If you want to have reasoned discussions with people then you'd be an interesting addition to the mix. If on the other hand you wish to respond to every criticism of Thailand by calling people stupid, or moron, then you don't do yourself or your country any favours.

[ThaiGoon]

I appreciate the fact that you want to defend your homeland, but the name calling and belligerance is out of line. If you think you have to rise to the bait everytime people make what are usually valid comments that may not always portray Thailand in the best light then you will burn out fast trying to keep up.

If you want to have reasoned discussions with people then you'd be an interesting addition to the mix. If on the other hand you wish to respond to every criticism of Thailand by calling people stupid, or moron, then you don't do yourself or your country any favours.

All right. Fair enough. Sorry for the outbursts...

[mumbu]

Let me add one more thing here. When Thaksin came to power, I absolutely hated him. Because he immediately started a lot of changes some of them were quite painful and some I simply did not understand. Only with time I start to appreciate what he is doing and how unusually bold he is. The irony is that the man who was a head of the party "Thai Rak Thai" turned out to be the most cosmopolitan man in Thailand! If you talk to pretty much any Thai, they will tell you right upfront that in Thailand everything of any value should be under Thais control. The very fact of selling such a huge corporation as Shin to Singapore is absolutely unthinkable for many Thais and probably perceived as an act of corruption itself (of course, the fact that it was tax free for Thaksin's family does not help either). Nevertheless, according to experts who looked into the deal, there is nothing illegal in it (except, perhaps , of minor technicalities). There is a myth of big corruption of Thaksin's government.

Whether there is something that can be proven in courts (and the current government insists on that, since they understand that any other way may return to them as a boomerang)remains to be seen.

Edited March 14, 2007 by mumbu

[LomSak27]

"The survey must have been conducted over the course of last year when Thailand still had Thaksin as the prime minister. So I'm not surprised by the result. His administration was generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history. "

Thanks for the laugh to start my day TG. I find people who go ballistic about Thaksin have generally only lived in LOS during the Thaksin regime, they know no other so it is easy to make blanket statements like above. Sure he had a corrupt regime but the most corrupt in thai history? You are in deep water there, I don't think of him as much more corrupt than any in the last 20 years that I know about. Can any group be more corrupt than the ones in 97 when the meltdown occured ? I think not. Old timers who have mostly gone to that great chrome pole palace in the sky will tell you the Phao regime stands heads aboove all the rest in post WWII history. I can't comment there I wasn't born yet.

Sadly last rainy season a number of opposition (democrat party) pols started making the statement that -everything had been fine until four years ago- ... ahh so no corruption or managable corruption until Thaksin. It was from that statement that I had a real sinking feeling. So much for anything substantive being done about it. I expect that all that will occur is a ritual cleansing of Thaksin and cronies. Corruption will be blamed on them and the Democrats can get back to being the democrat party - known for big city, big business and corruption. Right that last word is CORRUPTION.

A good way to look at it is through an even more corrupt country - When Marcos was removed did that remove corruption from the PI? Did it make a substantive change? Or did things go on like they had, remove one despot and back to normal ...

[Prakanong]

As for the part of the constitution limiting a PM to two terms or 8 years as reducing corruption I fail to see how.

Thaksin was the only PM to see out a full term and be re-elected and there was plenty of corruption before him.

Look at Chavalit and earlier "Generals". Just how much did they make out of the Baht devaluation and drugs?

The only biggie ever convicted was Sanan if I remember correctly.

[ThaiGoon]

As for the part of the constitution limiting a PM to two terms or 8 years as reducing corruption I fail to see how.

Thaksin was the only PM to see out a full term and be re-elected and there was plenty of corruption before him.

Look at Chavalit and earlier "Generals". Just how much did they make out of the Baht devaluation and drugs?

The only biggie ever convicted was Sanan if I remember correctly.

As an old saying goes, "absolue power corrupts absolutely", the longer you're in power, the more likely you will be corrupt. You actually incidentally brought up Thaksin's reign in power as a good example of how right the saying is. The longer Thaksin was in power, the more invincible he felt. He planned to stay in power for a long long time. The limited terms will help make sure that everything won't be rotten to the degree that it was.

[blaze]

The survey must have been conducted over the course of last year when Thailand still had Thaksin as the prime minister. So I'm not surprised by the result. His administration was generally considered the most corrupt ever in the entire Thai history.

Anyway, I believe there will be less corruption in the country once the new constitution goes into effect.

Yeah because there was little corruption before Thaksin, and the last 5 or so constitutions have always eliminated corruption.

Face it. It's endemic here and won't be disappearing anytime soon.

I suspect the 'new' constitution will have a clause allowing the military to remain close enough to Bkk to step in when the people decide they've elected yet another bunch of duds, or need another change of political scenery.

It won't be a giant step that the military will have to make either- this morning's Bangkok Post editorial came the closest yet to saying, folks, we was suckered. While we ('we' here, I think referring to the media and a handful of acadmics)were focusing on the constitution the military was cementing its grip on power in the long term. The writer did not add that a major distraction has been the attention on Taksin's misdeeds. He didn't need to.

Edited March 14, 2007 by blaze

[cdnvic]

As an old saying goes, "absolue power corrupts absolutely", the longer you're in power, the more likely you will be corrupt. You actually incidentally brought up Thaksin's reign in power as a good example of how right the saying is. The longer Thaksin was in power, the more invincible he felt. He planned to stay in power for a long long time. The limited terms will help make sure that everything won't be rotten to the degree that it was.

I dislike term limits because they're undemocratic. On the other hand, maybe enforced regime change is needed to avoid the necessity of coups.

Limit it to only a single term though, and you make rulers less accountable.

Edited March 14, 2007 by cdnvic